@riot: when is strength of the ages getting buffed?

Critmaster Garen··5 votes·1,436 views

the way i see it, there are 2 problems with the keystone

a) its unreliable compared to the other 2. its effectiveness is tied to getting those cannon minions to build up stacks. means youre forced to stay in lane because roaming would make you lose out on those stacks.

meanwhile grasp and bond of stone always have a reliable effect.

plus other eventualities like getting zoned from those minions that might prevent from getting cannons. once fully stacked, those 20 hp heals from cannons are entirely irrelevant, as the game has long moved past the lane stage.

b) you get less out of it than the other keystones. in extended fights/trades like typical between tanky champs, grasp of the undying and bond of stones damage reduction grant as much additional health while having a secondary component added to them. either the damage or the damage reduction on a secondary target.

with the nerf to veteran scars health bonus, its time to buff the keystone by moving the lost health down to strength of the ages.

i propose instead of using the unreliable stacking mechanic, to just have the keystone grant 10% max health as a bonus.

if we say a 3.5k to 4k health fighter/tank previously got 140 to 160 health out of veteran scars, giving 10% max health on strength of the ages would almost make up the 100 to 120 health loss after the nerf. (the current 300 hp + 100 hp on a 4k health champion).

also, bonus question. with the addition of the assassin mastery in the cunning tree. do you have other t1 and t2 masteries for the other 2 mastery trees in store?

24 Comments

Jbels2 votes

I know it was supposed to mostly be for tank junglers (I LOVE it on Sion, I feel like I'm getting double the health I normally get from stacking my W) but I feel like this change would be better

Ralanr1 votes

It is awesome on Sion.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

It is awesome on Sion.

its really not. the more health you have the less effective it becomes in comparison to the benefits of the other two.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Well they just buffed it to %max healing which I like but I can only see it being useful for a few tank junglers like zac/naut or supports.

satanasourusrex2 votes

Strength of the ages keystone does need a buff in order to be on the same level as the other keystones, however I disagree on getting rid of the stacking mechanic. As a person who rather enjoys playing super tanky supports like Braum Taric TahmKench the stacking mechanics as stands presents a good way to increase your actual physical hp's with little or no additional effort on your part. item 3301 and item 3302 both work well with this mastery as either you or the adc (depending on start item) should already be focusing on last hitting the cannon minions above the other farm minions as they are worth more. Sure you may loose a few in mid trades, however if you manage to win the trade the payoff is worth the loss (assuming you don't have to back off and end up as food for the enemy jng shortly after).

As we all know item 3083 needs at least 3k hp to proc passive, and strength of the ages is a good way to boost your current hps to make that goal achievable early game. I have had a working item 3083 as early as level 8 several times, and with that kind of early power it really forces the enemy to rethink their plays or regret even trying.

The only real downside to stacking is when you (or your adc and you depending on lane) are being pushed so heavily that farming becomes insanely hard to do, or when your adc is unskilled or afk. In the case of a solo lane (can i even call top that with the current meta of constant ganking/top camping thanks to illoais overpoweredness?) if your being bullied you simply need to ask for help and maybe learn more about each champs strengths and weaknesses to become better as there is no single champ that simply can waltz into any game and barrel roll the entire game (save for when a rework/launch goes horrid (coughIllaoi cough). In bot lane maybe you are doing extremely well tho have an unskilled adc (and there are plenty out there who cant adc, myself included) it's your job to make up for their slack even if your jng has to help shoulder the burden until you and adc are fed enough that crappy playstyle can no longer be used as an excuse (save for the intentional feed). That actually brings me to my next point, why stacking over a flat boost?

A flat boost is just that. Anyone and everyone can have a flat boost should they choose to take it. A flat boost is nothing more than a crutch for those not skilled enough/not working together enough to earn it. With that said yes, you can be the top ranked player in the world and be bullied because you're behind in a certain stat however if that person consistently is destroyed by this fact (not taking ganking or afk or intentional feeding into this scenario) do they really deserve that rank when opponent started with less of that stat and earns his stacks and there for a stat advantage?

BOTTOM LINE stacking is not a broke mechanic, teamwork and play-style however often are.

