If he's even the SLIGHTEST bit undertuned, then he might as well not exist. Change 1 item to suit him better, and he's back to a 50% pick rate.
He's either not in the game at all, or so unbelievably ubiquitous and reliable that he's in a majority of matches all the way up the ranked ladder. As far as I've seen balancing difficulty has been a huge metric for a rework, and this is an extreme case for that category.
ACTI0NBASTARD28 votesThe problem is, he's a generalist adc. When he's strong, he shits on most other picks due to the nature of his kit.
Aimléss5 votesPretty sure I read this somewhere before. Copy & Paste much?
ForgottenLuck24 votesyou read it before cause its true
IcyPepper11 votesCopy & Paste
Wait, that's a function you can use to reuse characters, typically text communications but applicable in some coding, instead of typing them!
You stole that from computers! Plagiarize much?
If you don't get the joke, I'm pointing out the absurdity of mocking someone for making a simple point that's restated because it's viewed as a valid statement... It'd be like saying Lee Sin is a generalist jungler, or that ADC's (typically) scale into the late-game with sustained damage.
IllegalBagel3 votesthis guy knows his shit
SzGamer2278 votesI don't see how he's generalist though. He doesn't have any cc for starters, which is something that a lot of adcs have to at least small extent. See:
If Lucian has a balance problem I'm going to go ahead and assume that it's not because he's generalist, but rather because his entire power budget is spent on damage and mobility, which has a history of causing balance issues cough Yasuo cough
EROTIC RAID BOSS4 votesyasuo doesn't cause balance issues he just frustrates people
SzGamer2271 votesAnother citation would be Kalista. She was nerfed soon after release because of how strong her mobility and damage were, and those nerfs ended up being a gutting. It took the slightest hair of a nerf buff in 7.1 to bring her back up to a 49% win rate from 42%.
Masala Chai1 votesYou vastly under estimate he power of New Rend, it was a complete reversal of 6.1, with a little buff on top. Kalista can shove and trade super easily without losing mana
SzGamer2271 votesIt didn't make Rend stronger or make her pushing power better though. It just makes it so Kalista doesn't have to focus on executing two minions at a time when farming to get the full refund, which makes it a lot easier, but she doesn't push any faster in the hands of a player who was well practiced at farming as Kalista before. It just makes it so farming is more intuitive, which is only a buff to players who were struggling to using Rend to farm and push effectively.
The "passive is no longer disabled when Rend is on cooldown" likewise doesn't make her lane pushing power stronger. However, this does come with a marginal buff for if Kalista ever uses Rend to cc a target rather than kill it, as the passive continues and she gets more damage from a second Rend once it goes off cooldown.
Like the patchnotes said, it's a slight buff, but it's mostly an ease-of-use/quality-of-life buff that specifically targets difficulty reaching Kalista's farming/pushing potential, but ultimately results in only a slight buff for Kalista players who were already operating at 100% capacity.
Masala Chai1 votesIt made her able to shove for literally zero cost, allowing Rend to stack while off cooldown also indirectly gave it a shorter cooldown because you need Rend stacks to pop to get that sweet juicy 700+ damage burst. Mana efficiency in lane was really hard because you needed to kill 2 minions plus get stacks in a champ to get the mana back for free. That was so difficult, and juggling that with Pierce (Q) made it insanely difficult. Now I can literally just focus on one creep and one champ.
Let me just say as a Kalista main; even during Season 6 when she was beyond garbage, her newfound power was more of a culmination of indirect buffs.
Fervor buffs (her best keystone) Jhin nerfs (her best counter) Vayne nerfs (also a decent counter) Lucian buffs (what she counters) BoTRK changes (highly benefit her)
her winrate in 6.24 compared to 7.1 wasn't drastically different.
SzGamer2271 votes[{quoted}](name=Full Moon Ace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G2YrKeRN,comment-id=0000000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-31T07:15:27.100+0000)
Mana efficiency in lane was really hard because you needed to kill 2 minions plus get stacks in a champ to get the mana back for free. That was so difficult, and juggling that with Pierce (Q) made it insanely difficult. Now I can literally just focus on one creep and one champ.
That's what I was saying. It was difficult to maximize Kalista's zero-cost pushing power. However she always had it, it's just that it was very difficult to utilize perfectly. With the Rend mana reset change, utilizing Kalista's zero-cost pushing potential got easier, increasing her performance but not actually making her stronger.
The Rend off-cooldown change was the thing that made her stronger for the reasons you said. I just pointed out that the effectively reduced cooldown only takes effect if you didn't kill something with the Rend, making it a situational buff for if you use Rend to slow a target, etc.
