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What the fuck is the issue with having S4's fight S4's and G1's fighting G1's?

Lux Tizer··80 votes·4,471 views

Honestly fuck this MMR slingshotted W/L ranked system, it makes no sense. If it's true that you're going to get to the rank you deserve eventually, then why bother forcing some losses on people for winning multiple games? With how many people playing this game why the FUCK should we ever see a Silver and a Plat fighting each other?

That absolute mess of Dynamic queue is gone, but we should probably focus on the other problems the ranked system has. Why don't we start with this problem and the fact that you either benefit or get hurt depending on the order that you LOSE your promos in?

If you WLL, you end up with 60 LP. If you LWL, you end up with 80. In the words of Michael from GTA 5, "What is this bullshit?"

123 Comments

Darth Sidiouss14 votes

what pisses me off more is that once you get 3 wins ina row its like you must EXPECT the loss in the next match which is sad. The system pairs with the worst possible teammates like if their not feeding they dont look at the map at all or there is someone on a tilt losing streak.

Moosh2 votes

I find it funny how all the hardstuck players make this stuff up. Last season it was dynamic queue now its this xD. No clue where you even get this from stop blaming your team and git gud.

Darth Sidiouss10 votes

dynamic queue was fkin joke though

if you were diamond 5 you were like technically gold 1 lmfao

Trenitaliyah4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yeezy Taught you,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v6kPPsWT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-20T11:28:54.900+0000)

what pisses me off more is that once you get 3 wins ina row its like you must EXPECT the loss in the next match which is sad.

Exactly!!! This is the most ridiculous part!

gottrjr10 votes

MMR is complete trash. This system is a fucking joke. Until they start using REAL FUCKING DATA like match history, win history, champ master, and kda then it will continue to be a fucking joke. A company that has data and refuses to use it because it would change how matches are setup. Hey Riot, stop being fucking being sheep and use your damn brains. Im tired of being put into a ranked match with a fucking first time teemo player or a first time shaco player or an auto filled adc and expected to fucking climb. FFS make the matches actaully matter by USING THE DATA THAT YOU HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Assholes.

Oh, and auto fill is straight fucking everyone over.

Inuyasha999999 votes

i mean autofull back in my day was pick order. EVERYBODY was forced to autofill

gottrjr9 votes

{quoted}

i mean autofull back in my day was pick order. EVERYBODY was forced to autofill

Here we go again. The whole 'that's how it used to be' justification. Doesn't mean there isn't a better way ....

People don't know how to play every position and it is costing me games.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Back in my day people took medicines containing mercury and got lobotomy. Must have been better right?

idontgiveabother4 votes

I don't feel like spending an absurd amount of time learning 5 roles to climb a few divisions.

Inuyasha999992 votes

then your rank WILL reflect that. It was MANDATORY knowledge to go into ranked knowing how to fill and if you didnt you get reported. Just because you dont want to spend the time to do what it takes to climb doesnt mean they should make it easier like they did giving you choice preference. Rank does not reflect your skill level if you only know 1 or two roles.

idontgiveabother1 votes

I don't care if someone doesn't know anything about mid lane in a game because I do. I will know what to do from that position and know how to win a game. Same with another role, if they know how to play it to the best of their abilities then by all means you do you. I am willing to cooperate/listen with others and use our collective minds to forge a strategy and win. If I had a team full of people who played nothing but that role and were willing to work together, that would be amazing.

Inuyasha999991 votes

Ever have a team that doesnt follow up? If you say no then you are a liar. That is due to lack of knowledge of your champ and role. if they knew how to fill they would understand your playstyle. Teamwork doesnt just mean 5 people knowing your own role and doing it well.

idontgiveabother1 votes

I always get teams that don't know how to follow up. That might not be exclusive to knowing roles either. It could just be they are clueless on how to play the fundamentals of the game. In team fighting you have your engage, you have to have good positioning, know which targets to go for (this is the one I see people most often under preform with). You do have a point that you have to know how a certain champion acts and what they do, but it isn't always just that.

