"We destroyed the cooldown on Lucian's E because he could dash around endlessly"

1 800 GGTOOEZ·Sep 20, 2015·246 votes·10,422 views

169 Comments

LeeerzeichenSep 20, 201565 votes

She has no double shot passiv, her dashes are shorter, to dash she need to attack someone, she can't cancel her attacks, they can miss, have a slower windup and deal 10% less damage.

"We nerfed Ekko because we dont want him to be played as Tank" Malphite

UltraSceptileSep 20, 201512 votes

{quoted}

She has no double shot passiv, her dashes are shorter, to dash she need to attack someone, she can't cancel her attacks, they can miss, have a slower windup and deal 10% less damage.

"We nerfed Ekko because we dont want him to be played as Tank"

And Lucian's is an ability. Hers is a passive. She has infinitely scaling damage that...gasp....also synergizes with her infinite hopping. Kalista design is broken and should be deleted, it's that simple.

LeeerzeichenSep 20, 20152 votes

lucian has infinitely scaling damage and dashes too.

Axis the DragonSep 20, 20152 votes

His damage stops increasing the moment he stops building items

Like what

RavenMagusSep 20, 20157 votes

So does Kalista's.

Saying Kalista has infinite damage is a really common misconception.

Rend is just bonus damage on each autoattack, basically. To do infinite damage with it, she needs to attack infinite times... at which point every other ADC in the game has done infinite damage too.

softest boySep 20, 20152 votes

I think they mean on one ability. The ability's damage isn't just dependent on items, it's dependent on how many basic attacks you've landed on the target. A lucian Q is going to damage an enemy once for a constant damage every time.

RavenMagusSep 20, 20155 votes

That's just the thing, though.

It's basically a passive that says "Kalista deals X extra damage on each autoattack"... except it's actually worse (..sort of) since it doesn't happen until you hit the button.

Yes, it all happens at once, so the one big number makes it seem like it just does stupid (or "infinite") amounts of damage. It's really just Kalista being deceptive, seeming to do low damage with each attack when she's really just hitting harder each time.

I will admit that it's incredibly good for securing Dragon and Baron, though that doesn't seem to be what people focus on when they complain about Kalista's 'infinite damage.'

Axis the DragonSep 20, 20151 votes

Dunno why you're being downvoted, you're being very logical and civil

Anyway, despite her being gated by Rend, Kalista still had to have her autos' damage reduced by 10% just because of how much damage Rend does

Honestly if they'd just reduce Rend's damage per stack, they could put her autos back to 100%. Because of Rend's infinitely scaling mechanic, she's pretty much reliant on it to deal damage since she doesn't really do much outside of it

LeetriSep 21, 20153 votes

He's being downvoted because he's not circlejerking all over the "Kalista is super OP" thing the board has. Doesn't matter if you have 100% waterproof arguments and is perfectly civil, if you don't agree that Kalista/Vayne/Riven/Zed/Yasuo/whatever is super OP you're being downvoted.

Knight SoIaire Sep 20, 201513 votes

tell that to me when you will get 20% of yuour max ah as magic damage and once she presses e

kalista doesnt lack damage

LeeerzeichenSep 20, 20152 votes

if you are a squishy 20% max hp as magic damage dont hurt as much as a double crit from lucians passiv and if you are a tank this damage gets heavily reduces because Kalista has no magic pen. Kalista has no crit in her standart build, so her constant 120% ad per attack are comparable to 250% ad every secound attack.

MongooseSep 20, 20152 votes

how noob are you?

the %max hp is calculated between kalista and her soulbound, not the target.

Photos of GhostsSep 20, 20155 votes

Excuse me, what? No, NO, NO, it's a 20% TARGET hp.

Sir YamazukiSep 20, 201556 votes

{quoted}

She has no double shot passiv, her dashes are shorter, to dash she need to attack someone, she can't cancel her attacks, they can miss, have a slower windup and deal 10% less damage.

"We nerfed Ekko because we dont want him to be played as Tank"

Lucian's dash being on a low cool down required a target, nice try though. His dash starts at an 18 second cool down and has a mana cost so he can't dash while oom and drops down to 14 without a target. It doesn't matter if his single dash covers more distance when Kalista hops 10+ times during that time which ends up covering more distance. Several shorter dashes is better than 1 slightly longer dash.

UltraSceptileSep 20, 201546 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umUOXgtK,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-09-20T15:13:46.357+0000)

Lucian's dash being on a low cool down required a target, nice try though. His dash starts at an 18 second cool down and has a mana cost so he can't dash while oom and drops down to 14 without a target. It doesn't matter if his single dash covers more distance when Kalista hops 10+ times during that time which ends up covering more distance. Several shorter dashes is better than 1 slightly longer dash.

Old Lucian had like a 2 second CD dash and had stellar kiting potential. It also costed no mana.

But Kalista is on a whole new level.

Tails DollSep 20, 20152 votes

It had 2 second CD with a target though. I think it was close to 4/6 seg if he didnt AA anyone.

