All of the class updates have been failures.

lolipopevelynn··25 votes·2,170 views

Honestly, what has even been the point? Lets start with the first class update, juggernaut. Mordekaiser Skarner were so overtuned that they had to be gutted in a slaughterhouse somewhere, so now despite their reworks they are in the exact same spot they were previously. Mordekaiser in particular is in a pretty bad place and is in desperate need of a full VGU. Garen came out pretty much the same, and Darius was clearly overturned and still is. He did not need changes, but hey riot decided to buff the hell out of him anyway.

Next is the marksmen update. Graves was admittedly the most unique change for this game in its history as it added a reload mechanic, but guess what? He was also overtuned, severely overtuned. Everyone else did not get unique mechanics like graves, all that happened was riot decided to enhance what was already good and unique about the champ in the first place. KogMaw for example was so stupidly overpowered that you guys actually decided to REVERT his rework. This is something riot doesn't do, so the fact that a champion rework failed so hard that they had to swallow their pride and revert it speaks for itself. Tristana got nerfed and is still in need of buffs an entire year later and Caitlyn went from a balanced adc to an oppressive piece of shit, no nerfs for her in sight. And guess what, giving her more traps and guaranteed headshot crits does not make her anymore unique than she already was. And despite all this, Jinx and Vayne still remain as the go to ADC picks if you want to actually carry, kinda like they were before the update.

And then we come to the mage update. Take a guess what happened. That's right, Malzahar overtuned and then nerfed into the ground to his pre reworked winrate and pickrate. What was the point of even touching him? Syndra actually needs nerfs but is getting buffed because of the fetish riot has with true damage. not that I have a problem with that as I love syndra, but the point remains the same. Kassadin rofl they basically deleted this champ and Velkoz started melting teams even HARDER than before despite the community begging riot not to touch him.

And finally we have the assassin update, which was just one massive nerf unless your name is Khazix or Rengar . Have no idea why they got special treatment, but they did.

The point of these updates were to add uniqueness to the classes/roles, but all that really happened was an enhancement of what ALREADY made them unique. Because of this many champs ended up being overtuned and forced to be nerfed, some of which turned out being WORSE than what they were previously.

49 Comments

ShadowParker14 votes

I wouldn't consider any of the class updated failures and here's why:

The Juggernaut update sucked. But it wasn't a failure in that Riot did learn a lot from it, so it was more of a learning experience. Plus, Darius, as rage inducing as he is, was a success compared to his previous form.

The Adc update did bring along a massively overtuned Graves, but he now is a very unique champion that is rather balanced right now. The Adc update as well brought healthy changes to champions like Quinn and Miss Fortune. Kog' Maw was a failure, but as a whole, it was successful.

The mage update was a success in that it brought along healthy changes to Cassiopeia and Zyra. Vladimir was overtuned, but he's far healthier then he was. Vel' Koz shouldn't of been reworked, but it was an easy fix that they partially reverted. Overall, another success.

The assassin update has been rough, but that's solely because of the different playstyles they introduced. Generally when they rework a champion, they don't create an entirely new playstyle. Ex. Kat, Talon. Overall they're far cooler and have a higher skill ceiling. Rengar is clearly overtuned but has some counterplay compared to before. The leblanc update I'Lloyd admit could use a shorter delay ,but I believe it's still healthier after some tuning.

I disagree with your post whole heartedly OP. I'd rather have class updates then another partial(failure) rework like Shen's.

lolipopevelynn3 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't consider any of the class updated failures and here's why:

The Juggernaut update sucked. But it wasn't a failure in that Riot did learn a lot from it, so it was more of a learning experience. Plus, Darius, as rage inducing as he is, was a success compared to his previous form.

The Adc update did bring along a massively overtuned Graves, but he now is a very unique champion that is rather balanced right now. The Adc update as well brought healthy changes to champions like Quinn and Miss Fortune. Kog' Maw was a failure, but as a whole, it was successful.

The mage update was a success in that it brought along healthy changes to Cassiopeia and Zyra. Vladimir was overtuned, but he's far healthier then he was. Vel' Koz shouldn't of been reworked, but it was an easy fix that they partially reverted. Overall, another success.

