I've never understood Mundo's champion design

Z3Sleeper··36 votes·13,200 views

What niche is he filling exactly? He's literally just a wall of meat that statchecks everyone and has a singular instance of interactive gameplay through his Q, which ironically makes him extremely uninteractive in lane since he just last hits with cleavers if he can't successfully statcheck yet.

There's something that every Juggernaut in the game has: a gimmick--something that has to be played around and has high impact to compensate for reliability; be it tentacles, spires, ghouls, Darius Q & stacks, shotgun knees, etc.. Even Garen has a more fleshed out design in terms of interactivity and niche.

I know people like to meme about Skarner being the worst designed Juggernaut but I'd say it's Mundo by a mile.

PS Edit: I'm saying he's too one-dimensional and statcheck reliant at all stages of the game. Not to mention extremely dull to play against in lane.

Dr Mundo needs a bit more overall durability if he is to successfully go where he pleases. R - Sadism HEALING 40/50/60% maximum health ⇒ 50/75/100% maximum health

NO NO NO NO NO STOP! STOP RIGHT THERE! STOP IT!

78 Comments

trunoob41324 votes

He's filling the IDGAF design where you run in cause tons of havoc and never die.

Plus if you want to compare him to garen since you used garen as an examaple they are both really similar actually. Both have, movement speed buff, auto attack reset, an aoe dmg skill, bonus health regen, both tanky (garen through damage reduction mundo through his health regen), mundo just slows people rather than silences. Both are also kiteable, Both filll the niche of run in cause tons of havoc and never dying all while not caring about anything.

Z3Sleeper17 votes

The difference is that Garen has his W to play with. Also his spin has a cooldown and is a zone of damage around him while active, both can be played around. His Q removes slows, which adds more depth as well.

In contrast, Mundo's W has a negligible cooldown and basically just serves to amp his damage (slightly to reduce CC when running away, but this is an afterthought during a fight). His E is just a basic damage auto enhancer with an AD amp (which is basically permanent), no strings attached. It also arbitrarily increases his magic resist cuz why not?

And then there's the regen aspect. Garen's can be played around, touching him stops him from regening. Mundo however just has his permanently active and has his R to just amp up his healing--no interaction required.

Ofcourse, Mundo throws cleavers. But that's about it. Also like I said this really only serves to make him one of the most uninteractive lane opponents in the game.

This concludes why Garen has more depth to his gameplay than Mundo.

notice me Sin pi3 votes

i cant believe im finding myself agreeing that DrMundo is more braindead champ than Garen is, after reading your comment

Drugoth18 votes

Mundo goes where he pleases.

That's it, that's his design,

SEKAI6 votes

His kit revolves around the idea that he's both a sadist and a masochist at the same time, I mean 2 of his spells are named as "Masochism" and "Sadism" (though with the theme placed in reverse to the actual function of the spells for comical effects).

He hits hard and torture you with Q, W and E, while he hurts himself during W as well as the casting of his other spells and use R to run into your face for you to hit him. That's what he does.

Gameplay-wise, he's made as a dueling bruiser who primarily stacks HP, the kind of niche also shared by someone like Shen and Garen (and other Juggernaut champs) but Mundo is more distinct in that he has an exaggerated regen sustain as his core gameplay identity.

Z3Sleeper5 votes

I get the thematic aspect of it. It entirely makes sense. He burns himself, strengthens through pain, injects toxins, etc.

But gameplay wise he is a dueling bruiser who primarily stacks HP a statchecker with exaggerated regen sustain stats to check with as his core gameplay identiy.

Garen vs Mundo is explained below above. I don't think Shen vs Mundo needs explaining. Shen has far more depth than the both of them in his gameplay.

SEKAI9 votes

{quoted}

I get the thematic aspect of it. It entirely makes sense. He burns himself, strengthens through pain, injects toxins, etc.

But gameplay wise he is a dueling bruiser who primarily stacks HP a statchecker with exaggerated regen sustain stats to check with as his core gameplay identiy.

Garen vs Mundo is explained below. I don't think Shen vs Mundo needs explaining. Shen has far more depth than the both of them in his gameplay.

