Boards›Gameplay

Some things should be stated as opinions or as personal experiences, rather than as facts

Kairoptra··50 votes·12,817 views

The current quality of the game is one of these things.

Before I start, I should say that nobody’s denying that the game has problems. Certain things such as statistics are indisputable facts.

That said, the game isn’t trash because you said so. If you think the game is awful, say “I think the game is trash” or “I feel like the balance team is doing a crappy job” or something along those lines. That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. However, don’t act for a second that every intelligent person on the Boards thinks the same. If a person is defending Riot, they most likely have good reasons that you can understand and sympathize with.

Of course, the opposite is true as well; you can’t just say “Riot is doing an amazing job” or “this game is fantastic”. Their are legitimate reasons why the prevailing opinions of the current state of the game are negative. You can’t just go knocking them in your crusade to defend Riot.

Everybody has a different standard of quality that they hold Riot to. There are facts out there, but they may suggest one thing to you and something different to another person. If you feel like everything’s good or everything’s bad, that’s fine, that’s you, that’s your opinion. However, it’s presumptuous, rude, and overall insulting to act like your opinion is fact and anyone who says otherwise is denying the truth.

40 Comments

JustaNewb19 votes

Most of the "facts" posted here are actually feelings, once taken apart. Even stats, as some of the most brutally over powered champions enjoy very low pick rates (and win rates, as those are calculated across all tiers) until the next season when some streamer picks them... which means that most champion stats are actually simply feelings.

The problem isn't when people state opinion as fact. The largest problem on the boards is when someone uses hyperbole or exaggeration, with absolutely no indicators that they are attempting to express fact (and often even say it is exaggeration), and other people grab onto that small aspect of their post and only wish to talk about it.

The sheer amount of anal retention, mixed with failures of reading comprehension, make the boards an occasionally toxic place.

Spank the Fox12 votes

{quoted}

Most of the "facts" posted here are actually feelings, once taken apart. Even stats, as some of the most brutally over powered champions enjoy very low pick rates (and win rates, as those are calculated across all tiers) until the next season when some streamer picks them.

The problem isn't when people state opinion as fact. The largest problem on the boards is when someone uses hyperbole or exaggeration, with absolutely no indicators that they are attempting to express fact (and often even say it is exaggeration), and other people grab onto that small aspect of their post and only wish to talk about it.

The sheer amount of anal retention, mixed with failures of reading comprehension, make the boards an occasionally toxic place.

> occasionally toxic

Understatement of the year

Eedat3 votes

Honestly "hyperbole" shouldn't be allowed on this board. People do not understand the difference between "hyperbole" and "straight up dishonesty". Then they use hyperbole as an excuse when in reality they were trying to tell a bold faced lie. This board has demonstrated it is not responsible enough to handle a basic concept like hyperbole without abusing it.

The other thing that really irks me is that everything is massively sensationalized. I'm not sure if I'm watching Fox or NBC or if I'm on the LoL boards half the time

JustaNewb1 votes

The problem is that many times people actually are using hyperbole, the point lying elsewhere in the post, and yes... you made my point for me beautifully... "These people are too stupid to use things correctly, they are just all liars." is basically what that just read.

Big Lincoln9 votes

that's not how you argue a point

"I think" "I feel" etc soften the point and make you seem indecisive

The Sword Saint11 votes

If everyone just uses rhetoric like you're suggesting then there is not point in discussing anything since everyone would already be too committed to their own ideas and statements to change them for someone else.

You should use words like think and feel for anything that is not a solid verifiable fact. Trying to insist that things which are subjective are objective is just outright lying for the sake of maybe tricking some uninformed people into believing your statements.

CytheGuy3 votes

Ask anyone who has taught argumentative essays and they will tell you that using "I think" will weaken your argument. Hell, almost all good arguments are about opinionated things. Instead of using "I think" or "I feel" it is more effective to acknowledge the other side of your argument, but then because it is still an argument you should tell why their opinions are wrong.