The assassin update has been rough, but that's solely because of the different playstyles they introduced. Generally when they rework a champion, they don't create an entirely new playstyle. Ex. Kat, Talon. Overall they're far cooler and have a higher skill ceiling. Rengar is clearly overtuned but has some counterplay compared to before. The leblanc update I'Lloyd admit could use a shorter delay ,but I believe it's still healthier after some tuning.

I disagree with your post whole heartedly OP. I'd rather have class updates then another partial(failure) rework like Shen's.

  1. they didn't learn jack from the juggernaut update because they made the exact same mistakes for the mage, adc, and assassin updates.

  2. graves was unique, but then they added Jhin . In all honestly graves was a guinea pig to test if jhin would actually work out. Quinn is in the exact same spot she was before, only picked top and even there she is rarely picked because so many other champs are better for that lane and the team. Your remark about kog makes no sense whatsoever. How can he be a failure and be successful at the same time? Pick one.

  3. cass was a fucking roller coaster are you serious lol? She started off being the WEAKEST of the mages for the update, then she went to being the STRONGEST, and now she is weak again. Just go look at her champion.gg winrate graph. It literally looks like a camel.

  4. the problem with the assassin update is that if they are buffed they will do too much damage while being highly mobile, and if nerfed they will basically be weaker versions of the fighter class.

TTK Dreadnought6 votes

they didn't learn jack from the juggernaut update because they made the exact same mistakes for the mage, adc, and assassin updates.

care to elaborate?

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

he did in the op if you read it

ShadowParker4 votes
  1. What mistakes have they repeated? They learned to not work on champions that clearly need a VGU (Skarner and Morde).

  2. Just because another champion uses an ammo system, doesn't mean Graves isn't unique. They are far different champions. Jinx and Jhin both have similar w's, yet they're completely different champions. Just because one part of a kit is similar to another, doesn't mean the champions are similar. Quinn has always had a small player base, she's far more unique and she isn't riddled with bugs. The goal with the roster projects isn't to increase popularity, but to make champions unique and standout.

Kog'Maw was a failure. Doesn't mean the whole roster project was.

Cass in her previous state was garbage. She was fixed from the mess Stashu left. She got buffed before people got a chance to really play her. That was Riots fault, not her kit. Also, she's perfectly fine if you take the time to learn her. She's a difficult champion to play effectively.

Assassin's are also single target. So while they will get the job and get in and out, they are also squishy and have counterplay to them. It's easier for them to gate their stats while they have all the delays.

What made assassin's more feast or famine then what they were before the update?

Teridax683 votes

I agree with this, and I don't think you can really brand an entire class update a failure, simply because it produced one or a few not-so-successful reworks. I can agree that none of the updates were perfect successes, since they introduced some issues and sometimes didn't achieve their goals (the marksman class still has no real differentiation, for example, and juggernauts still have large health issues), but they all produced net positive contributions to the game. Riot probably still has a bit more to learn for their future class updates, and I do think the concept of a class update is inherently imperfect (it's about reworking a ton of stuff at once in relatively little time and with few resources compared to a full VGU, so none of the results are likely to be absolutely flawless), but it's allowed the game to improve by leaps and bounds, when previously the same amount of progress would have potentially taken years to accomplish.

LankPants3 votes

The mage update was a success in that it brought along healthy changes to Cassiopeia and Zyra.

The changes to Zyra were not healthy. The main legacy of those changes was killing midlane Zyra. Mid Zyra is completely unplayable right now despite how many people told them that they wanted mid Zyra far more than support.

IllegalBagel7 votes

sad part is you're right about most of this

Jbels3 votes

{quoted}

sad part is you're right about most of this

and which part is he wrong about?

morris12 votes

For one, the Syndra changes are nerfs, with compensation but nerfs nonetheless. If you haven't noticed, the W will no longer pick up 3 spheres which will make 7 sphere ults much harder to set up. LeBlanc also benefited from the update, and despite the bias, so did Shaco (rest in peace AD build though). But I'm still not disproving his main point.

