He already has a passive that gives him a shield, so why should he have double crit? I feel like the double crit is just a stat increase with no gameplay. He simply doesn't need double crit. To compensate, increase his q base damage by 10.
AyRe CoNteMpT4 votesi'd say rework his entire kit and give him a personality and identity because right now he is somewhere between nothing and everything.
he has sustained damage, burst, is tanky through his passive, has about infinite mobility, utility, cc, more mobility, aoe damage, waveclear, no resource cost, shreds armor....
his damaging abilities are designed to be that of an ad assassin while giving him fighter-cooldowns and bruiser tankyness all combined with tank utility. like thefuck? i'd say there is alot of reworking to do. remove his bursty-potential and give him more sustained damage and utility to move him away from the assassin role and more towards a low-initial damage but high-sustained damage utility fighter.
darkmatchwaldo2 votesHe's the most glass melee champ in the game his base health is awful, the only way he gets bruiser tanky is if he has other damage sources on the team and can afford to build 
AyRe CoNteMpT3 voteshe has a shield. ever heared of khazix, zed, EVELYN and plenty others? man, how can you talk about balance if you dont even know all champions yet.
darkmatchwaldo1 votesWhat are you even talking about look it up...
Yasuo base health: 517
: 531
: 579
: 572
His shield blocks one AA, if you use an ability into it you deserve to get beaten by him. If you waste your main CC while his wall is up, you deserve to get beat by him.
AyRe CoNteMpT2 votesyeah on levels 1-3 you can probably still proc his shield for free with an auto attack. later on and in teamfights you cant so his effective health is much much higher than those champions you listed PLUS HE REFRESHES HIS SHIELD UPON ULTING.
darkmatchwaldo1 votesIt's only good in lane though. When teamfights break out everyone focuses him, it doesn't matter if it gets refreshed when he's being focused by 4 people.
AyRe CoNteMpT2 votesyeah you know when teamfights break out and everyone focuses him through 1020 hp of shield and a windwall and jumping around mobility and knocks then i guess there is really nothing he can do because his team sucks so hard they didnt follow up his perfect 3 man ult around the empty dragon pit while they just recalled after taking baron. fucking noob team, yasuo is so UP man look his winrate not even 80% proves everything.
WhatAGeinius4 votesThe reason that Yasuo's crit passive exists is to shape the way his power develops over the course of the match (i.e. huge spike mid-game, outscaled by hard carries late). The real problem is how sporadic and match-up dependent his power is in the early game, which is something that probably needs to be worked on.
However, to say that Yasuo "doesn't need double crit" is extremely incorrect. His entire kit along with his stats are balanced around the fact that he has it. To say that you could just haphazardly toss it out the window and replace it with a pathetic 10 damage increase to his Q is practically equivalent to saying that you could replace his portrait with an image of a melee minion, because that's about how useful he would be to his team.
Virgin Ray1 votesSpeaking of minions, how did u get that icon?
IronwallJackson4 votes
- remove 25% of a champion's DPS
- compensate by adding 10 base damage to his empowered auto
Yes, this definitely an idea based on a solid grasp of the intricacies of the game.
YumScrumptious963 votesThat is the best joke I've heard in a bit. Remove his passive and replace it with what? Increasing his Q base damage by ten? That would barely even affect him. You know his Q base damage only goes up to 100 at max right? 10 more damage isn't going to replace what makes him strong. To compensate his crits do 10% less damage, not very high and I believe it should be 5% or 10% more but still.
zacktootall3 votesyou think he is joking yas is broken in the game right now and his solution is pretty good and much clearer then the solution your trying to give
YumScrumptious962 votesNo he is not. He's countered by a multitude of champs. Try playing Yasuo for a bit and tell me how that goes. And if you still can't beat him play Heim
zacktootall3 votesi have played yas and my opinion still stands and as for heim burst seems to do well against him in lane....(wait for it).... oh look yas is so broken right now that he has a high burst potential look at that.... so yeah... he broken.
YumScrumptious962 votesI can't tell if that's sarcasm or not. Kinda hard to know through text.
zacktootall2 votesits not i just play a game against heim and im mastery lvl 4 with yas and dont plan on finishing that untill he gets a change (good/bad/indifferent).
YumScrumptious961 votesMy point is, he's not as OP as most people claim, they just don't know how to counter him.
zacktootall2 votessomething tells me you dont quiet know that your self.
YumScrumptious962 votesSomething tells me you haven't graduated from elementary school. And I know a lot on Yasuo, I've played him since June, I know what counters him.