The Sword Saint3 votes

That's because an argumentative paper has the main goal of being persuasive, not the main goal of achieving 100% understanding of the unbiased, unfiltered facts without framing them in a context that hints at a certain interpretation.

CytheGuy1 votes

And the goal of the worthwhile Gameplay posts are to convince, or persuade, Riot to believe that X is OP, or that Y is toxic to play as/against, or that Z is poorly designed from a gameplay standpoint.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Here you’ll find all sorts of discussions related to playing League of Legends. From discussions about your personal strategies, to speculation about the next champion or patch, if it’s about playing the game, it goes here.

Fact: This sub board isn't just a place for players to whine about imbalance, and in any event Riot has access to tons of stats that they use to determine that sort of thing.

Opinion: I doubt that Riot spends any real time or effort reading gameplay posts that just whine about op champs, it's more like them in my experience to engage and respond with posts that describe a players experience with the game and ask clarifying questions such as 'what is it about xyz champion that you enjoy or dislike' because that sort of information can be useful when considering future design decisions and reworks. I would find it odd if the gameplay team who handles balance messes with numbers based on the amount of shitposts on gameplay rather than fiddling with their statistics models and mathematical power curves.

CytheGuy1 votes

gameplay posts that just whine about op champs

Well the posts that just whine aren't the worthwhile posts then, are they?

posts that describe a players experience with the game and ask clarifying questions such as 'what is it about xyz champion that you enjoy or dislike'

So... any well worded post. I could write a post about the imbalances of a champion and make it sound like this.

that sort of information can be useful when considering future design decisions and reworks

So when are we allowed to make a post that attempts to address immediate balance issues?

I would find it odd if the gameplay team who handles balance messes with numbers based on the amount of shitposts on gameplay rather than fiddling with their statistics models and mathematical power curves.

I'd like to believe that Gameplay isn't all just shitposts. I've found some very well-written posts that tried to omit bias and present data that suggests that what they say is true.

Hibeki5 votes

But its not usually open for debate, this game has objectively gone downhill over the past few years. The number of people open to playing games has steadily increased while the number of viewers of league and players of league has completely stagnated if not decreased.

Riot has completely given up on balancing for the public servers and will balance for only LCS. This is fact, don't even attempt to argue it.

They continue to push shit off the testing servers saying its something its not, and what a surprise, the stuff we thought would be problems end up being problems every single time.

I think that it should be used as opinions to a point, but when a champion boasts a 90% banrate and a 55% winrate I think its safe to say them being broken isn't opinion anymore.

The Sword Saint3 votes

{quoted}

But its not usually open for debate, this game has objectively gone downhill over the past few years. The number of people open to playing games has steadily increased while the number of viewers of league and players of league has completely stagnated if not decreased.

Subjective, I enjoy League every season more than the last.

Riot has completely given up on balancing for the public servers and will balance for only LCS. This is fact, don't even attempt to argue it.

Not true. This barely requires a counterargument at all, but just for example that they buff things like garen who will never see lcs play should be enough to demonstrate that they don't just balance for LCS.

They continue to push shit off the testing servers saying its something its not, and what a surprise, the stuff we thought would be problems end up being problems every single time.

Inaccurate, public opinions of pbe balance are hit and miss at best. Public opinion is what got stuff like rework skarner way over buffed on pbe and forced us to suffer through that for a few patches until it got nerfed.

I think that it should be used as opinions to a point, but when a champion boasts a 90% banrate and a 55% winrate I think its safe to say them being broken isn't opinion anymore.

Also subjective and/or lacking definitive evidence. For arguments sake, there could be a champion that kills every other champion in the game in one auto attack but isn't allowed to to auto attack if anyone on the enemy team has a specific rune page setup. If 45% of the time that this champion gets played someone on the enemy team remembers to use the rune page then the champ would win 55% of it's games and lose the rest because of the nature of its kit. It would likely be banned 90% of the time because players don't want to use the shitty random rune page they have to use to not lose to the champ and don't trust their teamates to bite the bullet and take it either. There: instant 90% banrate, 55% winrate champion that is actually extremely easy to defeat with appropriate countermeasures.