Inuyasha999991 votes

no but if you get into the mindset of only ever needing to know one or two positions youre limiting your knowledge of game mechanics and the limits of other champs. Knowing all 5 roles is crucial and can help you win other lanes if you watch the map enough and help other laners by knowing their cds and tactics and explaining it to your laners. This is why i jungle

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

They probably use more of this data than you think to calculate your MMR. Why do you care so much about competitive integrity in a pay to win game?

gottrjr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CSing Support,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v6kPPsWT,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2017-03-20T20:15:08.648+0000)

They probably use more of this data than you think to calculate your MMR. Why do you care so much about competitive integrity in a pay to win game?

They dont use any of that shit. How could they? The champ is chosen after the match is made.

I just want balanced matches. Instead of this MMR garbage.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

They almost certainly use KDA and stats like gold income to calculate MMR.

Hellen Keller2 votes

They don't. As far as I know, it's entirely based on win/loss and the MMR of the opponents you won/lost to. If they used stats like gold/kda, supports would be fucked even harder by the system. Also Singed mains would literally never climb.

TŒŒMØ1 votes

Not entirely true. The letter grade system is based on performance in each respective role and champion, so a Zed would require a better KDA to get an S than a Singed would require for the same letter grade.

The same formula could be applied to the ranking system. Even so, Riot feels that it would change the way people play, and they'd focus more on KDA and other ranking factors instead of focusing on winning. (I don't represent the opinion of Riot. This is just what I have gathered from their replies to similar posts)

Hellen Keller1 votes

The grading system is /almost/ entirely based on CS. I've gone 4/9/15 on Lee but farmed hard and got an S-

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

No one knows for sure except for Riot, and it's really hard to speculate because those stats often result in more wins. My thought is they bother to process them for S ratings, so they might be taking the extra step and factoring it into MMR, depending on if they think the difference it produces is good.

The argument they wouldn't do it because supports get less gold/kills doesn't make sense because with the current system they know what role is being played and can adjust accordingly (as they already do to calculate S ratings).

Unironic SJW1 votes

There is not a competitive game or sport on the fucking planet that prioritizes stats over wins.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

Where did I say prioritizes?

Trenitaliyah8 votes

MMR is a creepy invention, and bullshit. I'm Silver and have a winning streak, one is Platinum and has a bad day, well, ha! Let's put them together! Surely on the same level!

Why bother making all the leagues and divisions I wonder? Just put us all in one big chart from the highest to the lowest and randomly arrange the matches smh. This system makes NO SENSE I swear.

Lux Tizer1 votes

It just doesn't feel right to have a system that purposefully keeps most players around 50% winrate so that "No one gets demoralized."

It demoralized me more than anything else questioning if I actually earn any of my wins based on a potential previous loss streak.

GhostInTheShell2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lux Tizer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v6kPPsWT,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-03-20T14:37:50.161+0000)

It just doesn't feel right to have a system that purposefully keeps most players around 50% winrate so that "No one gets demoralized."

It demoralized me more than anything else questioning if I actually earn any of my wins based on a potential previous loss streak.

When you say "purposefully keeps most players around 50%", you mean a system that matches you with easier opponents if you lose, and harder opponents as you win? How else would you know where you belong, if the system did not do that and just matched you randomly? If you're a 100+ games in and are stuck at a certain rank with a ~50% win rate, you know you're getting close to your true elo as long as you don't regress or improve as a player.

If you're a smurf with an 80% win rate, they'll try to find a fair match by putting players who are worse on your team or putting players who are better on the enemy team, or some combination of the two.

Btw, our rankings are just covers for our MMR. You can be Plat 5 with Silver MMR if you lose enough games. The system is fine, if you think you're stuck at a certain elo range and already have a good number of games then it's almost certainly where you belong.

Maddened King 3 votes

Because we still use the ELO system. Ranks are just aesthetics. You are fighting people equal to your skill every game.

Not xPeke13 votes

Except it's incredibly stupid to fight people equal to your skill level when you're currently ranked in a spot beneath said level.

Random example: I could have a high gold MMR and face Gold/low Plat players while climbing through SILVER..

So I'm required to win promotional series in Silver, yet I'm competing with players way higher than that? Winning those promos doesn't prove that I deserve to be Silver 1, 2 or Gold 5, or whatever. I was playing vs Gold 2s and even Plat 5 players because of my MMR. It only proves if I can compete against players equal to my own skill level.

How is that logical? (pshh it's not) So why have promotional series at all??