I mean, some champs are just meant to be more stat-checky than their peers. It's like how grass is green, you know.

.....

Also, I've always hated the spirit blade thingy for Shen in terms of its implementation. It's forced gameplay depth rather than organic depth, and it is also badly implemented in ways that make it very wonky and unintuitive to play (in particular: the delay of the blade because it has to fly to you to do shit making many Q and W's play far worse than needed to be). Also the addition of spirit blade still doesn't change the fact he's still a massive stat-check anyway, with the only difference that he now does more damage and duels better (W basically auto-win trades anybody?) unlike before where he was kinda just very hard to kill but had a lackluster offensive potential besides his famous E/RE engage, which arguably means the change actually makes him more of a stat-check than before. But that's another topic.

Z3Sleeper4 votes

Statchecking is fine to a point. Half the champions in the game (arguably all) involve some sort of statchecking. But even then, every other melee statchecker has more depth to their gameplay than Mundo does.

When comparing any other melees, it's hard to decide who has more depth to their statchecking than who. But the answer is clear when you compare anyone to Mundo.

SEKAI3 votes

{quoted}

Statchecking is fine to a point. Half the champions in the game (arguably all) involve some sort of statchecking. But even every other melee statchecker has more depth to their gameplay than Mundo does.

When comparing any other melees, it's hard to decide who has more depth to their statchecking than who. But the answer is clear when you compare anyone to Mundo.

I think the only thing Mundo really needs is upping his HP cost, so that it's not going to be completely obsolete after he gets his first HP item.

So Mundo would be fighting against his struggle to balance hurting others, being hurt by others (both of which he loves), and actually surviving against HIMSELF to do the above 2.

Not saying he should die from like 2 casts of his spells, but make the cast actually matter. Like, Vlad has TWO %HP costs on his spells (one max %HP the other current %HP), but somehow Mundo got away with having ONE (and that is his ulti which grants superman regens so it's basically quite void as long as Mundo doesn't wait til the very last second before death to use it, which no sensible Mundos do that anyway). At least make his W cost either current or max %HP for a start. I think that would be a good move overall.

Z3Sleeper6 votes

Upping his HP cost on Q would definitely fix the boring lane thing. But I'm not looking for Mundo nerfs. I want Mundo changes.

He needs more interaction literally anywhere in his kit. Any single thing they add would make him twice as interactive as he currently is.

Nick Da Chip5 votes

Mundo's thing is he wants to fight you at low health while not dying.

He is also the premeir meat shield in the game.

How dare you say mundo has no identify. How dare you, sir.

BestPudgeNA5 votes

Let me help you understand

DrMundo Mundo goes where he pleases

fin

Kadexe5 votes

Preaching to the choir, dude. Riot knows he needs a VGU, it's been stated before that he's one of the top 10 highest priority champions. Unfortunately Riot can't rework every champion that needs it at once.

Onandaga4 votes

I see no problem with stat-checking by itself to be honest. Passive abilities are as good as anything else for defining gameplay, as long as they are designed well and fit the champ of course.

The only skill of his I really think needs a change is his W. It's just...meh. Aside from that, if they ever rework him where he gains damage/bonuses based on how much damage he takes, kinda like Hulk where attacking him just makes he angrier.

Nick Da Chip2 votes

I agree with the W change. Everything else is very fine for mundo, except maybe his passive.

He still needs some sort of AoE DPS though to keep his strengths in the jungle.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

His E does that.

Onandaga1 votes

{quoted}

His E does that.

What I meant is giving him something deeper then just %missing HP damage. Something like giving him a rage resource bar that fills up based on how much flat HP he loses over a period of time he loses which grants him bonuses the higher it is. Kinda like Tryn's rage bar but obviously with different mechanics and bonuses involved.

Battalion4 votes

I've never understood Mundo's champion design

To be a grape flavour of Hulk.

What niche is he filling exactly?