Now that I have that little rant out of the way I ask have you even though of how a flat 10% hp bonus would throw DrMundo Garen Sion Sejuani Vladimir, and even Soraka completely and disproportionately out into the nether realm of being completely op? Mundo and garen both have annoying, and somewhat unbalanced healing as is. adding a flat 10% to their hp and by abilities means regen would only make them harder to kill at all levels, granted that is the way their kit is designed to be, however adding a item 3065 and/or item 3083 to that already hard to overcome kit would make it almost, if not entirely, noncompetitive. Sions shield and most of sej scale with max hp (although not nearly as insanely as the aforementioned heals) to this degree their defense/offense respectfully would make them shine even brighter in their areas, which typically would be a good thing if not for all the poor champs that it would render useless in fights with them. Items such as item 3053 and item 3124 only helping to make these match ups all the more feared. Vlads passive (40 hp = 1 ap and 1 ap = 1.4 hp non-self-stacking) perhaps can display the best example of why a flat percent boost is just too unbalanced. With vlad it isn't uncommon to see 4037.8 hp (1987 base hp at 18 without runes, items, masteries, abilities, or abilities. liandrys 300, ryli's 400, warmogs 850, visage 500 at full build and level. Even at a 10% boost thats 403.78 bonus hp for a total of 4441.58 hp (discounting his passives transformation of any ap to hp) giving a 111.0395 bonus ap with his passive. doesnt seem like much right? but add that to fairly common ap items on him (liandrys 80, ryli's 100, rabadons 120, will of the ancients 80) for 491.0395 before rabadons passive 20% increase which gives 98.2079 bonus with the theoretical build to total 589.2474 (478.2079 of wich gets put tward more hp (yes i subtracted what he got from passive from his final ap before calculating his ap to hp gain) for an additional 478.2079 hp) In total this resaults in a vlad with 4919.7879 hp and 589.2474 ap. Not something I would like to meet in game. Finally thought I forgot about sona? well her impact would gain a minimal boost as she tends to stack ap over hp, however simply put more max hp = more heals she can do before having to base or worry about being killed by a minion (or champ for that matter) for trying to line up her starfall.

Please consider the entire scope of an idea.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} Now that I have that little rant out of the way I ask have you even though of how a flat 10% hp bonus would throw DrMundo Garen Sion Sejuani Vladimir, and even Soraka completely and disproportionately out into the nether realm of being completely op? Mundo and garen both have annoying, and somewhat unbalanced healing as is. adding a flat 10% to their hp and by abilities means regen would only make them harder to kill at all levels, granted that is the way their kit is designed to be, however adding a item 3065 and/or item 3083 to that already hard to overcome kit would make it almost, if not entirely, noncompetitive. Sions shield and most of sej scale with max hp (although not nearly as insanely as the aforementioned heals) to this degree their defense/offense respectfully would make them shine even brighter in their areas, which typically would be a good thing if not for all the poor champs that it would render useless in fights with them. Items such as item 3053 and item 3124 only helping to make these match ups all the more feared. Vlads passive (40 hp = 1 ap and 1 ap = 1.4 hp non-self-stacking) perhaps can display the best example of why a flat percent boost is just too unbalanced. With vlad it isn't uncommon to see 4037.8 hp (1987 base hp at 18 without runes, items, masteries, abilities, or abilities. liandrys 300, ryli's 400, warmogs 850, visage 500 at full build and level. Even at a 10% boost thats 403.78 bonus hp for a total of 4441.58 hp (discounting his passives transformation of any ap to hp) giving a 111.0395 bonus ap with his passive. doesnt seem like much right? but add that to fairly common ap items on him (liandrys 80, ryli's 100, rabadons 120, will of the ancients 80) for 491.0395 before rabadons passive 20% increase which gives 98.2079 bonus with the theoretical build to total 589.2474 (478.2079 of wich gets put tward more hp (yes i subtracted what he got from passive from his final ap before calculating his ap to hp gain) for an additional 478.2079 hp) In total this resaults in a vlad with 4919.7879 hp and 589.2474 ap. Not something I would like to meet in game. Finally thought I forgot about sona? well her impact would gain a minimal boost as she tends to stack ap over hp, however simply put more max hp = more heals she can do before having to base or worry about being killed by a minion (or champ for that matter) for trying to line up her starfall.