MMR should stay the same, but if they insist on having a system based on ranks and divisions, and insist on having promotional series between every single division, then it's only fair that MMR only affects the LP gain/loss and not matchmaking. You shouldn't be fighting with players around your skill level (ideally higher than you are at the moment) while trying to climb in a division/tier well below your skill level. It proves nothing as to if you deserve to climb out of that lower level or not because you're not facing players from that Division/Tier.

Do you get what I mean?

Fegone2 votes

Yea it makes sense what you say, and I agree with you. For the players, this system is stupid.

But here's the reasoning they probably bring to the table: Say you've got Plat MMR, and you're currently playing through Silver. By being matched against other Plats, you win some, and you lose some. And because you're losing some games in Silver, your MMR goes slightly down. At some point you'll be matched against Gold players instead, and your will win more than you lose, hence you keep climbing in Silver. Your MMR goes up, you reach Gold, and you're matched against plats again. You win a few, lose a few, your MMR goes slightly down, you're matched against Golds instead. You win more than you lose, you keep climbing until you reach Plat. Your MMR is back to Plat and you're now in Plat yourself.

It kinda makes sense if you look at it this way, but naturally it's frustrating to "prove yourself" in Silver, while matched against Plats. But that's the only way to prevent games where you're in Silver with Plat MMR, and completely stomp every game until you're in Plat yourself. Because that would mean you're ruining the game for at least 5 players every game by totally annihilating them, do this for say 6-7 games per division, ~70 games from Silver to Plat, that's 350 players who get stomped by a Plat climbing through Silver. Not too fair either, is it?

Not xPeke1 votes

I get that reasoning, and it is logical on one side.

On the other side though, I don't believe that this reasoning should over rule the simple example I gave though.

Sure, the poor silvers will stomped by a Plat player climbing through Silver, but ultimately that Plat player didn't place himself there. Riot did. It still defies logic to be forced to win promotional series in a division/tier you don't deserve to be in while facing players of a higher skill level than the level you are trying to climb out of. For this reason I can't accept their reasoning, as logical and "fair" as it may seem - which I agree with, to have priority over my own logic.

At the end of the day, why should a Plat player "struggle" through Silver by facing opponents higher than that Tier while true Silver players are facing inferior players to climb out of the same place? It's unfair for players with a higher MMR. They SHOULD be stomping those games because they don't deserve to be Silver. It's as simple as that in my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

And while those Silver players may find that to be "unfair" because they get stomped by someone that doesn't deserve to be in Silver, so will I get stomped by someone that doesn't deserve to be in the division/tier I am placed in. So it's not like I'm being selfish or anything. I'd be in their same situation and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just life and logic.

RavenMagus2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v6kPPsWT,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-03-20T13:18:12.576+0000)

Except it's incredibly stupid to fight people equal to your skill level when you're currently ranked in a spot beneath said level.

No, it's not. That's how the current system is supposed to work.

If you are climbing through Silver, you can have a high Gold MMR and be facing those people like you say.

But if you are, even if you have a 50% win ratio (which the game is trying to get you to have), then you will gain much more LP than you lose. Even if you lose just as much as you win, you'll still be climbing in ranking.

The alternative would be to have you matched against Silver players, in which case you'll probably climb just as fast, but you'll be creating poorly balanced games along the way.

Let me put it this way: Do you want your games randomly decided by Challenger level smurfs who happen to be climbing through Silver? Or would you rather those smurfs be already facing Diamond/Challenger level opponents while they climb?

Not xPeke4 votes

Yeah I know that you'll still be climbing especially with the sweet LP gain/loss ratio if you have a high MMR, but still.

It's not my fault that I'll be creating poorly balanced games along the way. Riot placed me lower, and while they do smooth my climb by giving me more points in the case of a win than if I were to lose, it doesn't change the fact that the actual game is alot harder for me than it should be.

I could be in a promotional game to Silver 1 and face high Gold players. If I lose, does it mean I don't deserve Silver 1? No. Absolutely not. It only means I happened to lose a promo series against high Gold players.

And also at risk of sounding like a dick.. boo hoo. If I'm in Silver I should be matched vs Silvers. If they can't handle it then they can just get better. As harsh as it sounds it's just the reality of things. And before someone calls me selfish, you do realise that if I'm thinking this about Silvers, I am aware I will have this same thing done to me by players higher than me if they pass through my division.