AyRe CoNteMpT2 votesoh please yasuo master who played him since yune and has 25 ranked games on him, enlighten us
YumScrumptious961 votesWow, you can use LolKing. If you knew how things worked, you'd know that Yasuo is a very popular ban and that I don't always get that role. Also, I rarely play ranked as its very annoying when the bans are terrible and they lock in Illaoi. So you know, being able to spell does help with arguments. I gave good advice on countering and the other person just refuted them and called me stupid without trying them and now you join in. Why are you even here?
zacktootall2 votesb/c you the 1% are wrong while the other 99% is right
YumScrumptious962 votesYou really believe that? You are the 70% who complain on any champion when you lose to them.
zacktootall1 votesnope just yas and illaoi b/c they are broken
YumScrumptious961 votesI just played a game where Illaoi got completely smashed to pieces by Rengar, a jungler playing top. Subsequently, their team focused me (Yasuo) every single fight and no matter how good I was doing I got killed instantly because they all focused me with their CC's and my team didn't have any quick damage to kill them before I died. So, given that experience, Yasuo and Illaoi aren't broken, as if they were broken they would be easily winning.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votessorry i couldnt find your tips on countering him anywhere in this thread. i must be retarded.
also, i really just wanna clarify that i dont think yasuo is too strong. i actually think he is too weak. yeah, i just said that. my problem with yasuo is that i believe he can not be balanced. his kit doesnt allow him to be balanced.
lets take a look at two champions, zed and yasuo.
zed is an assassin which main purpose is to kill quick and get out. if he can kill too reliable and too quick, its not balanced but no matter what, after killing someone he has downtimes of mobility and damage and if you balance his killpower to have some restrictions, he is a very fine champion, which he currently is.
yasuo is an "assassin"/"fighter" whose main role is to be a super high damage sort of "carry" champion. he has literally no cooldowns (even on his ult), unlimited mobility, UTILITY, HARD CC which is a gapcloser too, armor shred, a VERY STRONG SHIELD that refreshes upon ulting, DOUBLE CRITCHANCE, ANOTHER HARD CC with low cooldown, NO COST on his abilities... wow.
so to get to my point: he has way more things than zed while kinda having the same role: kill someone. now if zed can kill someone, he is on cooldowns and thats basically all he does. its a good ability to be able to kill someone but thats what assassins usually do. if yasuo kills someone, he isnt on cooldown and the tankyness with his automatically refreshing shield and the windwall and the permanent knockups is too insanely good. he just has SO MUCH MORE he brings to a fight than zed and most other champions.
now the point is, if he CAN kill someone, he doesnt pay for it and the tankyness and utility he has is too crazy high for an assassin-style champion. if he CANT kill someone tho, the tankyness and utility he has is ofcourse way too low for a supportive cc/bruiser champion.
this means, if he has the damage to reliably kill someone, he is the best champion in the game no counterplay while if he doesnt have the damage to kill someone, he flat out sucks and if someone picks him on my team i usually dodge. there is no middle ground. can he kill or cant he? currently he cant and im very happy about that but it just sucks for yasuo players. well i must say i dont understand why someone enjoys playing him anyways but if they like torturing themselves...
so what i propose is a rework that clarifies his role as a dps/utility fighter and moves him away from the assassin/cc style of play so he can finally be in a balanced spot.
YumScrumptious961 votesI agree his assassin capabilities are insanely good, but there are ways to stop that. Skarner, for instance, can ult Yasuo and whoever is around can just kill him while he's suppressed. Or champions with escapes, like Katarina or Zed, can avoid being killed while killing him. Yasuo's priority role is fighter and that's what he does unless he gets fed in which case he just becomes an assassin.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesevery champion in the game can be countered by skarners ult except maybe olaf if you wanna force an argument.
yasuos assassination has less counterplay than assassins assassinations which is retarded. his KIT needs windows of opportunity and simply counterplay. hard-CC can never be the only answer to a champion.
YumScrumptious961 votesYeah I gave an example, its what people do to backup their point. You still don't understand my point, Yasuo can be CC'ed and deleted. If they have a team with low CC or they can't kill him when he's CC'ed, its their fault.
zacktootall2 votesagain people i could care less about my englishon a thread about a video game im not here to impress you im here to vioce my opinion and as long as you can understand me i could care less about my god damn gammer geez and rly only june u know nothing then
YumScrumptious962 votesI'm almost certain that you did that on purpose which makes it more sad. Only June? You know the patches change the game and I've been playing Yasuo since before the tank meta so that gave me plenty of time to learn what he's bad against.
zacktootall2 voteswhat on purpose? and yes that is a good amount of time and i admet that i my self have not played yas nearly as much as i should have for this chat but i have freinds who have and they all say the samething "yas is a broken champ"
YumScrumptious962 votesYour use of the English language on purpose. Don't listen to what all your friends say until you experience it yourself.
zacktootall2 votesi have and he is broken how many times do i have to say this good god
he is broken he is broken he is broken he is broken he is broken
and what do you mean by "Your use of the English language on purpose."?
YumScrumptious961 votesSaying something doesn't make it true. Yasuo can be shut down by many champions. And I was referring to your multitude of spelling errors.
darkmatchwaldo1 votesYeah yasuo sucks butt vs a multitude of mid lane champs who aren't garbage players
I say that because i've beaten bad 
and 
players.
A person who doesn't suck at this game can completely destroy you on 
no matter how good you are with yasuo. Remove the immobile squishy skillshot reliant mage and suddenly he's not so OP no matter how much free crit he gets.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesThe 10% reduction is actually pretty significant, because it's a multiplicative damage reduction rather than just -10% to his Crit Damage. His basic crits are 180% (150% on Qs), and his IE crits are 225% (187.5% on Qs). If it was reduced by 15/20%, he'd be sitting at 170/160% and 212.5/200% Crit Damage That's...really weak. Like, that would probably kill his mid-game spike and make him Lee Sin levels of terrible late-game.