This is of course a theoretical example but it demonstrates the point that champions can exist who have high winrates and banrates but can be dealt with easily if you just know how to deal with them and are willing to do so. That such a situation is theoretically possible proves that your 'its safe to say' statement is false.

TLDR: literally nothing you said here was accurate.

Hibeki2 votes

A) Despite whether you like it or not, this game is shown by statistics to not be attracting new players and slowly losing old ones. For a game that is still in progress and receiving of updates, this is not a 'kind let go' of a memory, this is frustration causing people to quit. You liking the game or not has absolutely no impact on whether the game is going downhill. You might like the direction the game is going, but its very clear its in a direction most people would rather steer away from. If the game was still going great, you'd see more people coming in than more people quitting.

B) Dude even in the most recent update cycle they have even SAID they are primarily balancing for LCS. This entire mage update is for LCS.

C) Public opinion in PTE is almost exactly the same is Live. It's not a special mindset of players. They rarely listen to them, but rather consult their 'data' for the answers (yet conveniently never share the data).

Every single time there has been a questionable update on pbe go to live, exactly all of the things we said were going to be wrong went wrong. The most recent and extreme example being the Kai'Sa changes. People said she was super overbuffed, it went live, turned out she was super overbuffed. Nerf came in, people said it wasnt enough, it went live, turned out it wasnt enough.

D) This is a competitive primary game. Bans are made not because not because of fun playstyles or irritating playstyles. It is 100% reflective of a kit performing too well in some regard. Even in your example, that is a broken champion. Unbeatable in one scenario, unplayable in another. Not a healthy design and obviously needs fixing, with the ban rate reflecting that.

You are using your own opinions as counterpoints for statistics and things that aren't even theories, rather proven subjects.

Nothing I have said here is opinion. These are well established facts that have been proven over the course of years and will continue to be proven. League of Legends is not the god game and riotgames is not the god company. It is not the exception of every rule and every pattern is followed for the same reasons the same pattern is followed in other games. Riot Games engages in shady practice just like literally every coporation in existence and to say everything about this game is perfect is childish and naive.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Lots of what you just said again was opinion or a creative interpretation of a fact. I'm not going to hold your hand all night and go back and forth point for point with you.

You speak in too many absolutes about things you clearly have the barest knowledge of. You would make a good sith.

Hibeki1 votes

You're trying to use your own naivety as argumentative fuel. It doesnt work.

Marshbouy4 votes

Somebody, when I was just starting out on the boards, told me "you are taking your feelings and assertions and presenting them as facts." and that's stuck with me ever since.

Eedat3 votes

BUT I GOT CRUSHED LAST GAME BY X CHAMP OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Zed genius1 votes

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Z3Sleeper2 votes

There’s a reason people state things this way. It’s to create a stronger sounding arguement.

Basically what sounds more compelling?

I think Shaco is broken, here’s why:

Or

Shaco is broken, here’s why:

It’s not so much stating as fact but rather stating as a strong opinion and should be read as such. It’s hard to listen to someone who speaks with “i think”s and “i feel”s because they aren’t actually taking a side in the argument.

50Shades0fTrynda2 votes

people just want to say "this game is trash when compared to first 5 seasons , from user perspective" which isn't far from truth... look around you

and on the other side, for a very smart person nothing should be a problematic problem

The Whamboozler2 votes

Yeah... most people just kinda assume that THEIR opinions are completely irrefutable facts and that everyone who disagrees with them is biased and wrong. Because people are self-absorbed and close-minded when they're not being actively stupid.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Right, because clearly if one person says a stupid or completely incorrect thing confidently as a fact and another person who has done the research states their far more accurate position as an opinion, the person who spoke more confidently is correct by default.