This links me to your question. I'd rather have my games randomly decided by "challenger" (gross exaggeration there to try and stress your point if I'm honest, but whatever) level players who happen to climb in my division. I accept it. They're in my division and won't be here for long. It happens.

Let me put it this way: Just assume that somehow the Patriots were a College team, and if they were to win their league they would be promoted to the NFL. And assume they are the same skill level they are at the moment. Just because they're good and already have a "high mmr", it doesn't mean they'd be competing against NFL teams to make it into the NFL. It makes no sense. If you're fighting for a promotion you fight against players in your same position. Simple as that.

I know it's a bit of a weird example, I'm a EU pleb, not sure if you follow soccer or if it works the same way in America but in Sports when there are different divisions you play people in your own division to get promoted to the next one. Because that's the logical thing to do. You don't play people based on your skill level unless you are in their same rank. Logic.

RavenMagus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v6kPPsWT,comment-id=0006000100010000,timestamp=2017-03-20T15:46:07.872+0000)

Yeah I know that you'll still be climbing especially with the sweet LP gain/loss ratio if you have a high MMR, but still.

It's not my fault that I'll be creating poorly balanced games along the way. Riot placed me lower, and while they do smooth my climb by giving me more points in the case of a win than if I were to lose, it doesn't change the fact that the actual game is alot harder for me than it should be.

You're facing people your skill level. Getting balanced games is the most important factor. Otherwise the entirety of ranked would just be a crapshoot with far more imbalanced skill levels on both sides of every game.

I could be in a promotional game to Silver 1 and face high Gold players. If I lose, does it mean I don't deserve Silver 1? No. Absolutely not. It only means I happened to lose a promo series against high Gold players.

Promos are where things break down a little, I admit, since getting more LP per win doesn't affect your promo series at all.

However, the "gain a free win next time if you lost your promos" thing helps that quite a bit, and promos shouldn't be such a barrier anymore.

In addition if you really are regularly facing people in a much higher league, then you will likely skip a full division or even two when you succeed at your promos.

And also at risk of sounding like a dick.. boo hoo. If I'm in Silver I should be matched vs Silvers. If they can't handle it then they can just get better. As harsh as it sounds it's just the reality of things. And before someone calls me selfish, you do realise that if I'm thinking this about Silvers, I am aware I will have this same thing done to me by players higher than me if they pass through my division.

No. Silvers don't deserve an unbalanced game just because they're in silver and you're not.

Just... no.

This links me to your question. I'd rather have my games randomly decided by "challenger" (gross exaggeration there to try and stress your point if I'm honest, but whatever) level players who happen to climb in my division. I accept it. They're in my division and won't be here for long. It happens.

But the current system puts such a situation at a minimum.

If we changed the whole system to the way you'd like it, it would actually happen a lot more often. Not just with Challenger smurfs, but people in Diamond and Platinum and high Gold that get placed into a lower tier due to beginning of season MMR contraction. These players will be taking longer to get out of Silver, creating plenty of unbalanced games where they face off against people who are actually Silver.

Trust me, it's much better to have you facing Golds while your personal ranking shows Silver, than having you fight Silvers and directly boosting every Silver player you happen to be playing with. I'm not actually sure why you think that your out-of-game ranking matters more than your in-game play, especially when the system is already geared towards getting you into your proper place quicker.

Let me put it this way: Just assume that somehow the Patriots were a College team, and if they were to win their league they would be promoted to the NFL. And assume they are the same skill level they are at the moment. Just because they're good and already have a "high mmr", it doesn't mean they'd be competing against NFL teams to make it into the NFL. It makes no sense. If you're fighting for a promotion you fight against players in your same position. Simple as that.

I know it's a bit of a weird example, I'm a EU pleb, not sure if you follow soccer or if it works the same way in America but in Sports when there are different divisions you play people in your own division to get promoted to the next one. Because that's the logical thing to do. You don't play people based on your skill level unless you are in their same rank. Logic.

Actual sports is a much different beast than League of Legends ranked ladder. Much, much different.

The biggest difference is that sports teams are a single unit, where as League of Legends ranked teams are made up with 5 individuals pulled from the matchmaking queue. A professional soccer team does not disband and reform with new members between every single game they play in. If League of Legends were to follow in the same suit, then every single game would need to be 1v1 only.

Not xPeke1 votes

The way I see it actual sports are not that much different at all in this regard. Logic is logic.