YumScrumptious961 votesYeah true. I was a little caught up in telling the person off to realize the scaling.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votespeople saying lee sin has a bad lategame always reminds me of the fact that the majority of league players are stuck in silver. makes sense i guess.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesPeople who use rank instead of facts as an argument tend to have nothing of value to add to a conversation. Makes some sense, though, as they'd be far too busy measuring their dick and grinding to care about how a debate works.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesi can tell you how a debate works: one person states a thesis and backs it up with an argument, the other person states states his argument. very simple right?
well, then why do you not back your thesis "lee sin has a weak lategame" up with an argument? i dont feel inclined to argue with silver kids.
you say lee sin has no lategame. i say you are silver for a reason. both of these assertions have no foothold without reason behind them but if you wanna turn this "diamondplayer knows more than silverplayer by default" thing into a discussion, go ahead and explain lee sins weak lategame.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesLee Sin's late game falls off severely, even compared to most other bruisers, due to how it's scaled. He has better innate offense than defense, but both his offense and defense rely heavily on scaling for effectiveness. This leads to the catch-22 of either not building enough defense to survive in a fight or lacking the offensive power to be much of a threat for any reason other than kicking someone into his team. The only teams against which either situation plays into Lee's favor is when the enemy team--each player individually, as well as the group--is worse than the Lee and his team.
And yes, there's a reason I'm silver. Because I've played barely more than 50 ranked games in 6 years. As opposed to 3k+ games on just Summoner's Rift, at least a thousand more in the various other modes combined...It's because I play Ranked less than 1% of the time.
I have no real compulsion to consistently play Ranked. The only benefit I would get is getting called boosted for having a different opinion, instead of being called too low-ranked to have a valid opinion. Neither of which are or would be true, but it doesn't stop the gobshites who continually vomit this garbage.
I will cede that a diamond player has more mechanical skill at the game, definitely. Or, at the very least, far more patience, in some players' cases. But you don't get me to respect your opinion by being reddit trash.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesits funny how low elo players always get so offended when you call them out on their elo. its like you might even be right, but it doesnt matter anymore because all you do is throw around insults and complaints. i enjoy it.
Lee sins lategame doesnt fall off at all because he has very high base damage, very high scaling combined with %missing health damage, aoe slows and the strongest cc in the game.
sure he does get outscaled many things by many champions and so his relative effectiveness falls off but his power doesnt. he doesnt suddenly stop scaling (like, for example, elise does because of her lack of an ultimate) and he has many valid build paths to be a high threat while being very tanky. also, the most important point about lee sin is his kick which simply never falls off. if you kick a key target into your team, ofcourse thats very good and it can end a game at any point. but even if you dont kick him into your team but simply away from your team or over a wall, thats allready winning fights. if lee sin kicks a tank through your team, that also ends fights. he has many options to kick and his ultimate remains game-deciding no matter how long the game goes. even if he builds almost full tank you cant simply ignore him because of how dangerous his kick is.
if you build more damage on him, his assassination potential on squishies doesnt fall off either because of how insanely high his scaling numbers are. the only thing that falls off is his dueling potential but since he can always kick you, he cant be killed in a duel either. and this argument "vs good players this doesnt work" is a silver player saying vs good players HE COULDNT pull it off. in a realistic scenario, good players usually play vs other good players so that equalizes and the only thing that remains is if it is physically possible for lee sin to reach a target and kick it. andyes, it is absolutely physically possible to do it from the design of his kit and to prevent it, resources must be used on him either to cc him or to kill him. this means he is infact a threat and even tho the threat is not purely damage, it sometimes is much greater a threat than damage.
that said, lee sin doesnt fall off.
compare him to elise: her damage falls off because she has no ultimate and her mid to lategame damage is not burst but DPS which, if she builds squishy, has no way of dealing while if she builds tanky, is simply too low. elises mid to lategame is still impactfull but can not be compared to her earlygame or other champions mid to lategame. thats why it can be said that she doesnt only fall off compared to other champions but also compared to her own power of impact during the game. this does not apply to lee sin, thus it can be said he doesnt fall off.
lee sins main power is not that his physical constitution is extremely strong. his main power is that he has immense pressure due to the combination of mobility, utility and damage. this pressure stays the same all game long or against some teamcomps, even rises.
PS: about the rank thing - it is theoretically possible to know things about the game as a low elo player that a higher elo player doesnt know, especially if the higher elo player is a yasuo main, but generally speaking, league of legends doesnt use mechanical skills. its 99% knowledge and experience and only 1% mechanics. faker doesnt actually have insane mechanics (they are super high class elite, thats for sure, but he isnt the only one or better than every other pro at this), but he simply knows his shit much better. he simply knows the damage he can deal and take very well and he knows the in-fight options of players very well. its knowledge and experience that makes good players seem good, not their ability to press 3 buttons in fast succession. everyone can do that.
in league, a general concept is "if you know it, you can do it" but knowing needs alot of experience. for example, i played alot of warcraft 3 tft and i was very good at it. in warcraft, you needed alot more mechanics than in league and also alot more strategic knowledge but since the game was so much more complex and involved many more units and factors than league, you didnt have to know the specifics to be a good player.
