Being able to play anything botlane is not a problem

Kairoptra·Jun 30, 2018·42 votes·13,445 views

Damage creep is a problem.

Mobility creep is a problem.

CC creep is a problem.

Flawed champion design is a problem.

Marksman weakness is a problem.

Weak defenses is a problem.

Low tower strength is a problem.

The strength/weakness of certain runes is a problem.

The strength/weakness of certain items is a problem.

If none of these things were an issue, botlane diversity would be great for the game, as it would cater to more play styles, and thus entice more players. The issue is not being allowed to play something that isn’t an ADC in the botlane, but rather the overarching issues surrounding it.

30 Comments

TheSingularityJul 1, 201814 votes

~~CC ~~Displacement creep is a problem.

Fixed it

GigglesOJul 1, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Damage creep is a problem.

Mobility creep is a problem.

I really hate these two, it makes anything else almost unplayable right now.

I just get nuked without being able to even hit them.

SwiftKitten88Jun 30, 20187 votes

i agree with everything except "marksman weakness" marksmen as a class arn't bad (their just no longer completely broken as a class)... and crit isnt bad either.. it just takes longer to come online

rtbf221651412Jul 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

it just takes longer to come online

That is the problem though.

You think they can 'come online' in a short game?

ChaddyFantomeJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That is the problem though.

You think they can 'come online' in a short game?

then the problem is that they made the game too short, not that they are weak.

rtbf221651412Jul 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

then the problem is that they made the game too short, not that they are weak.

We can also argue their base stats should be increased and late game nerfed. Both get the results you want.

ChaddyFantomeJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We can also argue their base stats should be increased and late game nerfed. Both get the results you want.

All that would do is get us back to where we were where before the change.

For ADCs to be balanced, they need to be later scaling champs. To justify ADcs in this game, we need games o stop ending at 20 minutes.

rtbf221651412Jul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

All that would do is get us back to where we were where before the change.

What game have you been playing? Like how the hell does this make any sense?

NekoniClawsJul 1, 20186 votes

Yes it is a problem... playing anything botlane should fulfil 1 of 2 criteria.

Have 2 champions with as much synergy as the enemy lane, or counter the enemy lane so effectively the lane is at least a skill match up.

You see supports and marksmen have synergy BY DEFAULT, it's a kiting-peel synergy. (you can mis-match your marksman and support, but I digress)

I don't want to see Veigar-Teemo botlanes just flat out beating Caitlyn-Morgana in a full game just because Caitlyn can't reasonably scale within the timespan of a game, or can't find a way to survive to scale. To hammer this point home- Caitlyn and Morgana HARD counter Veigar-Teemo and SHOULD EASILY WIN even laning phase. They're super safe, they can catch Teemo out, and they allow the kiting-peel dynamic.

I won't disagree with the other problems you've listed, of course. But 'anything' bot shouldn't just work.

Instalok RivenJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes it is a problem... playing anything botlane should fulfil 1 of 2 criteria.

Have 2 champions with as much synergy as the enemy lane, or counter the enemy lane so effectively the lane is at least a skill match up.

You see supports and marksmen have synergy BY DEFAULT, it's a kiting-peel synergy. (you can mis-match your marksman and support, but I digress)

I don't want to see Veigar-Teemo botlanes just flat out beating Caitlyn-Morgana in a full game just because Caitlyn can't reasonably scale within the timespan of a game, or can't find a way to survive to scale. To hammer this point home- Caitlyn and Morgana HARD counter Veigar-Teemo and SHOULD EASILY WIN even laning phase. They're super safe, they can catch Teemo out, and they allow the kiting-peel dynamic.

I won't disagree with the other problems you've listed, of course. But 'anything' bot shouldn't just work.