My climb through Silver should not be hindered due to my MMR and matchmaknig while actual Silvers have it "easy" by playing true Silver players. And like you said yourself, when it comes to promotional games things do indeed break down a little.

And skipping divisions is usually achievable due to big win streaks. I climbed through Silver with a 74% winrate on this account which has gone down a bit now, and I didn't skip a single division. Not a single one with 70%+ winrate. I was facing high Gold, low Plat players, and even Diamonds (from last season - not current ones - but still), and didn't skip anything! Do you realise how shitty it feels to lose games at that level of play while trying to climb out of Silver? How is that fair to me? I lose a game in Silver to freaking high Gold and Plat players and for all you know could lose 1 or 2 promos if unlucky. That's just dumb.

And I'm not saying Silvers deserved unbalanced games because "screw them they're Silver". I'm saying it because it's only logical. I even said it's OBVIOUS I will have the same thing done to me, and I would accept it. Because that's the way it should be. Like I said.. get rid of divisions then, or at least get rid of promotional series within a Tier. There is absolutely no reason for them if you are playing matched on MMR instead of Rank.

EDIT: and look bottom line: it's stupid to have to win promotional games based on MMR and possibly lose them when you're trying to get promoted to a division/tier that you are already above skill wise. Undeniable. That's why those games at least shouldn't be linked to MMR but strictly to the division you are trying to get promoted to.

RavenMagus1 votes

Logic changes depending on the situation. You cannot take a situation where context is important, remove the context, and continue to say "it's simply logic". That is actually illogical.

Your climb through Silver is not hindered by your MMR. You gain a lot more LP than you lose. With the exception of promos - which are a minority of your games - you are advancing just as fast as you might be if you were facing Silvers and winning every single game. Except you aren't ruining silver level games in the process.

Actual Silvers don't have it "easy". They have it exactly the same as you do: they are facing people their skill level. Facing you instead, because you happen to be in Silver at the time, is not fair to them.

Skipping divisions is doable if your MMR is high enough, which is often a product of long win streaks because that is how you increase your MMR. If you're not skipping full divisions, then your MMR is not actually incredibly super high.

Do you realise how shitty it feels to lose games at that level of play while trying to climb out of Silver? How is that fair to me? I lose a game in Silver to freaking high Gold and Plat players and for all you know could lose 1 or 2 promos if unlucky. That's just dumb.

Not as shitty as it feels for a Silver player to lose their promos game because the other team happened to have a Plat or Diamond player on it. How is that fair to them? Probably a lot less fair to them than the current system is fair to you, to be honest.

And I'm not saying Silvers deserved unbalanced games because "screw them they're Silver". I'm saying it because it's only logical. I even said it's OBVIOUS I will have the same thing done to me, and I would accept it. Because that's the way it should be.

I disagree. I see no logic in your arguments.

Just because you are okay with sometimes getting screwed, does not mean that everyone is.

EDIT: and look bottom line: it's stupid to have to win promotional games based on MMR and possibly lose them when you're trying to get promoted to a division/tier that you are already above skill wise. Undeniable. That's why those games at least shouldn't be linked to MMR but strictly to the division you are trying to get promoted to.

Are you saying that your system of "I should be facing silvers" should only apply to promo games, then? Personally I think that's a bit complicated, and promos are not even that big a deal anymore - they're honestly pretty easy to get past with the free win mechanic in place now. In fact, if you have a 50% winrate, you're practically guaranteed to get past a division promos by the second try.

Solidarius1 votes

just a question... as a silver rank player... if I smash a Gold/Plat/Diamond level player top lane, does that make me gold/plat/diamond level top laner?

RavenMagus2 votes

With just one game? No. But if you can do so consistently enough, or even just pull even with them, then hell yeah, you're good enough to work your way up there.

Solidarius1 votes

playing the devils advocate here...

but if I a silver player can beat a gold/plat/diamond player in lane consistently enough whats the point of having a rank then?

p.s. not saying I can <3

edit: to me personally I care about how I do each and every game rather than "my rank".

I dont dislike the new system because I believe that my MMR reflects my skill level, but it would tilt me if I had to play a "diamond" top lane to win a promo series into lets say gold or plat lol

RavenMagus1 votes

If you're already fighting diamonds while you're trying to get into gold and plat, then your MMR is well above where you're at. But if that's the case, then with increased LP gains and guaranteed wins in promo re-tries, you'll be flying through the divisions until you meet up with your MMR.