Please consider the entire scope of an idea.

im just gonna cut the second part short.

lets take garen as exmple here. before this patch he had a pretty much exact 50% winrate. he usually doesnt build more than 4k health. if we changed strength of the ages to 10% max health bonus instead of 300 health it woud add up to almost the exact same health values before the veteran scars nerf. (still slightly less)

thats the entire point of this change.

meaning a 4k health garen would get 400 bonus health out of the mastery, when previously he would get 4% from veteran scars (160 health) and 300 health from strength of the ages.

making this 445 health in total almost adding to the 460 before the veteran scars nerf.

the same goes for any juggernaut, bruiser or tank.

soraka wouldnt go this far into the resolve tree anyways. first of all, shes not stacking a lot of health, second she would forfeit windspeakers blessing for bonus hp that dont even hep her, as her heals always drain a fixed % value of health from her.

and dont forget that dead mans was nerfed by 100 hp aswell. the main reason veteran scars was nerfed was, that they wanted to make the resolve tree more attractive to carries for some reason. so the logical fix for bruisers and tanks would be to add the missing hp back on deeper in the tree.

the ideal place would be strength of the ages as a mastery thats currently underpowered and provides a health bonus that scales over the course of the game.

the goal is simply to add those lost hp back into the resolve tree for champions who invest deep into it. theyre not going to be stronger than before this patch.

satanasourusrex1 votes

soraka wit 3k hp can be very scary since she could then proc warmongs so she can stay in lane for ungodly ammounts of time. othr than getting 3k hp shed stack ap wich means something close to the vlad build i mentioned before. in this situation yes the extra hp would help her, so as ive said comes down to if they wish to heal for more, or be there to heal more often.

i often play her like this and can say that from my experience that she is viable, but highly focused so lots of juking skills needed, this way in high silver elos tho i cant say from gold on up.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

soraka wit 3k hp can be very scary since she could then proc warmongs so she can stay in lane for ungodly ammounts of time. othr than getting 3k hp shed stack ap wich means something close to the vlad build i mentioned before. in this situation yes the extra hp would help her, so as ive said comes down to if they wish to heal for more, or be there to heal more often.

i often play her like this and can say that from my experience that she is viable, but highly focused so lots of juking skills needed, this way in high silver elos tho i cant say from gold on up.

she can get that from rod of ages. why forfeit the 10% heal and 22 resistance bonus? thats absolutely huge on soraka. not worth 300 hp when she can get the required amount for warmorgs comfortably from ap items without losing out on anything.

satanasourusrex1 votes

22 resistance does very little for her as most of the damage will come from the opposing marksman, this is of course not accounting for ez, teemo, and other apc's that can rarely be found in bot lane taking up a marksman space. the 10% heal is nice, however it comes back to preference. personally i find that the sooner i can proc warmogs the better. funny how fast the pace of a game can change simply because a support has to base at an early level or because one bot lane can back off and have both members heal before reengaging. also taking strength of the ages allows you to replace an ap/hp item with something that gives you a little more versatility like an item 3504 or item 3222 which can absolutely devastate enemy teams who rely on items like item 3110 or stuns. every support should be equally aware of their marksmans strengths, weaknesses, kits and that of the oppositions and help their team overcome the incoming threats, not just focus on keeping them supplied with one helpful thing.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

22 resistance does very little for her as most of the damage will come from the opposing marksman, this is of course not accounting for ez, teemo, and other apc's that can rarely be found in bot lane taking up a marksman space. the 10% heal is nice, however it comes back to preference. personally i find that the sooner i can proc warmogs the better. funny how fast the pace of a game can change simply because a support has to base at an early level or because one bot lane can back off and have both members heal before reengaging. also taking strength of the ages allows you to replace an ap/hp item with something that gives you a little more versatility like an item 3504 or item 3222 which can absolutely devastate enemy teams who rely on items like item 3110 or stuns. every support should be equally aware of their marksmans strengths, weaknesses, kits and that of the oppositions and help their team overcome the incoming threats, not just focus on keeping them supplied with one helpful thing.

that resistance bonus applies to her ult, and benefits her entire team. it can make a difference in lane aswell as in teamfights later on. considering how often she can throw a heal on her carry, the added 10% and the resistance on top of that can make an absolutely large difference.

and it will make a large difference on already tanky targets as soon as soraka hits 6.

satanasourusrex1 votes

magic resistance lessens incoming magic DAMAGE the same as armor lessens incoming physical damage. Damage refers to any source that would deplete your hp. Ergo magic resistance does not effect your heals at all (tho it would effect how much life an enemy would be able to heal from spellvamp as they would do less damage to you but that is a different topic all together). So once again we find ourselves back at the point of extra healing vs having utility.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

magic resistance lessens incoming magic DAMAGE the same as armor lessens incoming physical damage. Damage refers to any source that would deplete your hp. Ergo magic resistance does not effect your heals at all (tho it would effect how much life an enemy would be able to heal from spellvamp as they would do less damage to you but that is a different topic all together). So once again we find ourselves back at the point of extra healing vs having utility.