/s

The Whamboozler1 votes

Um... no?

That's not what I said, but hey... feel free to stand on a soap box and dress me down like I DID say that if it'll help your self-esteem or whatever. All I said was basically that people cling to their own opinions as facts and disregard anything that conflicts with their opinions. I have NO IDEA how you decided to pull out that I was making some assumptions about who was right or wrong in this hypothetical argument that you seem to think is happening... but I didn't. I was just making a blunt, cynical statement about people being self-absorbed morons. If you wanna tell me that people aren't all stubborn dipshits that will defend their opinions to the ends of the earth no matter HOW stupid or illogical they are... well, I'd disagree, but you could at least argue that since it is only my opinion.

Instead you seem to have decided to make up some shit and pretend I took a stance I didn't so that you could scold me for it? Why? A simple misunderstanding... or just a firm need to talk people down and feel smarter or something?

The Sword Saint1 votes

I was agreeing with you. I'm sorry that it didn't come across that way and you ended up wasting your time with this response. I figured it would be clear enough since nothing I said had much to do with your comment, plus the /s, but that was my mistake.

The Whamboozler1 votes

HA! Well now I feel like a tool. My bad dawg, I thought you were sassing me. I'm so used to it online.

Accept my apology for my hair trigger, and have a good day!

[sg-soraka]

SephAgro1 votes

"muh facts over feelings"

oh no you didnt

SKT ReZa1 votes

if everyone on country buy iPhone and few samsung , it is a fact that iPhone is better, if pokimane and nb3 and other my favorite streamers give a d!ck to game in 2018 , it is a fact that game sucks

Kairoptra1 votes

It depends upon what you mean by "better". Did it sell better? Yes. Is it therefore more successful? Yes. If that is what you mean by "better", than yes, iPhone is "better", but you should try different wording. However, if you mean that an iPhone is of higher quality than a Samsung, you're not justified to say that one is factually better than the other. That is an opinion. If you were to say that "more people think iPhone is better than Samsung", then you would be fine. However, the quality of a product depends upon the standards of the individual.

Also, that analogy does not line up at all; a statistic taken from a wide variety of people is very different than a handful of content creators on the internet quitting a game. Now, if you had tried to say that a game has more players than LoL and it is therefore better, then it would've made sense. However, it still would've been wrong as I stated above. It's like celebrity endorsement; even if this person's famous, they're still just one person who thinks a certain way. It doesn't actually say anything about the product. Just because a few internet personalities say they don't like the game, doesn't mean it's trash. Even if you had a large enough sample size to take a proper survey, you could only ever say that the number of people who believe x is greater than the people who believe y.

big boi edri1 votes

but mah upvotes make it fact

Boiled Triangles1 votes

Is this really necessary though? I think it's redundant to say "this is just my opinion btw pls dont hurt me" after every single comment you make that isn't a pure fact. If someone makes a post saying the game is trash, then it goes without saying that it's just that persons opinion. It's the same thing as forcing people to type /s after using sarcasm, something that is completely unnecessary at the best of times, and annoying at the worst.

This is just my opinion btw so please don't downvote me okay

Kairoptra1 votes

Don't straw-man me; I'm not saying be pathetic, I'm saying be open to correction and hearing the opinions of others. All you need to say is stuff like "I think" or "I feel" or "I believe". Is that really so much to ask?

Also, /s has its place; if someone makes a comment that the game is trash and you make a sarcastic remark, but word it as if you are actually defending it, /s will serve you well. It's just too hard to convey proper sarcasm over the internet. If you avoid using /s, but want to make yourself sound as sarcastic as possible to compensate, you often end up coming off as an idiot or a jerk to other people.

The Sword Saint1 votes

You don't have to say it after every sentence. Starting of with something like, 'heres' my opinion', 'this is my take on things', 'my interpretation is', 'this is my viewpoint' or any of a huge number of other ways to communicate that you are not presenting your following statements as verifiable objective truth is just common courtesy. It's just lazy and/or deceitful to say something like 'Riot will never nerf x champion' for example without making it clear that this is just your subjective view rather than something you heard a rioter say in an ama, ask riot column, forum post, or whatever.