The ranks themselves are to provide a sense of accomplishment and an understanding of where you are. It's easier to understand "oh yeah I'm in gold 3!" than it is "oh yeah I'm at 1643!" And winning that last promo game and seeing the congratulations on hitting Platinum is more feels-good than just seeing a number rise from 1794 to 1813 (or wherever Plat is, these numbers are just a guess).

And that's pretty much the whole point. They're there to give you that feels-good sense of accomplishment.

Solidarius1 votes

I understand and agree id rather have a "gold 3" than just a #, and rank does give a sense of accomplishment.

I still question the system sometimes because

for example if one of my teammates has a gold mmr facing a silver mmr in mid lane, and I am top lane silver mmr vs an enemy gold mmr...

is this a fair and equal system?

Also In a lot of my games I question the skill level of the enemy laner...

its really random.... sometimes I get to face someone who is very very bad...

and sometimes someone is very very good,

very rarely do I have an "even" matchup( in my opinion)

I do check after the game the profiles of enemy laners and I see that they are pretty equal to me in rank, but I wonder about their mmr.

obviously its not a perfect system and there are other factors than just rank and mmr in lane but can they make it better?

p.s.I still stand behind my statement that id be really tilted if I faced someone 2 whole ranks above me in a lane in placements but I have not experienced this in ranked yet.

RavenMagus1 votes

{quoted}

obviously its not a perfect system and there are other factors than just rank and mmr in lane but can they make it better?

I think it's almost impossible to make this kind of system truly perfect for everyone involved, especially since everyone has different opinions on how the system should work for them. They just have to settle with pleasing the most people, and I think they've done that at least.

p.s.I still stand behind my statement that id be really tilted if I faced someone 2 whole ranks above me in a lane in placements but I have not experienced this in ranked yet.

To be fair, it would happen more often if you faced people based on your rank and not your MMR, you just wouldn't be able to see it by looking your match up on op.gg.

edit:

Also In a lot of my games I question the skill level of the enemy laner...

its really random.... sometimes I get to face someone who is very very bad...

personally that's why I think Ranked is always a long grind either way, even if you are already way ahead in MMR, you still just need to play more games to get your ranking up there.

Because everyone's skill level varies from game to game. Sometimes people just have a bad game, or they're on tilt and having a bad day, or they got autofilled/had their one trick champ banned, etc. Playing more games gives a larger sample size to get a better indication of that player's skill (and it's why placements usually favor a lower league place, even if you win all of them).

Not xPeke1 votes

You don't understand what I mean.

Think of it this way: I could easily climb in "true" Silver with 75-80%+ winrate if matched with that level of players (random number, whatever, hope you get what I mean though). Right? Now, when I am matched with players of my own true skill level, the average winrate tends to be around 50%, am I correct? (yes, yes, difference in LP gain will still make you climb well even with 50% winrate. But your MMR isn't going to stay high enough to have a large offset of points won compared to the ones lost if you stay on a 50% winrate.. But just assuming that the LP gain stays the same, you are still losing more games than you would be in the other case. Which means you are wasting more time than you should be to climb out of a division you don't deserve to be in) So do you see what I mean with my climb being "hindered"?

^ And this is even more true the moment we reach promos.

For example, if you assume that I have an 80% winrate vs a particular division, winning a promotional series sounds rather easy. The issue arises when instead you are matched based on your MMR, where your winrate is trying to drag you down to 50% and games are harder. Which means that the chances of winning those promos have drastically been reduced. Getting a free win incase of failing promos doesn't make up for the fact that you are being forced to grind and grind to get out of a place you don't deserve being (ideally speaking).

I'm not complaining for people that can't climb, but I don't think players should be forced to grind in this unfair situation. If you're good, you're good. You shouldn't be obligated to grind for it just because "oh it's unfair for Silvers".

Nobody places themselves in Silver, Riot did. And if I'm forced to win a promotional series EVERY single time between divisions, then I should be matched with said division players as promotional series are there (indicated by Riot themselves) to prove someone deserves to climb, and to help filter out those that are quite not there yet.

So yes, it should not be based on personal MMR on these basis.

You're better than Silver and want to climb to Gold? Beat Silvers to prove it.. Better than Golds? Beat Golds. Etc, etc, etc. Simple.