this means, you could actually have a session with a player where you teach him everything you know in theory and then let him play and he will be able to apply a certain amount of things you taught him just from telling him. in league tho, it is possible to only teach very basic concepts in theory alone and most things must be learned from practicing because of how much more this game relies on experience. you either know from experience that you can win this duel with 20 hp left or you dont know it. no matter how many lessons you learned, you will not do the math before dueling so you simply have to experience it plus you gotta have a good feeling for it.
this leads to the conclusion that purely theoretical experience, even though valuable in some areas, is very unreliable in league of legends in general. especially when talking about champion power and balance. a player with many more games than another player generally should have more experience, regardless of rank. but a player who played, say, 1000 games in diamond is inclined to know more about the same thing than a player who played 1000 games in silver. this is due to the circumstances in which either player made their experiences. the diamond player simply had a much harsher environment in which mistakes are punished more precisely and more commonly. this means, higher level experience is closer to facts than lower level experience.
for example: champ X against champ Y matchup in toplane. who wins? you say champ X because mobafire said so. i say champ Y because i main champ Y and i played 300 games against champ X and i know the limits of champ X because i played against people who were able to use champ X to its limit. even if you played the same amount of games in this matchup, chances are your opponents didnt use as much power of champ X as my opponents and you didnt use as much power of champ Y as me because if you did, you'd be in diamond too.
does that make sense to you? if a challenger player, who is CURRENTLY CHALLENGER (not these people who had 5 accounts in top 10 challenger but are now plat 2) comes to me and explains me some things about jungling, i will surely listen and be thankful to get the chance to improve myself. even tho they are not neccessarily better at everything, they will have with 100% certainy at least one area of knowledge where they surpass me and i can learn from it.
i just feel like writing more, so another example i got for you: my manager is gold something and he knows alot about the game for a gold player, i must say. he always complains about how stupid his allies are and how he knows everything better and he should play with diamonds too. in fact, he very much belongs in gold and not in diamond. he knows many things that other golds dont but he also lacks alot of knowledge a plat potentially has. he lacks experience and definitely awareness. also, an interesting concept about knowledge is that one information alone can be worthless and its value only shows when combining it with other information. lets say you got information A, B and C and you feel like you know alot. now sadly, all those informations dont do shit for you unless you got information Q aswell. since most scenarios in league consist of many many MANY variables, generalizing scenarios is very hard and you either need ALOT of practice experience or you need to understand which fundamental basics have the most value and in exactly this last point, lower level players tend to understand much less (or they wouldnt be lower level). this is just tendencies, so you could be the most knowledgeable player in the world even tho you are silver. chances are pretty slim tho and if you want someone who is higher level to respect your knowledge, you gotta actually drop knowledge and back it up.
i know its hard and i have probably never seen a lower elo player drop respectable knowledge except once some diamond midlaner was able to completely own and destroy every challenger midlaner and explain to them how midlane works and they were like "eh wtf new world order" but that aside, silvers fail to impress.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ulwxqm9H,comment-id=0000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-06T10:00:04.552+0000)
Lee sins lategame doesnt fall off at all because he has very high base damage, very high scaling combined with %missing health damage, aoe slows and the strongest cc in the game.
sure he does get outscaled many things by many champions and so his relative effectiveness falls off but his power doesnt. he doesnt suddenly stop scaling (like, for example, elise does because of her lack of an ultimate) and he has many valid build paths to be a high threat while being very tanky. also, the most important point about lee sin is his kick which simply never falls off. if you kick a key target into your team, ofcourse thats very good and it can end a game at any point. but even if you dont kick him into your team but simply away from your team or over a wall, thats allready winning fights. if lee sin kicks a tank through your team, that also ends fights. he has many options to kick and his ultimate remains game-deciding no matter how long the game goes. even if he builds almost full tank you cant simply ignore him because of how dangerous his kick is.
if you build more damage on him, his assassination potential on squishies doesnt fall off either because of how insanely high his scaling numbers are. the only thing that falls off is his dueling potential but since he can always kick you, he cant be killed in a duel either.
that said, lee sin doesnt fall off.
compare him to elise: her damage falls off because she has no ultimate and her mid to lategame damage is not burst but DPS which, if she builds squishy, has no way of dealing while if she builds tanky, is simply too low. elises mid to lategame is still impactfull but can not be compared to her earlygame or other champions mid to lategame. thats why it can be said that she doesnt only fall off compared to other champions but also compared to her own power of impact during the game. this does not apply to lee sin, thus it can be said he doesnt fall off.
lee sins main power is not that his physical constitution is extremely strong. his main power is that he has immense pressure due to the combination of mobility, utility and damage. this pressure stays the same all game long or against some teamcomps, even rises.
That's what "falls off late-game" normally means. Relative to their archetype, they are on the low end of the graph in late-game power.
This is also what people mean when they say Yasuo's late-game falls off. No, it's not weak, but it's weaker than other melee (and regular) carries without optimal setup.
I thought that was common language on the boards, but I guess having to point out the exact meaning of the phrase in that context is a simpler misunderstanding to correct, especially since you already said it yourself.