Olaf Blitzcrank Braum > DrMundo < -- this one (avengers)

There's something that every Juggernaut in the game has: a gimmick--something that has to be played around and has high impact to compensate for reliability; be it tentacles, spires, ghouls, Darius Q & stacks, shotgun knees, etc.. Even Garen has a more fleshed out design in terms of interactivity and niche.

His gimmick is cleavers. A mundo who can't land his cleavers is a slightly worse mundo.

PS Edit: I'm saying he's too one-dimensional and statcheck reliant at all stages of the game. Not to mention extremely dull to play against in lane.

Yes.

remakoro3 votes

DrMundo does not care what you thing about his character design.

M00ndanc33 votes

anti-magic damage regen tank

Meep Man3 votes

His niche is "Regeneration Tank", albeit a very old and need of update design. Even Riot has admitted and knows this. He also has a bit of a "Berserker" theme going on since he really DOES go where he pleases usually and ends up hammering ADCs into the ground if they aren't fed or have extremely powerful kiting mechanics built into their kit. There's a few parallels between him and Olaf, with Dr. Mundo being the more defensive of the two.

If we were to try and guess at a niche he would have after an update based on his recently released lore, it would be a "Pain Is Good" champion that probably takes Tahm Kench's Grey Health mechanic to the extreme. Still a "Regeneration Tank", but different from current.

Kieferr3 votes

IMO I'm so tired of Riot reworking every champion into a convoluted, skillshotting 7 passive mess of a kit which is what's kinda been done with Kat, Sejuani, or Fiora. Why can't simple champions exist? why does everything need to be a nightmare just to play properly? I myself prefer playing champs that don't require reading a manual to get into. Leave Mundo be.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Simple champions are fine.

Ones that are just stat-checks are not.

We don't need every champion to be a Riven, but we do need them to have something to think about in their kit.

Think Ashe: Simple, new player friendly, but still has enough complexity to be a good LCS level champion. We could use more Ashes in the game.

The issue isn't complexity versus simplicity, but outplay potential versus no outplay potential. Katarina is just as problematic as Mundo.

3TWarrior1 votes

why do you need for there to be something to think about?

mundo plays the long game with a decent early

his primary focus is to poke and to bull-rush one enemy

don't ask for change to a champion's kit just to make it more interesting...

otherwise we get: Gangplank(ruined the jolly roger), mordekaiser(what's his identity now?) , kogmaw(mostly reverted), etc

champions that need changes are the champions with little to no impact in a game, like the old Yorick

or champions whose identity doesn't fit what they have: like old Sion, who was an undead war machine that somehow threw a sparkly ball at the opponent to stun them while using almost all of his kit as stat buffs: that's stat checking and even that only made him "functional" in the game

Z3Sleeper2 votes

We also get rework Warwick, rework Poppy, Cho Gath update, rework Sion, rework Galio (not the best example cuz of current meta but it's a step up from before), Malphite mini-update, Sejauni rework, Volibear update and I'm prolly missing alot more.

I have to disagree with you and say that champions whose gameplay isn't up to modern standards needs to be modernized as well.

Morticianjohn1 votes

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Of all the things that one could complain about here on the boards the topic is Mundo....

Since I've been watching LCS there are dozens of champions I've never seen picked (such as Garen, Tryndamere, Master Yi, Xin, Lux, etc...) Mundo, however, has been picked at least a few times.

While I know it's probably different teams or whatever, but focusing any effort into an update for Mundo with the current state of the game is like replacing the coffee table when the carpets are soaking wet. The priority should be elsewhere.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That quote doesn't quite apply here. The purpose of the quote is to say "If it isn't broken, don't "fix" [break] it".

(If you look up the meaning, it goes along the lines of don't fix what is working satisfactorily or sufficiently, but satisfactory and sufficiently don't imply they are at their best state)

An analogy that applies here would be "Even if your 2000 PC can run modern games at the lowest possible settings, a more modern PC will run it at max settings".

Not to put words in your mouth, but I interpret your response as "My 2000 PC can run it, why upgrade?".

I personally believe that if the design is outdated in terms of current design standards (updated champion design philosophy), update it.

Riot agrees I'm sure, which is why Mundo is on the update list.