RavenMagus1 votes

You're better than Silver and want to climb to Gold? Beat Silvers to prove it.. Better than Golds? Beat Golds. Etc, etc, etc. Simple.

That's how it works, though. It just doesn't ruin games while you do it. If you're beating Golds, you will rise to Gold and beyond, even if you are at 50% win rate the whole time.

The whole point of the game is to have better balanced games. The ranking you see outside the game is just an aesthetic, really, and it will always catch up to wherever you happen to actually be. Like I said, even promos are pretty much a guaranteed success by your second try if you're still playing at 50% win rate (assuming an even 50% win rate, then you have a 75% chance to succeed at your promos with each try, and that's an awfully high rate of success).

This is not an unfair situation. Nothing about this is unfair. You're facing people your skill level, and you are still climbing while doing it.

Honestly? If you really want to bash Bronze players so bad, just buy a smurf or something. But this "unfair" system is actually very fair.

And that's the bottom line. I'm sorry that you think that facing people your own skill level is somehow "unfair". (And remember, you ARE climbing while doing it, so stop trying that excuse.)

Not xPeke1 votes

you know what I'll just TLDR: Matchmaking based on MMR means that 2 players can be climbing through the same exact Division/Tier playing on 2 whole different levels of play. If you don't think that's unfair I can't really say much else. The moment they are both promoted to Gold at the same time, they both have the same exact reward, except someone played at a much higher level of play. Aesthetics or not, Rank DOES matter.

The rest is down here if you fancy reading it.

That's not how it works at all! It doesn't matter if I will eventually reach Gold, the manner of how I reach it is cheap and unfair in my regards only because the "lesser" skilled players have to be catered for. I don't mean it in a harsh way.. just can't really explain it any other way.

I was facing full Gold teams (and no, not low MMR gold players - my MMR was just high) when I was Silver 3 for example. Yes I get it, I'm playing on my same level technically, yet I need to waste time winning promotional series and grind a pointless amount of games in SILVER... While facing Golds and Plats.

It's not an excuse and I'm not looking to just bash Bronze players at all.

Like I pointed out, having my winrate slowly go down because matchmaking is based on MMR while I'm still in a Tier/Division way beneath my skill level IS unfair.

It doesn't matter if you say rank is an aesthetic because at the end of the day what matters for rewards.. is your rank. Not your MMR. And this is Riot's issue by making true MMR hidden and a secret. More transparency would probably help.

And forcing players to grind and grind and grind is cheap.

It doesn't matter if promos are pretty much guaranteed due to the free win after you fail them the first time.. that would happen anyway even if matches weren't made with MMR. That has no relevance here. And (ideally) you wouldn't even fail those promos for Silver 2, for example, if you were playing with Silver 2s instead of Gold 1 MMR lol. That's what you don't understand. I'm not crying and complaining that I can't climb, I'm saying my climb shouldn't be like this. That's what's unfair.

This system is catering for the lower "skill" players because "poor babies it's unfair". There's always going to be someone better than you, just like there's always going to be someone better than me. It's life. You can get stomped by anyone. I can find a true Silver that just completely stomps my team. Just like I can find a Gold player in a Silver game that can completely stomp my team. What's the difference? That's why I don't think we need to go out of our way to cater "balanced teams" when they aren't actually balanced at all in the first place.

Also, please don't twist my words and meaning. I don't think facing people my own skill level is unfair as a whole. I think sharing a Rank and Division with players playing on a whole completely different level is what is unfair. We do the same exact thing, play the same exact promos but at 2 different levels. If you can't see this unfair then I don't know what else to say.

Aesthetics or not, Ranks are there. Either remove them or make them matter then. Can't have it both ways I'm sorry.

You don't understand.. I shouldn't be "struggling" or going even while climbing up into Gold because I'm matched with players of my own MMR, so ideally having a 50% winrate. I should be flyyyyyyyyyyying past Silver because I'd smash Silver players. That is literally basic logic right there. I know you can't see it, but I stand by it.

Your own argument is just that my concept is "unfair cus unbalanced games". Still can't see how you can deny that what I'm explaining is common sense though. That's how anyone would expect things to be anytime there are Ranks/Divisions involved.

RavenMagus1 votes

That is literally basic logic right there. I know you can't see it, but I stand by it.