In short; "Falls off late-game" is not the same as "Strong early game, weak late game."
and this argument "vs good players this doesnt work" is a silver player saying vs good players HE COULDNT pull it off. in a realistic scenario, good players usually play vs other good players so that equalizes and the only thing that remains is if it is physically possible for lee sin to reach a target and kick it. and yes, it is absolutely physically possible to do it from the design of his kit and to prevent it, resources must be used on him either to cc him or to kill him. this means he is infact a threat and even tho the threat is not purely damage, it sometimes is much greater a threat than damage.
Correction; this is a basically unranked player who has done his research from the ground up saying that Lee Sin's power is relative to his knowledge and mechanics vs. his opponents' knowledge and mechanics. Across. The. Board.
Yes, ideally, matchmaking puts players of equal skill against each other, but what quantifies "equal skill" in League of Legends is only a machine's mathematical approximation.
I already pointed out that Lee Sin can still kick someone into his team. There weren't any asterisks attached to that statement.
PS: about the rank thing - it is theoretically possible to know things about the game as a low elo player that a higher elo player doesnt know, especially if the higher elo player is a yasuo main, but generally speaking, league of legends doesnt use mechanical skills. its 99% knowledge and experience and only 1% mechanics. faker doesnt actually have insane mechanics (they are super high class elite, thats for sure, but he isnt the only one or better than every other pro at this), but he simply knows his shit much better. he simply knows the damage he can deal and take very well and he knows the in-fight options of players very well. its knowledge and experience that makes good players seem good, not their ability to press 3 buttons in fast succession. everyone can do that.
in league, a general concept is "if you know it, you can do it" but knowing needs alot of experience. for example, i played alot of warcraft 3 tft and i was very good at it. in warcraft, you needed alot more mechanics than in league and also alot more strategic knowledge but since the game was so much more complex and involved many more units and factors than league, you didnt have to know the specifics to be a good player.
this means, you could actually have a session with a player where you teach him everything you know in theory and then let him play and he will be able to apply a certain amount of things you taught him just from telling him. in league tho, it is possible to only teach very basic concepts in theory alone and most things must be learned from practicing because of how much more this game relies on experience. you either know from experience that you can win this duel with 20 hp left or you dont know it. no matter how many lessons you learned, you will not do the math before dueling so you simply have to experience it plus you gotta have a good feeling for it.
this leads to the conclusion that purely theoretical experience, even though valuable in some areas, is very unreliable in league of legends in general. especially when talking about champion power and balance. a player with many more games than another player generally should have more experience, regardless of rank. but a player who played, say, 1000 games in diamond is inclined to know more about the same thing than a player who played 1000 games in silver. this is due to the circumstances in which either player made their experiences. the diamond player simply had a much harsher environment in which mistakes are punished more precisely and more commonly. this means, higher level experience is closer to facts than lower level experience.
for example: champ X against champ Y matchup in toplane. who wins? you say champ X because mobafire said so. i say champ Y because i main champ Y and i played 300 games against champ X and i know the limits of champ X because i played against people who were able to use champ X to its limit. even if you played the same amount of games in this matchup, chances are your opponents didnt use as much power of champ X as my opponents and you didnt use as much power of champ Y as me because if you did, you'd be in diamond too.
does that make sense to you? if a challenger player, who is CURRENTLY CHALLENGER (not these people who had 5 accounts in top 10 challenger but are now plat 2) comes to me and explains me some things about jungling, i will surely listen and be thankful to get the chance to improve myself. even tho they are not neccessarily better at everything, they will have with 100% certainy at least one area of knowledge where they surpass me and i can learn from it.
In many cases, yes, it's true that a higher-rank player can teach a lower-rank player.
Right now, every point you have made;
...is something I've either stated in this thread or learned years ago.
Sure, you don't have to take my word for it, not like you're really considering anything I say in the first place before just deciding I need teaching and you're the right "adult" for the job.
[snipped]
The post was getting too long. Anyway, regarding "my Gold boss," the concept of every piece of information being crucial to success, scenarios having too many variables to be over-generalized...
I have not once said anything about "deserving" a higher rank. All I've stated is that I haven't been playing the game for rank, and that is why the ranking I have is low.
Yes, information is all-important, and all of the information is important. As dumb as that sentence may sound, it's the core truth of this game, and even life itself. You can't go into a situation without knowing what's going on and expect to come out on top of things.
Yes, scenarios can have many variables that change the whole dynamic of the situation. They took Cleanse instead of Ignite. They invaded the jungle instead of starting on their side. They swapped mid- and top-lane, changing the match-up entirely. It can even come down to something as small as a specific champ walking at a different angle than you expected. This means that a scenario theory needs to be vague, in order to handle multiple contingencies. And it obviously won't be perfect, because the variables present allow for vastly different scenarios.
its funny how low elo players always get so offended when you call them out on their elo. its like you might even be right, but it doesnt matter anymore because all you do is throw around insults and complaints. i enjoy it.