Morticianjohn1 votes

I just like having a few simple champions. I also am aware that I move a lot slower than the average LOL gamer. For me it feels like all of the changes are coming at breakneck pace. For example I have only set up one rune page for ARAM and the rest of my rune pages are usually just default runes and mastery pages that were preset by riot. I just don't play enough to bother with learning and setting up new pages.

I have no idea what abilities Ka Sai has other than that she can go invis and has one ability that has great range. Point is, I haven't played much this season (basically haven't played any ranked games since November of last year). I haven't even processed the banner of command changes and now they're changing something else.

SLOW DOWN RIOT. Stop changing things, Don't change Mundo, or Malphite, or anyone because I can't keep up..... well that's what I want to say, but I know it's not about me. Honestly, whatever is best for the game is good enough for me. I plan to play less and continue losing until I'm actually the best player out of 10 for once in a game (strange how one can play for 2 years and never once be the best player in the game, you'd think there would be a 1/10 chance of being the best in the game but I've found that is not the case).

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Yoooo I'm always training new Yorick mains, I'd be happy to help. Hmu if you see me on or just message me with questions, I can show you da wae.

Pretty busy with school right now though so Mon-Thurs I'll prolly never be on but I have the LoL app.

Morticianjohn1 votes

Thanks,

After this conversation I decided to do my ranked placements this season (ended last season S4). I actually am a "fill" main which usually means support. I had heard rumblings that top was open for us fill players but after the 10 placements I had 7 support games and 1 top and 2 jg.

The other factor with me is that I am working on getting all of my champions to mastery lvl 5. Meaning, at best I don't "main" a champion. Once I reach mastery lvl 5 I'll probably not play that champion much. I am finding the fun in the game where I can find it. I may have opinions about changes etc... but for someone like me it doesn't matter what they change I'll have fun.

Yorick will always be special to me though and he will always be my favorite champion to take top lane, ARAM, rotating game modes etc....

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

I just like having a few simple champions. I also am aware that I move a lot slower than the average LOL gamer. For me it feels like all of the changes are coming at breakneck pace. For example I have only set up one rune page for ARAM and the rest of my rune pages are usually just default runes and mastery pages that were preset by riot. I just don't play enough to bother with learning and setting up new pages.

I have no idea what abilities Ka Sai has other than that she can go invis and has one ability that has great range. Point is, I haven't played much this season (basically haven't played any ranked games since November of last year). I haven't even processed the banner of command changes and now they're changing something else.

SLOW DOWN RIOT. Stop changing things, Don't change Mundo, or Malphite, or anyone because I can't keep up..... well that's what I want to say, but I know it's not about me. Honestly, whatever is best for the game is good enough for me. I plan to play less and continue losing until I'm actually the best player out of 10 for once in a game (strange how one can play for 2 years and never once be the best player in the game, you'd think there would be a 1/10 chance of being the best in the game but I've found that is not the case).

I agree. I am tired of them nerfing macro and decision making champions to accommodate low levels where bad decision making is rampant.

I was just playing heimer and thinking of all the completely unnecessary nerfs he has been hammered with repeatedly, even though he was never a threat to high elo or professional play.

They have a hard on for any gameplay that involves dashing around like a madman spamming abilities in every direction constantly.

God help you if you have a strategy that slows down their dash fest and takes control of the battlefield. We can't have that.

I think they are under the mistaken impression that the game will be more interesting to watch if everyone has a billion dashes and displacements. That's superficial if there isn't interesting decision making and strategy behind what they are doing. It's just flash, no substance.

3TWarrior1 votes

the only time I really approve of a change is when the proposed changes fit the champion more than the original and the playerbase approves at the same time.

personally I dislike the change to chogath's E. He is now less about sustain and more about macro and micro play while maintaining his individuality, so that's a good thing, but it is not much more than he had before the changes

there's also reworked Shen, whom I would find it difficult to find people that like the new version compared to the old version, despite how simple the kit was. The new Q he gained also makes very little sense with his character design and is his most clunky ability

the marksma and season 6 mastery update also shoved balance to the side and caused many of the problems we have today.