EDIT: And yes I know these last two are going to get butchered, it was to be expected.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8uGlbWz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T17:44:21.341+0000)

For one, the Syndra changes are nerfs, with compensation but nerfs nonetheless. If you haven't noticed, the W will no longer pick up 3 spheres which will make 7 sphere ults much harder to set up. LeBlanc also benefited from the update, and despite the bias, so did Shaco (rest in peace AD build though). But I'm still not disproving his main point.

EDIT: And yes I know these last two are going to get butchered, it was to be expected.

its still easier to get 7 ball ults off compared to pre rework syndra. People are forgetting about her Q change. Getting extra balls with W was just going over the top.

Sraeg20131 votes

If we were to follow this logic, every single change to Syndra since her release was a buff.

IllegalBagel1 votes

I feel like he is wrong on the mage update I feel like that is the update the went well

VorpalKitsune1 votes

I hate what they did to my main man malzahar though. They keep the part of his kit that was considered toxic/ bad design (his ult), and gutted his damage in exchange for his voidling which are not that great. This has resulted in him feeling more like a stun bot and less like a champ. Still play him, hes just meh now.

Sraeg20137 votes

Syndra actually needs nerfs but is getting buffed because of the fetish riot has with true damage

I'm going to surprise you, but that IS a nerf.

ArnoldSchwarzens4 votes

I think new Rengar, Skarner, Darius, Talon, LeBlanc, Kat, Cass and some that I can probably not think of right now are better than the old versions tbh, especially Darius, old Darius was an unbalancable pile of crap.

Not saying that I liked everything that happened but overall I think the class updates had more of a positive than a negative impact. And I'm fine with having more in the future because they bring change which prevents the game from becoming stale.

Best princess EU4 votes

Darius rework fixed so many things, he went from no counterpick against melee to actual skill match up against skirmishers his teamfight no longer sucks

Magimodeller3 votes

{quoted}

The point of these updates were to add uniqueness to the classes/roles, but all that really happened was an enhancement of what ALREADY made them unique.

Wasn't that the point though? Renew their kits, without changing much how they play, and make the champions unique and have a reason to pick them instead of another of the same class? Not balancing the game, though they _try _ to take it into account.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't that the point though? Renew their kits, without changing much how they play, and make the champions unique and have a reason to pick them instead of another of the same class? Not balancing the game, though they _try _ to take it into account.

Think about what makes a turtle unique, its shell. Now lets add a shell on top of its shell and give it spikes. Is it more unique? Sure, is it necessary? Absolutely not and it only hurts the turtle in the end anyway because it has too much weight on its body, so that extra spiked shell will eventually have to be removed.

Did Talon really need that change to his E? Did Syndra really need to pick up mutliple balls and make it toddler easy to land 7 ball ults which took away any mastery curv of that champ?

TTK Dreadnought3 votes

Think about what makes a turtle unique, its shell. Now lets add a shell on top of its shell and give it spikes. Is it more unique? Sure, is it necessary? Absolutely not and it only hurts the turtle in the end anyway because it has too much weight on its body, so that extra spiked shell will eventually have to be removed.

the secret to why King Koopa always loses.

ShadowParker1 votes

It made talon unique. In his previous from, he was far from healthy.

Syndra's is getting reverted on the pbe.

Sraeg20131 votes

Syndra's is getting reverted on the pbe.

About 15 patches too late.

Tik1153 votes

Except they failed with that.

Cass went from being about constant DOT with poisons to machinegunning with her E they removed Sonas uniqueness and just made her a weaker Nami Skarner they added a stupid Dominion lite (Cause that was a unique thing about him to begin with yeah?) which means instead of going in he has to make sure he has control of one to maximise his odds Graves became a ranged brusier who jungles from an ADC They literally said when they reworked Morde that they want him to be a duo laner

They've shown time after time that they will gladly change how a champion plays or they'll ovetune their "Uniqueness" to the point where they become a big problem

ShadowParker2 votes

Cassiopeia wasn't about her poisons before the roster project. She lost that aspect a long time ago when Stashu reworked her.

Sona wasn't a roster project.