If anything, I'm only offended that you use my rank as a means to patronize me, disregard what I say, and pretend you're "teaching" me things that I don't already know.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesill try to keep it shorter this time:
"falls off lategame" means "is less useful lategame than before that", which simply doesnt apply to lee sin. "falls off" is a term used when talking about curves and as long as his power curve does not go down with time passing in the game, i dont understand where you can imply that it falls off.
from what i see, people use the term "falls off lategame" equivalent to "does not scale as good". as i said, elise falls off lategame because her impact is lower in the lategame than in the earlygame while lee sin always stays the same (or even increases) due to his kick. this is what i understand when i say "falls off".
i dont mean to "teach" you anything. its more like this is a forum and we just post whatever we think about a certain topic and if someone saith something that we deem wrong or right or augmentable, we give our opinion. i dont mean to teach you personally, else i'd offer you coaching and let myself get paid for it, but simply give a diamond players insight on the game.
from my own experience i can say, rank matters alot when it comes to game knowledge. if you dont think so, you can simply value this argument lower. for example, when i say "champ X is pretty weak" and someone saith "but palyer Y is high challenger with it so it cant be that weak" then that definitely is evidence but i value it so low that i can leave it out of any calculation. if you value rank-evidence low, you can just do that for yourself and let others value it high.
that being said, im not talking at you for being low/unranked, im just reminding everyone that everything you say is from a certain perspective and everything i say is from another perspective not only influenced by us being different people but also by our ranks. again, if you think that argument has no value, simply dont consider it. what im saying is not based on my rank and i dont use my rank as an argument, i simply back it up with my rank. from my own opinion, this backup is relatively strong but if it isnt from yours, thats fine too.
i remember there was a discussion about pantheon jungle on the thread and as one of the highest ranked pantheon players on EUW (even higher before) i gave my opinion on that topic. then a discussion broke out about how meaningless my rank and my thousand pantheon games are and that all the silver players who "main" pantheon for 30 games have an equally valuable opinion.
you see, you can make of it what ever you want.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ulwxqm9H,comment-id=000000010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-06T13:14:41.641+0000)
- "falls off lategame" means "is less useful lategame than before that", which simply doesnt apply to lee sin. "falls off" is a term used when talking about curves and as long as his power curve does not go down with time passing in the game, i dont understand where you can imply that it falls off.
Using that definition, there literally is no champion that "falls off" late-game, because there is no champion that gets worse late-game than early-game.
When a champion's power falls off late-game, it doesn't mean their power curve goes on a decline; it means that it doesn't keep going up as fast. An example would be Yasuo, whose damage output spikes up quickly between 5-30 minutes, but slows down after that point both in relation to his own power scaling and in relation to other melee carries. His power isn't going down, but it's not going up as fast as it was earlier.
2) from what i see, people use the term "falls off lategame" equivalent to "does not scale as good". as i said, elise falls off lategame because her impact is lower in the lategame than in the earlygame while lee sin always stays the same (or even increases) due to his kick. this is what i understand when i say "falls off".
The funny thing is that Lee Sin has a similar situation to Elise. Not nearly as pronounced, thanks to his ultimate, but his kit pretty heavily relies on being able to deal DPS. However, he can't buy enough of both damage and defense in order to keep up his DPS in the middle of a fight, and his only defensive tool is his W, which is far more often used to engage/escape than purely for defense.
You can keep disregarding that opinion, but I want you to consider something very important. When does Lee Sin become popular?
Think about this for a moment. Lee Sin only jumps to the top of popularity when the average match is less than 35 minutes. It's also interesting to note that the average gold gained in a 30-minute match is 11k, which is enough to buy 2-3 completed items, depending on how much you invest in boots. So when the end-game is during his mid-game, Lee Sin becomes much more popular. Why is that?
3) i dont mean to "teach" you anything. its more like this is a forum and we just post whatever we think about a certain topic and if someone saith something that we deem wrong or right or augmentable, we give our opinion. i dont mean to teach you personally, else i'd offer you coaching and let myself get paid for it, but simply give a diamond players insight on the game.
You've definitely phrased it as if you're trying to teach. Unless English isn't your first language, you'd have to be a special kind of person to not realize why I drew that conclusion.
4) from my own experience i can say, rank matters alot when it comes to game knowledge. if you dont think so, you can simply value this argument lower. for example, when i say "champ X is pretty weak" and someone saith "but player Y is high challenger with it so it cant be that weak" then that definitely is evidence but i value it so low that i can leave it out of any calculation. if you value rank-evidence low, you can just do that for yourself and let others value it high.
that being said, im not talking at you for being low/unranked, im just reminding everyone that everything you say is from a certain perspective and everything i say is from another perspective not only influenced by us being different people but also by our ranks. again, if you think that argument has no value, simply dont consider it. what im saying is not based on my rank and i dont use my rank as an argument, i simply back it up with my rank. from my own opinion, this backup is relatively strong but if it isnt from yours, thats fine too.
In the years that I've been around this game, I've seen pretty much every possible combination of rank and player intelligence. Only thing I haven't seen is Master rank players on the forums, and they're either too busy smurfing for fun or playing high-level matches to bother with the forums.
This leads me to one truth: you cannot base someone's understanding of the game on rank. Their rank will, at best, accurately note their experience and ability to apply game knowledge, as well as their teamwork skills beyond Silver.
Rank does not usually matter in a discussion. What matters is the player knowing the subject well enough to base their opinions/arguments on facts, and being able to trade debate points. If someone is high rank and knowledgeable on the subject, it definitely solidifies my respect for their opinions, but it's not a requirement for me to consider it valid.
