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I don't think that reducing the price of crit items will solve the main problem

YumaS2Astral··2 votes·807 views

Crit ADCs can't work well currently because most games are over before they even get a chance to reach their powerspike.

Also, damage is so high that they can't survive early, even with the base stat buffs that Riot recently gave.

What Riot should be doing is to nerf early game and, possibly, reduce the overall damage. I know that this sounds cliché, but it would have been a better solution overall, not only for ADCs, but for all classes, peharps for the entire game.

Reducing the price of crit items while lowering their stats for late game actually makes it so that crit ADCs can snowball as hard as other classes currently (so it doesn't solve the snowball problem; instead it just worsens the problem) while actually making their late game worse, not that they are going to make it to late game most of time, but when they do, they are weaker than before.

Another thing that Riot should have been doing is to make towers more useful and Baron Nashor an actual boss that is difficult to take down. With those changes, ADCs would be even more necessary to take those objectives, and you wouldn't have to nerf mages for going bot.

I don't know why Riot insists in this early game meta, with useless towers and a laughable Baron. It is just so unhealthy for the game.

8 Comments

OtterlyLost3 votes

Their early games are still bad; their early game stats didn't get reverted nor did fleetfootwork get buffed so there's no reason for their laning phase to suddenly be amazing. Their midgame power trough will also be slightly worse as instead of 30 to 60% crit chance(depending on if they have IE), they'll have 25 to 50%. By 3 items, which was how it was before anyway, they'll have 100% crit which, at that point, just acts as a multiplier on their AA's; the only difference between that and now is that they'll have less AD behind those crits and will have to back them up with more AD from other items(so a BT, DD, LW, BoRK). I don't think their late game is any weaker at all as what makes some ADCs better or worse in the late game is usually a combination of items and what their kit is like. :/ Since Lucian is caster based and short ranged, he tends to fall off as tanks get tankier. Same with Ezreal. Jinx and Tristana are better late game because of long range(Tristana's literally scales with her into the late game), resets, and some kind of AS steroid; not only that they're primarily AA based.

As an ADC main, I'm optimistic about these changes. I don't get why people who dislike ADCs consider it a buff(it really isn't) and why people who like ADCs consider it a nerf(again, it isn't) when its clearly intended as a compromise from Riot and should be taken as a net Neutral change. Its a compromise in that ADC mains get gentler build paths(being able to get a Pick on first back is nice if you got shoved out of lane; you're not in a gold trough by buying something else; Zeal items also giving less crit so that you don't over cap and waste gold is also nice) with understandable gold cuts(again, the items are losing stats; why shouldn't they also lose in price?) and ADC haters get the random aspect of ADC crits taken out(if you have 100% crit then there is no random element; you're always critting and at that point it just modifies their AA's to do more damage) and that their items, over all, are inherently weaker than any iteration before them. Its a win win.

Whisper871 votes

I really think Riot and player base needs to let go of the idea that a champ needs to have a strong mid game presence to be viable. Like instead of buffing the early-mid game of an ADC (or buffing the build path), we just need to make the late game powerspike a realistic possibility. The fact that jinx or azir coming online in a solo q game is a fantasy is very problematic for the balance of the game. Playing scaling champs and early-mid game snowballers need to be equally viable options. No, I don't expect perfect balance, and I don't expect every champ to be viable. But for crying out loud scaling has always been a big thing and making that aspect of the game take a back seat just removes a huge element of the game and homogenizes it. Like the only scaling champs who are viable are the ones who have an abnormally strong lane phase or mid game for their class (Orianna, Xayah). It's just silly.

OtterlyLost1 votes

{quoted}

I really think Riot and player base needs to let go of the idea that a champ needs to have a strong mid game presence to be viable. Like instead of buffing the early-mid game of an ADC (or buffing the build path), we just need to make the late game powerspike a realistic possibility. The fact that jinx or azir coming online in a solo q game is a fantasy is very problematic for the balance of the game. Playing scaling champs and early-mid game snowballers need to be equally viable options. No, I don't expect perfect balance, and I don't expect every champ to be viable. But for crying out loud scaling has always been a big thing and making that aspect of the game take a back seat just removes a huge element of the game and homogenizes it. Like the only scaling champs who are viable are the ones who have an abnormally strong lane phase or mid game for their class (Orianna, Xayah). It's just silly.