The exact problem is that there are too many people posting on the forums who have just enough energy to throw out a post that states opinions as facts and not enough energy to make the tiny effort to clarify. When you mix these posts in with people who are posting genuine facts taken from statistics websites and/or from rioter commentary then it becomes muddy and annoying to parse through them and ask everyone 'ok, so whats the source on that' on the off chance that a particular statement actually does have something backing its validity.

Mcsquzzy1 votes

FACT: I gave riot money for skins, so I spend more time learning champs I have skins for

LVL99 Helper TK1 votes

This thread is your riot-butt-licking opinion by the way

Kairoptra1 votes

No, it isn’t. I’m saying that if you do complain about the game (which I think you should), you should have the courtesy of not acting like your opinion is absolute.

Also, I made a point of saying the same thing to people who defended Riot. Read more than what it takes to accuse me of being a Riot-worshipper, why dontcha?

Vlada Cut1 votes

"Camille I suggest you to go defensively against their carry." "Camille GO FULL AD NOOB" Like this?

Snowman Arc1 votes

Generally, when you want your opinion to be respected as correct or as a fact, you need to be able to lay down proof of it being correct and being able to back it up. And this is the problem I have with the boards. Most people using these boards here are generally low elo, around silver and bronze, and they manifest them with their ideas and opinions and think they are facts. When I try to disprove them, I'm either called things like "low elo bully" or that I don't respect others.

For example, a classic case is when everyone in low elo call Garen OP, because he is tanky, deals damage etc. They don't really have solid facts to prove that, though. They just use very specific situations to try and support their claim. but they are generally easily disproven. For example, you can just play outside his melee range. You can pick Gnar against him! The fact that Garen, if played against correctly, has terrible win rates PROVES that Garen isn't an OP champion, and the only cases that Garen can seem to be OP are cases where Garen's opponent misplayed quite a lot, or is in an advantageous matchup, which is just champion design and every champion has good and bad match ups. Therefore, when I attribute their thinking of Garen being OP to the fact that they are "bad" players, and then I prove that they are "bad" because they are low elo, they get all defensive and that I want to demean them, when it's actually true. Like it or not, Bronze players are bad players, and bad players makes bad plays and decisions, which lead to beliefs like Garen's OP, when in reality, he's not.

To the OP's point, I want to add this: If you are a lower elo player, state your opinion, but be open about it. Don't take it as a fact. Ask around the boards. I'm a platinum player, so I have some basic knowledge over this game to be able to answer most questions, for example. If a higher elo player tries to consult you about a situation and calls your opinion to be wrong and LAYS DOWN FACTS about why that is, take the time to read, comprehend and listen. Most of the time they will be correct over your opinion, and if you think there is a case of a mistake, you can lay down your own counter-point to try to disprove it.

For example, if the bronze player says that Kaisa is OP and the diamond player says she's not, because " I haven't lost a game against her yet", that's not proof enough. The bronze player can go ahead and claim (solid proof) that Kaisa is the most highly contested pick in the highest elo, and also has an insane win rate in professional games, thus proving the diamond guy wrong.

But generally, it goes the other way around. So, to the lower elo players: Please, take time to read and listen to what others, especially higher elo, say. They are probably correct and will help you with your own gameplay.

Oohaha Sharkbait1 votes

Yeah, except when somebody makes a post about game balance, it should be assumed that it's their opinion. If I'm talking with people, I don't say "in my opinion" or "I feel like" every time I say something.

Despìca Bìll1 votes

Lol. This should be stickied into the board rules, since it's apparently a really hard concept for most people to grasp.

I think this happens so often because it sounds way more confident to say, "This does happen so often because." If you can't be cogent, be loud and stubborn!

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