what are you even talking about?

i was talking about windspeakers blessing adding a heal bonus and granting bonus resitances. when soraka with windspeakers ults, she heals everyone on her team for an additional 10% health and grants them additional 22 armor and 11 magic resistances for 3 seconds. which is absolutely huge in a clutch situation.

not only that, but throughout trades in the lane phase she does the same for her lane partner in skirmishes and trades.

this bonus effect is irelplacable.

satanasourusrex1 votes

i misunderstood what you were saying regarding the additional defenses, and apologize for my confusion.

22 armor and 11 resistance still aren't that big of deal. over the course of three seconds the damage reduction from the armor may result in the base ad of one auto being blocked in addition to the damage blocked by the recipients own armor if their lucky. the 11 resistance is pretty well useless to most people (save the mid laner) as most other defenses will be geared to physical damage lanes unless the enemy is ap heavy and ap users usually buy some kind of mpen item the least effective being haunting guise/liandrys 15% wich still provides a 1.65 penalty to mresist of 11 resulting in 9.35 resistance being effective. if the enemy team is so stacked that having the additional defenses is effective then i severely question why no one has built a locket or better yet why no one has any armor.

Ive said it many times now, and i will continue to say it, taking the 10% additional heals limits your playstyle to being a mobile health fountain and in game its better to have the utility needed to overcome everything thrown at your team without exhausting your resource pool than to just hope you can outheal all the damage done to everyone while most likely being focused yourself.

Ralanr1 votes

Though then it's just a passive ability that doesn't even activate. Every keystone has an interaction mechanic (even warlords requires you to build crit) which makes them interesting.

nananananacat1 votes

Why not keep the extra health and add the % HP onto it? Ex: After maybe 100 extra HP, you get the extra %HP (previous 4%)? I think it would have to have a limiter on it, because 10% max HP added on to a 500 HP champion at level 1 is already better than new Veteran's Scars.

Dominick Destine1 votes

This is a month old thread... so yeah, it got buffed.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-14T22:29:29.241+0000)

This is a month old thread... so yeah, it got buffed.

the buff isnt worth shit.

by the time you have it fully stacked, youre not sitting in lane farming against your opponent anymore, where the extra sustain would count.

5% max health heal off a cannon minion that you pracrically never get when you need it still doesnt compare against the 6% from triggering grasp of the undying 2 times in a teamfight scenario. trigger it 3 times and it already gives you more health through a fight with an added damage component.

then there is grasps usefulness in lane trades. srry, but it still doesnt compare.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-01-14T22:39:34.401+0000)

the buff isnt worth shit.

Maybe give it more than 5 hours before deciding.

5% max health heal

Was it not 6%? I'll check.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T22:57:25.921+0000)

Maybe give it more than 5 hours before deciding.

Was it not 6%? I'll check.

it was 5% and the reason the 5% are useless is the same why the 20 health were useless. maybe one out of 10 fights you have a random cannon minion die in a teamfight down the lane, giving you some extra health back.

or you could go with grasp of the undying which is better every fight due to the added damage to the health return, and is more useful in lane trades.

this was more of a token "buff" than an actual buff.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T06:54:52.003+0000)

it was 5%

Checked and double checked, its 6%.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T16:21:05.857+0000)

Checked and double checked, its 6%.

ok. it could be 10% and you still would almost never get it when you need it.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

i sort of like it on tanky junglers, but i still would agree it needs a buff - grasp of the undying is just mostly the better option.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqTNLPMy,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-01-14T22:45:58.932+0000)

i sort of like it on tanky junglers, but i still would agree it needs a buff - grasp of the undying is just mostly the better option.

the more health you have, the better become the other two in comparison to strength of the ages. especially on tanky champs its less useful.

best case scenario would be where you have a champ who has health scaling damage on more than one ability. in than case it would even out with grasp of the undying.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Actually, for your own personal survivability Strength of the Ages provides more durability than Bond of Stone does until you have like 5k hp. Plus I don't want to take damage for other players that couldn't dodge a skillshot anyway.

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