Cosmic Warper2 votes[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G2YrKeRN,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-29T22:46:16.617+0000)
yasuo doesn't cause balance issues he just frustrates people
well not anymore. Remember tank yasuo? yasuo when wardlord's was first released? yasuo ater the adc rework ( where he could get 100% crit with two items)
EDIT: not the crit part, but the phantom dancer rework pushed him over the top
EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votesI mean OK that's mostly problems with the itemsand masteries with the exception of when he built tanky. And that was fixed a lot faster and more easily than tank ekko or fizz
His kit isn't problematic in the way say azir was
JaxMoonStealer2 votesYou were right until you mentioned Yasuo. Despite Yasuo causing balance issues in the past, he also has utility, unlike Lucian.
But yes, Lucian is the only ADC I can think of with no utility at all. He either does damage or does nothing at all.
10Tickler1 votes
Mettanoia2 votesWhile I'll admit I got nothing for ezreal Sivir ultimate is a utility spell friend
10Tickler1 votesThe original point of the discussion in this subthread wasn't 'Utility' but 'Crowd Control', see:
SzGamer227 (NA) - a day ago I don't see how he's generalist though. He doesn't have any cc for starters, which is something that a lot of adcs have to at least small extent.
Neither of these champions possess any form of INNATE CC
MasterSalami6 votesWhile very limited in scope, technically Ez can boost teammates AS with his W. And many of them build IBG, so that's his utility.
10Tickler1 votesThe original point of the discussion in this subthread wasn't 'Utility' but 'Crowd Control', see:
SzGamer227 (NA) - a day ago I don't see how he's generalist though. He doesn't have any cc for starters, which is something that a lot of adcs have to at least small extent.
Neither of these champions possess any form of INNATE CC
SzGamer2271 votesTrue. Yasuo gets special compensations for being melee, which muddles the comparison. Kalista would've been a better example. She got gutted by nerfs for being too mobile and dealing too much damage, leaving her win rate in the low 40%s. It only took the tiniest buffs in 7.1 to bring her back up to 49%.
Sp33d Zer01 votesBut Yasuo also has two forms of crowd control and his windwall
SzGamer2272 votesTrue. Yasuo gets special compensations for being melee, which muddles the comparison. Kalista would've been a better example. After being gutted by nerfs for being too strong it only took the tiniest buffs in 7.1 to bring her back up to a 49% win rate.
Chromatic Eagle13 votesWhy is that an unpopular opinion? Why do people keep assuming their opinions are unpopular?
Aeszarck2 votes[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G2YrKeRN,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-03-29T21:19:53.772+0000)
Why is that an unpopular opinion? Why do people keep assuming their opinions are unpopular?
Just be confident and post your opinions, damn it!
Squidward Dab9 votesCuz Lucian ATM isn't causing as much of a ruckus as before so he's considered fine and if anyone dare state that he's a bit annoying rn, that person WILL get mauled
Chromatic Eagle3 votesNot really? In general, this board (when it's in season) hates marksman. The only ones I see get defended are Jhin and maybe Jinx.
Adriqnohee5 votesAccording to the boards every ADCs needs to be nerfed into the ground or reworked, its extremely annoying to see them complain about every meta ADC as if they were the worst champions to ever be made, and its always the same dance they complain about a champion, that champions ends up getting nerfed or the meta changes to the point where they aren't well meta anymore, and there the boards go pilling up on the newest ADC to rise to the top.
Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votesJhin gets defended because of meme's, and the moment any form of Jinx buff hits the PBE people Riot.
Glîtchy1 votesJhin gets defended because of meme's, and the moment any form of Jinx buff hits the PBE people Riot.
Well that's because Jinx is in a spot where she can't be nerfed or buffed without becoming under/overpowered.
MunchCrunchLunch3 votesJhin gets defended because of meme's, and the moment any form of Jinx buff hits the PBE people Riot.
because Riot fails to buff a part of a champion that makes them not viable. they buff the champion in general. making them not only viable. but when they reach points that normally they are really good. they become broken.
Jinx ult buff let her fucking W->R kill people at level 6.
jinx is stronger than lucian late game. the problem is that most games end by 15 minutes or so. the last 15 minutes of the game is the 20k gold lead enemy taking down every more towers.