Skarner and morde were failures. But it also shows how naive Riot was beginning the roster projects. They've learned from their mistakes and haven't put a large amount of work into any champion that needs a vgu.

Graves wasn't mean to jungle. It just happened to work really well. He was always the tankiest of the adc's(besides urgot), so they just elaborated on that a bit more.

Sraeg20132 votes

Cassiopeia wasn't about her poisons before the roster project. She lost that aspect a long time ago when Stashu reworked her.

That doesn't change the fact they accomplished nothing since then. In my experience she's worse in a "toxic" way than she was before. And I'm not talking poisons.

Tik1152 votes

Sona WAS part of a Roster project, the Support update back in Season 3

All the support champions had their AP values gutted in exchange for stronger utility, at the same time they reworked Sona, took away what made her unique (Her Auras) and changed her from a "Poke in laning, hang back in mid/late with your auras/aura items" to a "Poke all day everyday but your still the squishiest support in the game"

So yes we can very much put it that list

Also I'll stress again, the elaborations result in big problems

Caitlynn for example, was never a problem because out of all the carries she had the worse mid game so ADCs with a good mid game and stronger late game (EG Tristana) were counters

Now they "Elaborated" to the point where her mid game isn't weak anymore, it isn't strong but now those ADCs with strong mid games can hardly take advantage

Big Lincoln3 votes

Darius was a great success from the juggernaut rework. it's a shame that he's the only juggernaut I would actually say has a well-made kit; even the new champions, Illaoi and Yorick, are pitifully... bad.

The other reworks have generally been failures. Champions that came out strong have been gutted since KogMaw Malzahar Mordekaiser

A lot of these reworks feel very rushed and poorly executed. There's a lot of things that seem forced into a kit for no real reason, like Talon's parkour, or Skarner's spires, etc.

Shadòw1 votes

they also had some good stuff (i really like Darius Cassiopeia Katarina updates for example)

some champions got better and some got cancer. but the updates weren't total failures.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Graves rework was a success, he took a bit of nerfing but he is balanced now. Quinn also became more unique and got her own niche Darius got better, both gameplay and counterplay. Garen got a unique villan mechanic. Skarner was a mess before the rework (unfortunately). Kat got all around better, more engaging and has more tools to get in and out. Talon got one of the most unique mobility spells, and can use a buff, but still is fun to play. Leblanc is strong as hell, what are you even talking about?

So yea, there are some missed champions, who didnt go so well, but saying ALL CLASSES were a failure is false.

Also lets not act like most of the reworked champs didnt have problemd to begin with.

Akenero1 votes

New skarner is actually still good, just not op, I've played him since his original kit :) Morde dragon feels absolutely amazing, the marksmen are all distinguished in what they do, look at corki for an example, and the assassins are all very high skill cap, but have many more options now, I play talon, and I LOVE his Q, it's honestly one of the best parts bout his kit in my opinion. And the point of the updates were to distinguish these types of champions.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I really would like to downvote this post. But everything said is true... so the upvote did it's job.

Well, at least kha'zix is healthier.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

You choose specific examples to make your point, avoiding the changes that disprove your point.

Swarovsko1 votes

Actually the idea of graves's autos was not even created by Riot. A guy posted a champion concept similiar to graves, so give credit to that poor anonymous guy. Syndra changes were unnecessary and only made her less satisfying (everyone can reach a 7 ball ultimate rn). The assassin update had cool ideas but missed completely the point and will probably miss it forever since adcs cry and ask Riot to nerf assassin when they oneshot the enemy adc (even tho it's not assassin's fault if adcs go splitpush without their Janna Nami and if they don't build ANY defensive item).

I'm not a native speaker so sorry if I triggered you with my broken english.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Caitlyn went from a balanced adc to an oppressive

Caitlyn was always a lane bully.

And she is currently balanced just fine, sitting at 52% win rate which is not unreasonable. https://champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn

Kharn Skyshatter3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8uGlbWz,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-12-18T20:01:46.078+0000)

Caitlyn was always a lane bully.