I agree with you more than i'm willing to admit.[sg-lulu]

KairoptraJul 1, 20181 votes

Once again, the problem is not so much that you are able to play any combination of champions bot, but rather that it is the problem surrounding it. Caitlyn's inability to scale or survive to scale are the problems in this case. If Caitlyn is unable to scale well enough, then that's a problem with either her numbers or the items/runes she standardly takes. If she cannot survive, then that is either due to the weaknesses I previously stated, those lying with Morgana, or the strength of Teemo & Veigar, whether it be due to their numbers, items, runes, or any flaws in their design. You should be able to take Teemo and Veigar bot, but if they are steam-rolling a Caitlyn and Morgana, that is a problem with those champions in particular. There should be draw-backs, as Teemo-Veigar is more damage-oriented than Caitlyn-Morgana (which is more of a balance between defense and offense), but an ideal game would rely on the skill of the player, thus meaning that either combination should statistically have an equal chance of winning.

ChaddyFantomeJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Once again, the problem is not so much that you are able to play any combination of champions bot, but rather that it is the problem surrounding it. Caitlyn's inability to scale or survive to scale are the problems in this case. If Caitlyn is unable to scale well enough, then that's a problem with either her numbers or the items/runes she standardly takes. If she cannot survive, then that is either due to the weaknesses I previously stated, those lying with Morgana, or the strength of Teemo & Veigar, whether it be due to their numbers, items, runes, or any flaws in their design. You should be able to take Teemo and Veigar bot, but if they are steam-rolling a Caitlyn and Morgana, that is a problem with those champions in particular. There should be draw-backs, as Teemo-Veigar is more damage-oriented than Caitlyn-Morgana (which is more of a balance between defense and offense), but an ideal game would rely on the skill of the player, thus meaning that either combination should statistically have an equal chance of winning.

what its a problem of is the length of the game being too short for her to scale.

KairoptraJul 2, 20182 votes

Thanks for the assist; don't know how that hadn't crossed my mind ^-^"

NekoniClawsJul 2, 20181 votes

That's why I said I can't disagree, I don't think we can really seperate the problems 'surrounding' adcs and those with adcs entirely, if they're unsuited for the meta that can simply be fixed by numbers / gamelength / deleting conqueror- a whole rail of things. There's a huge number of compounding factors that nerfed them to a reasonable level, and then Riot released a numbers and items nerf specifically targetting them too- presumably because it was scheduled three or four months ago. Fixing either of the issues would fix things, but given Riot wants short stomp-fests, it'll probaly have to be adc numbers.

I used Cait and Morgana vs Teemo and Veigar because, Veigar and Teemo have literally no tools to outplay Cait and Morg, it's not just damage but a flat counter. Cait doesn't have to extend to Teemo or Veigar's range, if she does Morg has a spellshield to cancel out the damage / CC effects. Cait and Morg also have abilities that can catch an invisible teemo out easily.- Cait and Morg SHOULD stomp that lane because of their kit effects, and then their team also has the benefit of not having an underfed Teemo. If they had a 50% chance of winning when literally drafting themselves into a pit- that's just wrong.

3TWarriorJul 2, 20181 votes

how do the teemo/veigar lane work if they are completely hard-countered? did this actually happen?

NekoniClawsJul 2, 20182 votes

No it's just an example that 'anything' can literally be something that shouldn't work.

3TWarriorJul 2, 20181 votes

well, I figure if they switch to attack speed and on-hit effects along with some defensive items, they would still carry as an AD

problem is though, it's hard to make builds from scratch

item 3085 item 3091 item 3155 and not sure what else

koshkyraJul 1, 20185 votes

CC creep isnt even a thing, its the knockup and displacement creep that's a problem

KairoptraJul 1, 20181 votes

Is that not CC?

Bob the ToastrJul 2, 20181 votes

It is CC but the reason people are focusing more on the fact it's displacements is because they can't be reduced by tenacity when other CC can. It makes merc treads and legends: tenacity and elixir of iron useless.

Tahminatrix Jul 1, 20183 votes

Marksmen weakness is mostly marksmen predictability, if marksmen got stronger base damage on their abilities early game while their auto attacks outscaled that damage as the game went on then they would be fine.

If marksmen had abilities to actually throw out that made them comparable to a slightly weaker mage with physical damage then they would be in a good spot

In fact they would already be slightly weaker than mages if their abilities did similar base damage because armor is much easier to pick up than magic resist which would easily make up for the auto attacks also benefiting from ad aswell.