And to me, "I shouldn't be ruining every other player's ranked experience because I need to get past silver" is also basic logic. I know you can't see it, but I stand by it.

The entire point is to have a better play experience for everyone involved. Smashing silvers might feel better for you but it creates a worse experience for 9 other players.

That is literally basic logic right there. I know you can't see it, but I stand by it.

Not xPeke1 votes

I'm not entirely sure why you turned petty all of a sudden. Oh well.

And again.. you're twisting my words. I made it past Silver, and VERY easily at that.. that's exactly why I have no secret agenda or anything. I'm not complaining about being unable to. I'm not salty or looking for excuses. I'm literally calling it the way I see it.

Go around it all you want, say Rank is just an aesthetics or whatever, but at the end of the day, it's there. And since it is there, it means something at the very least.

For this reason, a rank/division being shared by players of 2 different skill level, playing for the same exact thing IS unfair - based on the fact that they are playing on 2 distinct level of play to obtain the same exact thing. This IS important to recognise. You can't say Rank is just an aesthetic when every different Tier offers different Rewards. MMR might be important to climb, more so than your current Rank, but ultimately you are climbing for a specific reward. Obtainable through.. you guess it, your rank.

So if I'm going to get promoted to Gold by playing vs High Gold and Plat players I find that unfair considering I am getting the same exact reward as someone who was playing against Silver players. We get the same reward except I'm playing against much higher opponents. It doesn't matter if that's my skill level or not. We're fighting for the same reward. Please, understand this.

I wrote alot, and repeated myself a bit yet again, I realise this. But I also did add better explanations and examples to my point.

So I have no idea why you literally only focused on that one sentence and chose to turn it against me in such a manner. Quite immature. I wasn't flexing my e-peen when I worded it that way. I just firmly believe what I proposed is quite logical.

RavenMagus1 votes

I think we are simply of different opinions.

You think it is better for a person to have an easier time for themselves plowing their way through silver.

I think it is better for other people to have better balanced games.

I don't see how what you have said is in any way logical at all - personally, I think it is quite detrimental to the game as a whole, and having a better ranked experience for everyone involved is more important than giving one person easier games.

But I'm willing to say that this is simply difference of opinion.

Also, in case you were wondering, I turned that sentence against you as it seemed quite immature coming from you, insisting that everything you said was clear and pure logic. Essentially, you called me stupid, and I replied in kind.

Not xPeke1 votes

Ok, as a whole, in general, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Different opinions, fair enough.

But believe me I wasnt trying to call you stupid at all. Its just that if a system has divisions, Tiers, etc, it is fair enough to expect to be matched with players from those divisions when competing to get out of said place, no?

It doesnt mean that I dont recognise that it might be detrimental to the game or not. I cant honestly flat out deny that. I guess both arguments are unfair to someone. You prioritized one side, I prioritized the other.

But see, the system in place at the moment is an adaptation because of problems arising after applying said normal logic/expectation. Like you said, it could cause harm to the game, so this "logic" is then changed. What I said isnt wrong in itself though the way I see it, due to this reason.

Anyway, thats why I called it simple logic, I wasnt trying to assume you were stupid or anything like that. Its just that its the first conclusion that comes to mind. Whether its viable or not because of seperate reasons is debatable but the point is not wrong in itself.

Something can be logical but it doesnt always mean its the correct way to go at things. But at the same time it doesnt mean that its not logical. Get what I mean?

Anyway yeah, agree to disagree I guess.

Fisher No Chains3 votes

I'm so tilted right now. Just lost my promo to G3 because in both the games I played I had at least 2/3 Plat 5 (probably elo boosted) ppl on a loss streak. Well, they proceeded to feed and lose the game in... 5 minutes?

Also I just realized on LoLnexus that in promo your team's MMR is ALWAYS lower than enemy team's MMR. I know LoLnexus is not an official site and doesn't show the actual MMR, but I still find it sad.

Skias3 votes

Best streak I went on was an 11 consecutive wins with Taric Top. After 4 wins, I was getting some dumpster teams and matched up against plats and at one point a Diamond top. had two afks (not in same game) and won in spite of it. It's pretty ridiculous to be Gold V and matched up against a Diamond top. I barely scraped through and won that lane, the dude was just infinitely better than me at CSing and mechanics. He only lost to me because he kept trying to dive me and force him lead.

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