Well, champions wouldn't need strong early to mid games if they'd actually lengthen the games, which could easily be done by either buffing towers or removing some of the damage that they take. For example, part of what has lead to ADC irrelevance isn't just directed nerfs to them but indirect nerfs to towers. It used to be that ADCs were used for taking objectives because they did good, consistent damage to turrets. Well, they keep buffing mage's damage to towers unnecessarily, they're giving tanks options to take turrets faster, and before they removed it, honestly a bannered minion took towers faster and better than ADCs. They've basically already homogenized and stolen ADCs main job.

Maybe if you want players to stop considering a strong mid game as a sign of viability, you should start expecting Riot to make games last longer than mid game.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Well, champions wouldn't need strong early to mid games if they'd actually lengthen the games, which could easily be done by either buffing towers or removing some of the damage that they take.

That is basically what I was trying to say.

Those buffs can make ADCs viable again, but I think there are better solutions than just making their itemization cheaper.

OtterlyLost1 votes

{quoted}

That is basically what I was trying to say.

Those buffs can make ADCs viable again, but I think there are better solutions than just making their itemization cheaper.

There are better solutions but they arent solutions that riot is willing to take right now. In the meantime, this is a bandaid fix that will make ADCs feel less shit to play and I'll personally take it at this point. I missed playing the game, I missed playing my champions, I missed being relevant in the game.

Whisper871 votes

I totally agree with you about game length my man. I think the emphasis on short games with a lot of action packed into 20 minutes with lots of fighting instead of team fights and set up plays is a really bad state of the game. Game length needs to be addressed, I don't think you're going to lose your audience if you add 4-5 minutes to the average game length.

But here's the thing, I don't think you want to go back to where ADC/Marksmen are a necessity (which is what happens if they are the only ones who do consistent damage to them). And scaling mages and top laners are suffering right now too, so we need global changes.

Here are some ideas that I've read/seen that are strong:

Turrets: 1) Make them all as tanky as the outers are, rather than successively squishier as you go in. 2) Increase the stacking damage from successive tower shots by another 10%, and increase the maximum stacks to 5 - also make this mechanic a 10 second champ debuff so that the same guy can't drop aggro then come back in right away.

Bounty Gold: Remove the current buffs to shut down gold, this is something that can actually increase the snowball since often a team will have one player who is doing well, then the rest of the fed opponents come shut him down after eating his teamates in lane. Don't need another snowball mechanic.

Catchup XP on kills: Implement catchup XP if you secure a kill or assist on a champion who is above the average level of all champs in the game and is higher level than you.

Revert CS/Passive gold changes: revert the changes that nerfed cs gold and increased passive gold gain

The end

AirKingNeo3 votes

uhhh these crit changes are the solve to the problem

no one wants to wait 700 fucking gold for their powerspiek because "late game fantasy" meme

yangus Beef1 votes

{quoted}

Crit ADCs can't work well currently because most games are over before they even get a chance to reach their powerspike.

Also, damage is so high that they can't survive early, even with the base stat buffs that Riot recently gave.

What Riot should be doing is to nerf early game and, possibly, reduce the overall damage. I know that this sounds cliché, but it would have been a better solution overall, not only for ADCs, but for all classes, peharps for the entire game.

Reducing the price of crit items while lowering their stats for late game actually makes it so that crit ADCs can snowball as hard as other classes currently (so it doesn't solve the snowball problem; instead it just worsens the problem) while actually making their late game worse, not that they are going to make it to late game most of time, but when they do, they are weaker than before.

Another thing that Riot should have been doing is to make towers more useful and Baron Nashor an actual boss that is difficult to take down. With those changes, ADCs would be even more necessary to take those objectives, and you wouldn't have to nerf mages for going bot.

I don't know why Riot insists in this early game meta, with useless towers and a laughable Baron. It is just so unhealthy for the game.

It's more like adc's will never be able to get away with build glass cannon again.

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