Also, when it conflicts what other players of similar rank have said, I tend to see it as one man's opinion against the rest. They could be right, but more players are saying they're wrong for reasons X, Y and Zed, and none of their counter-points are dispelling the facts laid out.
i remember there was a discussion about pantheon jungle on the thread and as one of the highest ranked pantheon players on EUW (even higher before) i gave my opinion on that topic. then a discussion broke out about how meaningless my rank and my thousand pantheon games are and that all the silver players who "main" pantheon for 30 games have an equally valuable opinion.
you see, you can make of it what ever you want.
I don't recall that thread, but then again, it could have been not on the NA forum or drowned out by other topics. Or possibly something I skimmed past, as it may have happened before I was really into jungling.
In any event, the discussion subject would be more important than the ranking of those in the discussion, but it's true that your extensive experience would lend your words far more weight than the average player. Again, I regard individual intelligence over the game's mechanical approximation of a player's skill, but this is a case where, logically and statistically, that information actually grants leverage.
Ranking may not be necessary to validate game knowledge, but it verifies experience. Chances are that I'd probably agree with you on the Pantheon discussion. Main reason why we're even disagreeing on Lee Sin is because what you say is going against so many other facts and opinions.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteswell, we are kinda agreeing on many things here.
tho if i recall correctly, it was mainly about lee sin and the term "falls off", right?
so you are saying no champion "falls off" from how i understand that phrase because no champion loses power? well not exactly. no champion becomes a weaker version of himself but many champions lose impact over the course of the game. the best example really is elise because not only drops the power-growth of her kit so drastically past 6 that her impact simply FALLS OFF but her abilities are also designed in a way that it is very hard to itemize to properly use them past, i say, the jungle item.
also, every single one of her abilities is designed to be low-impact and only the combination makes her strong. this means, later on in the game she has no abilitiy to singlehandedly impact a fight except her stun which can only reliably used to peel. her impact on the fights/game is very low right now.
lee sin ofcourse suffers from the same things and you are absolutely right about his abilities and his buildpath BUT the ultimate becomes more and more impactful the longer the game goes (respawn timers, health items on frontliners etc) and keeps his power curve stable. he doesnt fall off as his impact doesnt decrease. he simply stays as impactful as ever or even grows slightly.
there are many champions who fall off lategame but its true, with the short gametimes we have right now that applies to less champions than before.
also the second thing you say is that lee sin is popular with short gametimes. that is correlating for sure but i felt like its much more the other way around. when season 6 came around i tested almost all junglers extensively (because im a jungler, makes sense) and i found that three champions in particular have a very sick early power and, due to the new season, are way more impactful than before. these three are lee sin, kindred and rexai.
the new jungle does a few things for junglers.
it gives more experience the more you fall behind, so the less you farm, the faster you catch up which basically frees up time you can "fuck around" and still get back, which benefits junglers who like to spend their time ganking and fucking around.
it gives less gold so the junglers looking to farm up in the jungle dont benefit from that as much anymore and junglers who reliably get their gold outside of the jungle just have way less downsides from not farming as much.
jungle items are more expensive and give a different form of sustain which guts all champions having a hard time in jungle anyways. now its mostly due to having much less mana sustain and no masteries (except the neglible 5 on hit dmg) that actually help jungling. this means all junglers who naturally jungle and sustain nicely get buffed indirectly even more
yeah there is a fourth point even. so many buffs for these junglers. from the new masteries, fighting in lanes and trading has been buffed and is encouraged MUCH more than last season, so laners fight and trade way more frequently which makes ganking much easier and increases the success rate of ganks drastically so champions who have strong early ganks and can gank frequently due to no/low resource cost/cooldowns have an advantage here too.
the change in tower-survivability surely gives opportunity to make games last shorter but the champions who take that opportunity decide the duration of the game and the champions who take it most are lee sin, kindred and rexai.
oh and by the way, last point: i dont believe in "being able to apply" mechanical skill/knowledge exists in league. that is exactly what i was getting at when i made the comparison to warcraft 3. in wc3 you could understand the game really deeply from theory alone but you lacked the mechanical skill to apply it because it was just so mechanics-heavy. league of legends tho requires basically no mechanics but only anticipation and experience. that means, if you HAVE the experience and if you HAVE the !KNOWLEDGE! (many people say "i know" and they really think they do but they actually dont. knowledge is a trap) then you CAN apply it even if you have only two fingers per hand. there is literally no mechanical excuse in league of legends.
if you have it in your brain, you have it in the game. thats just how league of legends is designed. there is no mechanical boundary and lee sin and yasuo have no higher skill-floor and skill-ceiling or skill-my ass because they rely on pressing buttons a bit faster.
ofcourse there is no way this can be proven and the only evidence for it is progamer APM but here you can just take my word for it.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI was only saying that, by your given definition, a champion's scaling does not fall off.
On the last point, you're comparing an RTS to a MOBA. Let me repeat that. You are comparing an RTS to a MOBA. While the two games control similarly, there are functional differences that separate them in levels of mechanical skill.
Yes, an RTS has significantly more mechanical skill required. This does not mean that a MOBA lacks mechanical skill, but rather that the mechanics barrier is significantly lower in comparison.
