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Trinkets should have replaced sightstone

ModKnightsKemplar·Nov 29, 2016·9 votes·594 views

Sightstone only exists because it was introduced at a time when supports could still buy green wards. It is a replacement for green wards.

In the current game, trinkets have replaced green wards, and therefore, sightstone could easily be removed from the game if the trinkets were balanced around that. Actually, when trinkets were first introduced, many people were ignoring sightstone because yellow trinket was enough vision. Instead of playing into that natural evolution of the vision game, Riot nerfed yellow trinket. I still don't know why.

I think that if yellow trinket were buffed again, vision could become a true team objective. Obviously, some other balance would need to be done around the lack of sightstone (likely changes to the three gold gen/sightstone upgrades), but I truly think that would be healthier for support and healthier for the game.

Since there is so much discussion about the support position and all, I thought this might be a good time to revisit this discussion. Thoughts?

17 Comments

GodhriNov 30, 20163 votes

YES! Way back when yellow trinkets were introduced, I suggested something similar and people shot me down. I am glad I am not alone in this perspective. Vision control is clearly a team role that is independent of the support role. I think this would pave the way for more support items and move us away from these ridiculous "damage-based" supports like Brand who do more than the ADC lol.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 30, 20162 votes

I think it could be a really important step to fixing support.

They introduced trinkets to try to turn support into something other than a ward-bot, then they nerfed them until sighstone was still needed... so support is still largely a ward-bot. Makes no sense.

Yeah, I've seen a number of threads about it over the last year or two. Join me in keeping the discussion going with anyone else who turns up; if we keep it up long enough, we might tempt Meddler to respond about this. I'd love Riot feedback about this particular issue.

Shuyin178Nov 30, 20163 votes

Sightstone should still exist because Yellow Trinkets don't last as long and you don't get as many of them. In addition, if you have a sightstone then you can also have access to the red sweeper to help clear out vision around objectives.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 30, 20162 votes

You didn't read the thread...

Yellow trink got nerfed to its current state. IF THEY BUFFED IT, then there could easily be enough wards on the map to remove sightstone. Like, you know, when yellow was introduced. It was like that.

Yes, I'm aware that could result in one less red trinket. That depends on balance, though, and I'd like to see more variation than what we have now.

SilverjustNov 30, 20161 votes

I think supports should be able to clear wards next to warding, the only problem with sightstone is, that it is "expencive" for a support and heavily delays every support build. What if sightstone would be cheaper for supports only? I think this should solve most problems.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 30, 20162 votes

I agree that could help.

I was actually thinking this morning about how it would affect the game to put mana regen on it, since they were trying (at least for awhile) to link supports to that stat. I have also considered what would happen if they discounted some support items for players who already bought sightstone. It's a drastic approach, but I don't see a lot of harm on the face of it.

The problem with just lowering the price is this; what mechanism do you use? Are you actually going to have different mechanisms in place for what position you called? Cause I REALLY don't like that. To me, that crosses the line from "supporting the meta" to "enforcing the meta" and I'm not liking it too much. How else could you do that, though?

SilverjustNov 30, 20161 votes

I thought about linking it to a passive on the support-starting-items. Linking it to a position would be really bad.

I dont like manareg on sightstone, because tanky supports cant really use it, and every champ needs a different amount of manaregen. But maybe make an equivaltent of rubysightstone that has manareg or a little bit of ap

Mole LordNov 30, 20162 votes

upvotes vigorously

GodhriNov 30, 20161 votes

Personally, I find it strange that they make control wards inaccessible after you reach max items or have 6 slots filled in. I think it should be incorporated into an item AS WELL AS being available for purchase individually.

But that's besides the point of this thread. I definitely agree with you.

SilverjustNov 30, 20161 votes

how abot you could store a bought control ward in the sightstone or trinket

SilverjustNov 30, 20161 votes

I think Sightstone would be less of a problem if it would costs less for supports

But I think supports should place wards and clear wards

OglafNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think Sightstone would be less of a problem if it would costs less for supports

It doesn't need to cost less.

It needs to do more, stat-wise.

SilverjustNov 30, 20161 votes

If it would cost less, you could buy the stats you need instead and get the item you want earlier. The only problem then would be in the lategame when it tkes a complete itemslot. I would like more lategame options like the rubysightstone for that.

Ultimate DeadpooNov 30, 20161 votes

One possible idea is to have three slots for vision items. One for a sightstone, one for a control ward, and one for a trinket. This way everyone can buy a sightstone without sacrificing a damage slot, making warding finally everyone's responsibility instead of just the supports responsibility.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 30, 20161 votes

I don't know what advantage that has over just buffing yellow trink though. Both ideas have the same effect; let vision become a team game and disentangle it form support. Removing sightstone has the advantage of being the simpler option there.

ErockandrollNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't know what advantage that has over just buffing yellow trink though. Both ideas have the same effect; let vision become a team game and disentangle it form support. Removing sightstone has the advantage of being the simpler option there.

I'm not sure if Riot really intends for vision to lean on the support role. However, Riot really won't afford to buff the trinket wards, out of fear of it completely invalidating the Jungler's ability to gank.

As such, the trinket ward scales up with level in usefulness. Which would be the complete opposite side of the spectrum, as Supports tend to have the lowest level. That would give the support the worse ability to ward, the ADC wouldn't fair much better, and neither of the two should be face checking.

If I recall correctly, Supports historically invested in wards because they were the least item dependent. (Part of the reason why I don't actually mind investing in the sight stone.) And even for the slightly more item reliant champs, I rarely find that sightstone delays me, ever since they introduced the Eye items. Given that the combination of the gold item and sight stone gives reasonable if modest stats, at a decent cost. while freeing up an item slot.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 30, 20161 votes

None of what you are saying is wrong. Your analysis is correct and complete.

The problem I have is that support is still not as effective as the other roles. I believe the reason it is underplayed is because support is, honestly, less fun than the other roles, on average. The playerbase for support (which includes me, just to be clear) is 100% people who enjoy a particular playstyle so much that they are willing to do it despite the fact that it often #feelsbad.

Your analysis doesn't address that. As I've referenced elsewhere, I am of the opinion that drastic action is needed to remedy that. If we keep the status quo, I think it's worse for the game. It's time to take some chances with the design space that supports occupy. We need to change the rules of the game.

In other words, I want to make changes that wreck your complete, correct anaylsis. We've reached a sort of "local minimum" with game balance around support (I'm using thermodynamics language here because I think it applies). Small changes in either direction will make it worse. But I think a more "global minimum" exists. In other words, I think a better solution exists, but we need to perturb the system more in order to get there. Small changes aren't enough anymore.

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