And she is currently balanced just fine, sitting at 52% win rate which is not unreasonable. https://champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn

Lane bully ADC's don't work. For lane bullies to work they need to eventually fall off late game. She has the scalings of an ADC so her "lows" isn't much lower than the rest of her class while still having their high.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kharn Skyshatter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8uGlbWz,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-12-18T20:12:06.378+0000)

Lane bully ADC's don't work.

Nonsense.

It works fine. 52% win rate is satisfactory and within established parameters.

Kharn Skyshatter2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8uGlbWz,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T20:41:59.831+0000)

Nonsense.

It works fine. 52% win rate is satisfactory and within established parameters.

On a knife's edge. Any small change in her favor could push her into overbearing.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kharn Skyshatter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8uGlbWz,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T20:59:41.244+0000)

On a knife's edge.

So basically you're admitting you're completely wrong and I'm completely right?

Got it, another victory for Destine ! gg'd

Kharn Skyshatter3 votes

Not fully conceded, but I respect your opinion enough to admit I might be wrong. Doesn't mean I have to like her though.

Kharn Skyshatter1 votes

Fizz update is even his mains are wanting it reverted. No one likes the new ult changes. Overall each of the class updates seemed to just add more things for ADC's and supports.

Linna Excel1 votes

Anivia: Let's make reworks great again!

This is my personal opinion, but I feel like that when a rework fails, it tends to be because riot decides to take a champion in the wrong direction. So a rioter will say "let's have so and so be such and such a champion" and then his team makes the champion do that as best as possible within whatever constraints they are dealing with, however all of their work is for naught because they took the wrong path to begin with.

Toastersaot1 votes

I'd be fine with the class updates if they hadn't left Vladimir (my secondary after Gangplank ) in the unbalancable category of champions. Now, we don't even know if he's getting buffs after the Rylai's changes. 43% Winrate feelsbadman.

Çhåryzård1 votes

I wouldn't go so far as to say they are all 100% failures

More like failures for some champions and successes for others

Jeddy0171 votes

Okay, so you pointed out the reason why you see the class updates as failure. Would you care to offer feedback on how to improve them & make them successes?

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, so you pointed out the reason why you see the class updates as failure. Would you care to offer feedback on how to improve them & make them successes?

Of course I can, however t hat would take an entirely different thread as well as a new OP about 5x longer than this one.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

Diversity and uniqueness fetish. I can swear to a god that I don't even believe in that the long awaited my precious Aatrox rework is going to be a mess. Just when Riot will stop giving Aatrox players middle finger in the face,it will be a disaster

DunkinNoobs1 votes

I'm not sure what you're talking about. They all seem to be successes in my book. Sure, they all have some flaws but the game is better off after the reworks rather than before.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

You do realize that class updates serve to distinguish champions, not actually "balance" things, right?

There's a reason why there isn't really a "support class update" because most of them are fairly unique.

Anonagon1 votes

One or two bad reworks doesn't make a class update as a whole bad. The only class update that was bad as a whole was the Juggernauts, because three of four champions had unsuccessful reworks. But Darius, the most successful of these reworks, was a MASSIVE success, and the poster child for how to do this scale of rework great.

From there we have the marksman update, of which only one rework was an objective failure (Kog). Cait was kind of a net neutral (she's not badly designed per se just overtuned as shit). The rest of these reworks were incredibly successful. Graves and Quinn now serve their fantasy super well. The Corki changes embraced the positive elements of both his AP and AD builds and found a happy medium that's successful both bot and mid. MF's rework was relatively low impact, but emphasized her AoE ability. It's important to note that these champions have unique enough reasons to pick them that they are pickable outside of the ADC role.

I don't think the mage update was as successful as the ADC update but it's important to note that it has put characters like Cass, Vlad, and Brand in more unique and sustainable positions than before.

The Assassin rework is still kind of too early to judge, but I think the idea that "it was net nerfs for everyone, therefore it's bad" is completely wrong. First off, the only assassins that were objectively nerfed were Talon and Akali. Second, most of the reason assassins feel worse now isn't their changes, it's the stupid amount of cockblock items Riot has given supports this season.

Champions being too weak or too strong does not make their rework a failure. Reworks are judged by their design, not the balance team's failure to tune that design.

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