Progress for the sake of progress is not always good

Z3Sleeper1 votes

You can have both exist in a champion.

Volibear is one of my favorite champions and yet has plenty of room for skill expression in his very simplistic kit via his Q, E (that buff woooo!) and even his R.

Warwick is another great example of this, being able to buffer through CC with his Q and R and skillfully setting up multi-man fears in a teamfight (plus alot more, WW rework is pretty crazy in how simplistic yet advanced it is).

But Mundo isn't like them. His kit is not only simplistic but also one-dimensional and completely lacking in skill expression outside tossing cleavers. He just has an extremely dated design from an era where stat-checking was one of the core aspects of the game (1st half of season 1 and prior).

Morticianjohn1 votes

There is a ton of skill expression in knowing when where and how to approach an enemy. Mundo is exactly the type of champion that requires that kind of skill expression. There is a place in the game for this and the difference between a kill or a death is often one missed skillshot, in that way mundo is the same as any other champion no matter how complex the kit.

While I do like the new WW, my brother still likes the old WW, but either one could work. As much as I enjoy new WW (and since the rework he's probably my 2nd or 1st most played champion in ranked games) I think that these types of VGU updates and reworks are (almost) a total waste of time. They don't earn the company money (that I can see) and they are taking staff away from the most important parts of the game (which I believe are balance, bugs, and customer service)

Example: Yorick has always been my baby. He was almost never played when I picked him up, He needed a VGU desperately and hadn't had a new skin in years. They devoted time resources and effort into a VGU and Gameplay update for poor Yorick.... His play rate has gone up 100%. This drastic rise took him from a .5% playrate to almost 1% (with the slight exception when he was briefly OP and everyone wanted the FREELO). They finally release a skin for him and probably made 5 dollars in sales from the yorick mains.

Yorick is and always will remain one of my favorite champs because he is an undertaker like me, however, if they are focusing time and resources on something that no one cares about they are taking away from the important pieces of the game.

I appreciate the attention Riot but I can speak on behalf of the 1/10th of the Yorick mains that I represent, leave us alone. You're better off focusing on a champion that everyone will love.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

I'm a fellow Yorick main as well (one-trick actually). At one point I was top in NA (peaking at D1 this season so far) and according to lolskill (which I don't really trust) I was top Yorick in the world.

I bought the skin :3

But anyway, I don't think the game state should be sacrificed for the purpose of maximum revenue.

From a company standpoint, that's the goal: making money. But from a game health standpoint, it's the opposite.

The first stuff though, knowing when to approach and whatnot, that's the bare-bones general game knowledge and not Mundo specific. Every champion has to take into account the factor of stat-checking against every opponent. The problem is that that's literally all Mundo has to consider.

Adding you btw, all Yoricks are welcome on my friends list.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

There is a ton of skill expression in knowing when where and how to approach an enemy. Mundo is exactly the type of champion that requires that kind of skill expression. There is a place in the game for this and the difference between a kill or a death is often one missed skillshot, in that way mundo is the same as any other champion no matter how complex the kit.

While I do like the new WW, my brother still likes the old WW, but either one could work. As much as I enjoy new WW (and since the rework he's probably my 2nd or 1st most played champion in ranked games) I think that these types of VGU updates and reworks are (almost) a total waste of time. They don't earn the company money (that I can see) and they are taking staff away from the most important parts of the game (which I believe are balance, bugs, and customer service)

Example: Yorick has always been my baby. He was almost never played when I picked him up, He needed a VGU desperately and hadn't had a new skin in years. They devoted time resources and effort into a VGU and Gameplay update for poor Yorick.... His play rate has gone up 100%. This drastic rise took him from a .5% playrate to almost 1% (with the slight exception when he was briefly OP and everyone wanted the FREELO). They finally release a skin for him and probably made 5 dollars in sales from the yorick mains.

Yorick is and always will remain one of my favorite champs because he is an undertaker like me, however, if they are focusing time and resources on something that no one cares about they are taking away from the important pieces of the game.