Byakuya KuchikiSep 20, 20154 votes

and kalista's isn't usable without a target at all so i think a 4 sec. cd is better than no ability

Tails DollSep 20, 201511 votes

Kalista can still use it with Q with has an insane range and good dmg, plus you cant really compare Kalista mobility in the battle field wiht old Luc mobilitity.

Byakuya KuchikiSep 20, 20152 votes

yea on an 8 second cd. so she can throw 3 q's max in a teamfight

doombotMECHASep 20, 201515 votes

if she's in a tf, she has a target. don't forget she's can wallhop with q or aa on a jungle mob too.

NarasimhaSep 20, 20155 votes

It didn't cost mana when he was at his strongest
The cooldown was reduced by his passive.
It wasn't about his mobility. It was about the burst that came with it. THAT is why he had his range reduced to 500.

Sir YamazukiSep 20, 201514 votes

{quoted}

It didn't cost mana when he was at his strongest

The cooldown was reduced by his passive.

It wasn't about his mobility. It was about the burst that came with it. THAT is why he had his range reduced to 500.

I said it currently does
Which requires a target to use, so I don't see your point
I'm not talking about damage

NarasimhaSep 20, 20154 votes

The whole point is WHY he was nerfed
So does her mobility...? I mean, I guess you could Q around, but that's just retarded
They're not disjoint issues. They're very linked.

Sir YamazukiSep 20, 20159 votes

{quoted}

The whole point is WHY he was nerfed

So does her mobility...? I mean, I guess you could Q around, but that's just retarded

They're not disjoint issues. They're very linked.

I'm not talking about why he was nerfed, so....? I said he currently has a mana cost, what does that have to do with the fact he was nerfed when I'm specifically talking about current Lucian.
I didn't say it didn't...? Do you even bother reading? People are excusing her mobility because it required a target, Lucian having a lower cool down also required a target is my point.
So? Again, no where did I mention anyone's damage or why Lucian was nerfed, I only stated both of them required a target and regarding distance Kalista's dashes totals up to more distance than Lucian's dash, what does any of that have to do with damage? You're bringing up irrelevant factors.

Quit bringing irrelevant factors that aren't even a part of anything.

JingerbeardmanSep 20, 20156 votes

The both of you are arguing over two entirely different topics... Narasimha is trying to clarify the reasoning why Lucian received his nerfs. You Lord Yamazuki are still trying to compare Lucian's (I do not even know if you are arguing about old Lucian or re-tuned Lucian at this point with how all over the place you are) to Kalista's mobility.

The entire point of the thread is to bring to light the Disparity in Riots design principles by comparing their reasoning behind Lucian's repeated nerfs to his mobility while Kalista's mobility, which is far worse in comparison, has remained untouched for close to a year now. Just like Lucian, Kalista for a long time was considered weak and unable to compete, and similar to Lucian came into the limelight as actually incredibly strong about midway through the next season after her release. The difference is that Lucian was re-balanced a while before the worlds patch went live, nerfing nearly every aspect of his kit at first except for the unhealthy dash mechanic that they added to make up for his massive range reduction. After realizing that his dash change made him just as powerful as he was before the reduction... if not worse, which then resulted in several patches of further changes. Eventually he lost his slow cleanse, had the cooldown significantly increased in its early ranks, and a mana cost got tacked on that gets less with each rank in the skill. All of this was done in order to reduce his over bearing mobility which combined with his passive made him a powerhouse of pain.

Kalista on the other hand has not seen a whole lot of nerfs. In fact has seen more buffs over the last year until this most recent patch change which reduces her oathsworn interactions and the far earlier nerf to her basic attack scaling (which makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever when looking at the game as a whole... why does one champion get less damage on her basic attacks when that is one of the biggest reasons for building the stat in the first place). The only reason that her mobility has remained untouched is because it is supposed to be the identity that she was completely built around. Riot would rather gut every single other aspect of her before ever touching the one thing that has been the problem from the start.

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20153 votes

Riot would rather gut every single other aspect of her before ever touching the one thing that has been the problem from the start.

Riot tries to avoid nerfing what they see as the core ability for a champion. Looking at Lucian and Kassadin . What was the final straw that broke the camels back? For Lucian, it was his passive, for Kass, his ult. Riot believes in trying to preserve the core of a champion. Lucians core wasn't his dash, it was his gunslinger style with his passive.

Kalista was meant to be a relentless pursuer with her passive. Of course we all know there is no such thing as an ADC that goes aggro unless they are on clean up duty. Hence players took Kalista in the opposite direction.

YumaS2AstralSep 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She has no double shot passiv, her dashes are shorter, to dash she need to attack someone, she can't cancel her attacks, they can miss, have a slower windup and deal 10% less damage.

"We nerfed Ekko because we dont want him to be played as Tank"

Isn't Malphite supposed to be played as a tank?

Ekko on other hand was intended to be played as an assassin.

LeeerzeichenSep 21, 20153 votes

Like kalista and lucian. kalista was intended to hop every second, lucian was not.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 20, 20159 votes

They're different champions, do you know how Shitty kalista would be without her jumps?

JbelsSep 20, 20157 votes

Her dashes are half the length and require a target, or a thrown Q.