That's like saying the rhythm genre of games has a lower mechanical barrier than the fighting genre. **Of course it does, because there's a functional difference in the game types. That doesn't mean that one requires no mechanical skill. It means that one type takes less work than the other to learn. This means that, if you're used to the skill required to play one game, you're going to experience a huge discrepancy in the skill requirement when changing to the other genre of games.
That doesn't mean League requires no mechanics to play. It means it requires less mechanics.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesyes we agree on that falling off thing and i say lee sins ultimate is so impactful that even tho his other 6 abilities fall off, he as a champion doesnt, even tho its ONLY because of his ultimate and Q/W's good synergy with it.
i think if you ban all earlygame junglers, games will start to last significantly longer again. in this season these champions have the tools to make games last very short on average.
you can literally compare everything if you make a solid point. i said in wc3 you can apply theoretical knowledge practically because it is very clear and simple knowledge and the only boundary is mechanical ability. in league of legends tho, experience is like such a big part of "knowledge" that everything you learn "in theory" has extremely lowered value and the mechanical skill boundary is so low that it can never stop you from applying your knowledge.
like sure if i just play anivia for the first time i might not be able to apply everything i know about the game but by the third game the "mechanical boundary" is simply not an excuse anymore. i either apply my knowledge or i dont, there is no "because im not good at doing so" its an excuse.
you get my point? maybe im just very bad at explaining this but lets take chess as an example. in chess, if you KNOW your shit then there is literally no mechanical boundary for you. you pick up the piece and move it and as long as you have hands or feet or a mouth you will be somewhat able to play chess. leagues mechanical boundary is very similar to the one of chess. there is no super fast button combination you need to press to get your combo off like in a fighting game. there is no super high apm and micromanagement required like in an RTS. there is no super mega hyper precise aim required like in an FPS.
all you need to do is when to do what exactly. insec-kicks with lee sin have no mechanical boundary. all you need to do is press buttons and only two of them have to be pressed really fast which is the kick and the flash and thats absolutely possible for everyone who tried it three times. the skill behind this is knowing HOW to do it and WHEN to do it. there is so many things you have to keep in mind. enemy abilities, enemy cooldowns, enemy mobility, the two teams positioning, your ability to even get into position at a certain point, your teams ability to follow up, your teams damage etc etc.
all this plays into performing a good insec kick. all this can not be taught in theory, it can only be learned from experience. you need to develop a feeling for it or else you will not be able to do it regardless of how many guides you read about it and regardless of how fast you can press buttons, but once you HAVE the experience, you can do it even if your mechanical skill is the one YOU have right now.
man ive seen a physically disabled guy play league of legends with his mouth and a pen because he had like no hands or so and he could play very solid, mechanically. like he could flash combo with alistar and shit. if he can do that, there is literally no excuse for genetically lucky people.
and all of this kinda concludes in the rank discussion because my belief is that if you have the knowledge you can apply it and if someone saith "im simply not good at applying the knowldge but i have it" then he can keep telling himself that but i will still believe that what he thinks is knowledge is probably just some phrases he heared in an LCS cast.
you see, lee sin falling off or not and being able to insec kick, thats like such an unimportant worthless knowldge for being good at the game. knowing your champion, knowing your matchups, understanding waveplay, mapcontrol and pressure. that is what makes you good at the game and none of these have boundaries to be applied. you either know it or you dont and even tho all of them can be taught in theory, this only supplements your personal experience but doesnt replace it, cant replace it. (WHILE IN AN RTS GAME, IT CAN REPLACE IT TO AN EXTENT! thats why the comparison)
ah shit man you make me write way too much here.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ulwxqm9H,comment-id=0000000100010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T08:59:37.647+0000)
man ive seen a physically disabled guy play league of legends with his mouth and a pen because he had like no hands or so and he could play very solid, mechanically. like he could flash combo with alistar and shit. if he can do that, there is literally no excuse for genetically lucky people.
and all of this kinda concludes in the rank discussion because my belief is that if you have the knowledge you can apply it and if someone saith "im simply not good at applying the knowldge but i have it" then he can keep telling himself that but i will still believe that what he thinks is knowledge is probably just some phrases he heared in an LCS cast.
That's pretty impressive, the disabled League player. I actually personally know a couple of disabled people who play League; one is a pretty long-time support main friend of mine, and the other just recently started learning. Bit of a tangent, but I see the point made with it.
The only thing I'm going to say, in the end, is that I'm not a case of "can't apply my understanding of the game," but "I haven't bothered to apply myself."
I've been playing League for longer than your account, and yet I have a fraction of Ranked matches combined compared to the number you've played in each individual season.
The whole reason I have low to no ranking isn't because "others are messing up my win rate" or "I know this stuff but I'm not applying it right" or any other average bullshit excuse you're used to hearing (I've seen them all, too). No, it's simply the fact that I haven't really tried.
I didn't even bother with Ranked for two seasons, because I had terrible internet for a few years, and I literally only did my promos this season because my friend wanted me to do it.
There's nothing else to say, barring getting into a pointless argument over personal opinions. You turned out to be much more rational than I was expecting. I'm sorry for being an insulting prick. Have a nice day.