Mizuki Zahra6 votesI think its his passive the double shot that makes him op kinda like yi's passive except Lucian is ranged hes like a ranged ty if all you do is aa even his ult if someone snares enemy and Lucian stands there and ults its same as yi ulting and aaing someone that was also snared
JavelinJoe1 votesIt is his passive entirely. It is free damage that applies multi-target on-hits such as crit, lifesteal, and armor shred from 
. Maybe if it was just a second auto worth of damage and no on-hits were applied he would be in a good spot?
Skorch1 votesNot free
JavelinJoe1 votesYeah it is. It costs him nothing to use. The ability to proc it has a cost, but the passive does not.
Skorch1 votesNothing in anything is free. It has a cost, not in game but when he was made, his passive got a score. Which in turn takes strength away from everything
JavelinJoe1 votesIt has a cost, not in game but when he was made, his passive got a score. Which in turn takes strength away from everything
What are you trying to say? That by design he was somehow made weaker to include a double shot passive? Even if that is the case, that is not a cost in actual game play because it does not suddenly kick in at level 4 or something. He has it at the start all the way to the end.
A cost is mana, energy, health, and/or time (cooldowns). Since Lucian does not have to AA (and is not forced to) after an ability is used, the cost for the ability is for that ability alone, not for the ability and the passive bonus shot. It is like buy 1 get 1 free deals. You can just buy the 1 without getting the second if you want. But why would you? It is free. Same principle applies to his passive bonus shot. Nothing is forcing you to deal more damage, buy why wouldn't you want to?
Skorch1 votesIf you dont know what im talking about then you dont know how champions are made.
Every champion has an equal power budget (attempt to at least) so if they have a REALLY strong E, there is less power for the abilities. Having a good passive, like lucian, makes it so that the rest of his abilities take a small hit.
THAT is what i mean when i say everything has a cost.
JavelinJoe1 votesThat I understand, except for when champions are buffed and nerfed without compensation. Say every champion has a power score (PS) of 10 (+/- 1). If one were to be buffed, then they would have a PS > 10 (+/- 1), and if nerfed, a PS < 10 (+/- 1). The exact number change would depend on if it was a tweak, massive buff, or a gutting. Though wouldn't designing/developing all champions around a close to equal PS automatically balance them? And wouldn't changing them with one-sided buffs/nerfs, destroy this inherent balance?
In terms of Lucian, he has a lot of strengths. Ranged Poke, Kiting ability, a Dash with a CD reducing mechanic, Wave clear, Burst, Minimal Cast Animations/Times, moderate to short CDs, Early Game kill pressure, multiple build paths, smooth mid-Late Game scaling, and a Trade-Winning passive. (might be more)
His 3 biggest weaknesses are that he is an ADC (so squishyness), his kit only has 1 pre-6 AD high scaling ability (post-6 only 1 high AD scaling ability until passive catches up), and Cooldowns.
Lucian never seems to have a "fall-off"/"Plateau" point (like Caitlyn for example) to justify his early game strength. He snowballs relentlessly when given the slightest advantage.
So I find it hard to say his other abilities are weak enough to justify his passive, especially with the recent buff to his cast times.
Skorch1 votesYes PSs ARE modified, but rarely are they buffed from 10 to 11 in your example. usually buffs would be like 8 to 11 accidentally and such.
The point ISNT wether or not Lucian is balanced. It was my COMPLETE hatred for the word Free.
Rákãñ2 votesI'd rather fight Lucian over Caitlyn or Varus anytime. So I rather Lucian be in the meta over the others. Just my opinion.
ForgottenLuck5 votesI would much rather enjoy Cati or Va. They are champs I know how to play vs yet Luci all I can hope is that he misplays. He is so mobile that it is almost impossible to touch him unless you completely get him off guard and that is one of the most annoying aspects of him. Not to mention his overwhelming presence early game with being able to make a good trade with his dash and passive. Give me those Cati or Va easily
GayFluffyUnicorn11 votesVarus and caitlyn are atleast killable. Lucian when even slightly ahead walks up to any champ and instagibs them thanks to animation canceling and his passive.
EROTIC RAID BOSS2 voteshe's also a lot less safe
SpecterVonBaren11 votesNot really? Cait is more safe yes but Varus is mince meat if he gets jumped.
ForgiveColour2 votesYeah but ahri and lulu is totally fine because fuck logic right
Ralanr13 votesDude, people are still saying those two need nerfs.
The world isn't out to get you. We aren't in SR right now.
Incarceration1 votesHe's just fun, he is not that feast or famine, it's just his synergy with certain items.
Arakadia1 votesHe brings nothing but damage though. If his damage isn't the best you wouldn't pick him because all he brings is damage. If his damage is the best than he is insane.