PoskeSep 20, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Her dashes are half the length and require a target, or a thrown Q.

To be fair lucian also kinda required a target to be insanely mobile

JbelsSep 20, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umUOXgtK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-20T14:40:36.948+0000)

To be fair lucian also kinda required a target to be insanely mobile

Which involved insane micro in a team fight

Tails DollSep 20, 20154 votes

Unlike kalista, who just shifts clicks.

Byakuya KuchikiSep 20, 20151 votes

and then you attack a minion instead of a champion. kalista requires pretty insane microing to actually do it well

Tails DollSep 20, 20156 votes

Untill you get item 3085 then it's all K.

UltraSceptileSep 20, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Her dashes are half the length and require a target, or a thrown Q.

Lucian's infinite dashing required a target too, and required mana because you also needed to throw in a Q or W at some points to really knock down the cooldown to the level of Kalista.

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Has shit DPS compared to Lucian...

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 20, 20156 votes

Being able to outsmite a jungler with your E.

"Shit DPS"

DrNovaSep 20, 20156 votes

The worst kalista QQ argument ever, and I hate when people say that.

If you are letting her sit there and stack spears in your mob.. Well that never happens.

Theory == reality.

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 20, 20159 votes

No. No it is not a shit argument.

No ability, NO SINGULAR ABILITY, should be able to have better objective securing than smite.

"Wow if ur lettin her si-" I'm talking about situations where she's even remotely started an objective. You give her 8 seconds at level 8-10~, she'll have more than enough spears to outsmite your jungler. Period. This is not good. This is dumb, this is awful and it is only one part on the laundry list of things that Kalista needs to be gutted for.

Theory may not equal reality, but the fact that this could even possibly happen is fucking stupid. There's a reason Cho and Nunu consume abilities are maxed at 1000 damage on neutrals.

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20157 votes

Theory may not equal reality, but the fact that this could even possibly happen is fucking stupid. There's a reason Cho and Nunu consume abilities are maxed at 1000 damage on neutrals.

Feast always deals 1000 (+ 70% AP) true damage against minions and monsters. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho'gath

Insane objective control isn't anything new. If Kalistas E dealt true damage, I'd agree with you, but considering it's physical damage, it's not quite as crazy as Cho'Gath.

QuortSep 20, 20153 votes

And who could forget... NUNU! :O

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20153 votes

Yup, a second smite right up his sleeve.

Asayake 5150glowSep 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Feast always deals 1000 (+ 70% AP) true damage against minions and monsters. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho'gath

Insane objective control isn't anything new. If Kalistas E dealt true damage, I'd agree with you, but considering it's physical damage, it's not quite as crazy as Cho'Gath.

First, compare the range of Cho's ult, to her E. Besides, that's another point. It's his ult, and it's her E. Second, I'm pretty sure Riot meant for it to have 1000 max damage. Third, which is basically 1 again, srry, is how close Cho' needs to get to use his ult. And he can't use it every single time he trades. Fourth, which is basically 3 again, and again, srry, Cho needs to build AP in order for that to be meaningful. Which means he won't be as tanky. Which means he won't get close enough. Unless he lands his Q, of course.

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20153 votes

The point he made was that no champ should have better objective control than Smite. That point has long been incorrect. Heck, while many champs may not deal true damage, surpassing 1000 damage is FAR from being impossible.

If you look in my earlier posts, I agree her E is a bit bonkers, but her having some new fangled tool that has never been around before is absolute Bullshit.

Penta PenguinSep 20, 20152 votes

She has been gutted, -10% attack damage means she's categorically the weakest Marksman when it comes to sustained damage and team-fighting and she has no way through items to overcome that, like Ashe's mini-crits scaling up.

She can preserve herself an her soulbound well, or she an keep you from running in a winning fight, but the middle-ground and dueling doesn't really belong to her. Half of her kit is dedicated to stuff like vision and utility... so how does she fare against someone like Graves or Draven if she doesn't have a massive item advantage?

Also Kalista is not even the first champion to be able to outsmite

MeesterMooSep 20, 20152 votes

Wow really?

Kuroi86Sep 20, 20158 votes

Yes, really. Build a typical crit build on any champion, go ahead, pick one. Even at 2.5 AS, relying on AA's alone, Kalista will have worse DPS than EVERY other champion in the game. Without her E, there would literally be no reason to play her.

MeesterMooSep 20, 20152 votes

I know, I was being sarcastic. They are two different champions.

DeusVultSep 20, 20154 votes

she does have one of the lowest AA only damage of ANY champion across the entire game

Then again, she also is nearly impossible to hit for the entire melee champ roster, and the same goes for ranged champs who rely heavily on skillshots.

But just talking about her damage, she can then rip her AAs out of you to make up for the damage lost. So while her AAs only deal 90% of her total AD, and her attack speed while hopping is 66% of her normal AS instead of 100%, she then gains 60(+0.6 total AD) physical damage per auto-attack, stacking up to 254 times for a whopping total of 8156+(7650% of her total AD) physical damage. Not really anything to scoff at if you take into account her skills, rather than just her AA damage.