I appreciate the attention Riot but I can speak on behalf of the 1/10th of the Yorick mains that I represent, leave us alone. You're better off focusing on a champion that everyone will love.

You aren't factoring in that lots of people became Yorick mains after the rework, who wouldn't bother with him before. I'm one of them. He's now one of my mains. And I did buy the skin, at full price. Which I rarely do. Yorick is one of the few reworks where I think they were justified in completely throwing away the old kit and doing something new. I love his split push tools. He gives me more decision making tools in a game that is far too focused on micro.

Others who are use to playing Yasuo like a caffine addled ADHD kid might call Yorick boring; but I love the fact that I can win by decision making, taking a more slow and steady approach to the game.

Risen293 votes

Stat check is thrown around as a pejorative too easily. Stat checking is a part of any game thay involves levels and items, by design. Its not inherently a bad thing. You could have a game of all stat checking and it would still require tons of decision making to win.

Champions that are more macro or decision making focused arent bad because of that. Sometimes I prefer champions that let me focus on superior decision making rather than clicking skill.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Those are primarily the champions I play. I won't lie, I'm terrible mechanically. But my macro was good enough to get me to D1 while playing lower skill champions.

Anyway, statchecking is fine. Every champion in this game statchecks to a point. But Mundo takes it too far. Not even Yi or Olaf are as one-dimensional.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

Those are primarily the champions I play. I won't lie, I'm terrible mechanically. But my macro was good enough to get me to D1 while playing lower skill champions.

Anyway, statchecking is fine. Every champion in this game statchecks to a point. But Mundo takes it too far. Not even Yi or Olaf are as one-dimensional.

Yi is nothing but a stat check aside from Q dodging. He just seems like there's more to him because it's easier to screw up, being squishy.

If anything that makes Yi more difficult to play at high elo because his success is all based on decision making.

Ionian Vulpix3 votes

He's a really, really old champion. Back then, it seems like they just made a passable character model and slapped some abilities and animations. And they just did that for anything they could think of. Hence why magical fantasy game has traditional spartan warrior and why Mordekaiser exists.

Wheatloaf3 votes

The only thing he has differentiating himself substantially from similar champions is the fact that he's the only tank/juggernaut with sufficiently threatening poke.

Elkington VI2 votes

Mundo is a juggernaut/poker in teamfights. Can also clear the jungle extremely quickly and has strong objective control (dragon, baron, vilemaw) with his cleavers, which shred them all fairly quickly.

Has the most reliable build-pathing out of all the dps champions, since he can go full tank items without sacrificing damage.

Some of the problems he faces now include defensive itemization being lackluster on its own, lackluster defensive options through runes, every other champ having %hp damage, and grievous wounds being everywhere.

Also, the game heavily favors frontloaded/burst damage, while Mundo is the very definition of sustained dps (though his newer E on-hit helps somewhat). His kit is outdated, but can still work.

ShadowParker2 votes

How is garen more fleshed out in interactivity then Mundo? Lmfao.

The counterplay to garen is literally to just not get close lol

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Congrats: Garen has more counterplay.

And he does have to time his W properly, now.

ShadowParker2 votes

Mundo has cleavers that you play around. He has to use them to cs and to hit enemies. As well, Mundo has to be conscious of his health because of his hp costs.

Garen has less counterplay then mundo imo.

Mundo is way more interactive and fleshed out than Garen.

Saianna2 votes

He belongs to very niche group of few champs that stack health as their main stat. Very old and simple and fun design.

Well, he's like the only one left with HP as main stat.

gabetheguy2 votes

you just described 90% of champs made before season 4

Kanzler1 votes

Since when is Mundo a juggernaut? Isn't he just a tank which nullifies half your arguments? Sure, he isn't that much to to play, but that is a symptom of his age and an indicator that he could use a rework.

I would never say he is OP though. His purpose is to run in, annoy your adc, and not die for days.

Doozku3 votes

He's a juggernaut, he has no utility or hard cc in his kit.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Dr Mundo needs a bit more overall durability if he is to successfully go where he pleases. R - Sadism HEALING 40/50/60% maximum health ⇒ 50/75/100% maximum health

WHY

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