(technically this is contributing to damage creep but not so much in the fact that this would only aim to effect laning phase and be nonexistent later on)

YourAreMyQueenJul 1, 20183 votes

I personally love getting one shot under tower from a 0/0/0 45 cs lvl 6 zed in under .2 seconds while he's exhausted! /s

When Riot decided to hire the cancer that is Ghostcrawler literally everyone who knew who he was from his time ruining both AoE and WoW knew what was coming and literally no one was wrong.

Familiar FacesJul 1, 20182 votes

Marksman main here..., I agree. I've tried my hand at other champ arechetype in bot but still but the mobility creep especially is aids. Inspite of that I actually think Marksmen are in a balanced spot right now. We were never intended to hard spike at one item. It was always intended that our itemisation scaled our damage multiplicatively from low DPS to insane DPS as we jacked on more items. And our ranged nature allows us to risk going more glass cannon than other classes provided we compensate via our kiting and positioning.

Leave the extreme one or double item power spikes for "inherently riskier" melees but ffs, some melees have three times the target accessibility potential as marksmen. Brute-force that with invulnerability or reduced vulnerability windows and Marksman become too out classed. IMO mobility creep is the biggest issue here since melees being allowed windows off invulnerability or reduced vulnerability kinda permits skill expression as suitable compensation. Irelia, Yasuo and Yi especially feel too brute forced. Awaiting nerfs on them specifically. Possibly Rengar too but I'm yet to see that in bot (nor have i yet seen bot yi, the funnel strat is much preferred by Yi or straight jungling)

BrightWîngsJun 30, 20181 votes

I hope no one is saying this I don't mind it at all. All are welcome to me my issue is that everyone gets to play their champs bot lane and I can't even play the ones I've been playing.

Agree with legit everything you listed

Digital DaddyJul 1, 20181 votes

you forgot minion aggro**

NhifuJul 1, 20181 votes

So everything is a problem? :P

DubshokaJul 1, 20181 votes

Problem is people playing anything botlane without considering the reason why. Just saying "new meta" and picking some random nonsense doesn't make it so.

LegitBusinessmanJul 2, 20181 votes

I've been saying since midseason happened this would be the best meta either if it wasn't for these monstrously glaring issues that are instead just making it a fiesta.

Mokiller5Jul 2, 20181 votes

I agree with your points, Its the way rioto is trying to enforce diversity which bothers me. League unlike Dota2 cannot have champions that do more than one roles at any given time, for fear of said champion becoming broken and op in a role they were never meant to fill.

The best ROLE diversity we ever had was back in season 5 Around the MSI Patch, before the juggernaut rework. The following is an example:

Tanks (Malphite, Sion) = should be damage sponges and take a fair bit of time to kill, HOWEVER they SHOULD** NOT **BE DAMAGE DEALERS and should tickle, countered by sustained dps of marksmen and melee hyper carries.

Marksmen (Caitlyn, Vayne) = should be high damage dealers but incredibly squishy to kill by almost any class except tanks, and the only class that can siege turrets effectively lategame.

**Assassins **(Zed, Talon) = should be able to close distance and delete marksmen but be incredibly squishy themselves and be killed by anything other than marksmen

Mages (Malzahar, Syndra, Victor) = Jack of all trades class master of none, great for wave clear, team fights and pushing. Weakness late game.

**Bruisers **(Wukong, Riven, J4) = ad version of mages, Jack of all trades class master of none, great for wave clear, team fights and pushing. Weakness late game.

**Melee hyper carries **(Yi, Tryndamere) = Absolute highest damage in game, but susceptible to mage/tank/support Crowd Control.

Supports = Team dependent enchanter (buffs/debuffs), weakness relies on teams ability to perform and take objectives.

LordGeovanniJul 2, 20181 votes

Marksman weakness is a problem.... that doesnt exist in this game at least. what the problem is. is that mages and assassins have more damage and lower cc than the last time adcs were gated by gold cost (their effectiveness didnt go down just that their crit build path got more expensive) and they only got those to keep up with rising adc power because everyone on boards crying about tank strength because they believe for you to be good against something you have to instagib it.