so people figured out, that you can make double tank bot lanes work.

Critmaster Garen·Jan 18, 2018·3 votes·1,861 views

how long do you think will it take this time for adc mains to send death threats to riot employees, and how long until they give in?

place your bets.

17 Comments

TèrminusJan 18, 20184 votes

If people stopped picking ADCs, I get the feeling we'll see people complain about how tanks aren't dying because people stopped playing the class that kills tanks.

ADCs themselves may not be a necessity, but DPS is, and marksmen happen to be the best DPS class. The only mages who really fill a similar role as a marksman are Azir and Ziggs, due to their enhanced ability to take turrets (Azir due to his AS bonuses and Ziggs because he's Ziggs).

Unfortunately, by nature of their design (having a lot of AoE damage), Azir and Ziggs shove lane harder than someone who can get by on just right clicks and single-target damage, so they're more susceptible to ganks.

It's a multi-layered problem with no easy solution.

ProfDrDeathJan 18, 20182 votes

Not entirely correct.

You're right that DPS is necessary, and that there are mages who can fill the DPS role of a team. Azir is an example - others are Ryze, Cassiopeia or Orianna.

However, the reason you don't see these mages bot lane is in how much of a detriment sharing XP for them is - most of them scale with champion level in aspects of their kits beyond the simple ability ranks: Azir and his soldier damage, Cass and her passive and the heal and damage of Twin Fang, Ryze and his shield's strength, Ori and her passive...

But you don't need an ADC for tower taking since they buffed the shit out of AP's tower damage. You want them to have objective damage and to force the enemy team to split their resistances.

To get a mage bot lane (and that would not have to be a DPS mage), Riot needs to specifically design their kits for the job, as they need to be able to function well while sharing XP. Without functioning even better with solo lane XP. That means: High AP ratios, low base damage increases with rank, scaling with something other than levels (ideally something that works better if more champions are around, like Cass's first reworked passive), static cooldowns/1-point wonder abilities, etc.

But yeah, there is no easy solution to broadening the spectrum of possible bot laners. Doesn't mean Riot should not try it, though - having something other than DPS from the bot lane should allow other positions to broaden in spectrum, as well (for instance, DPS top laners like Juggernauts and Skirmishers).

OurLestradeJan 18, 20182 votes

Taric/Leona duo bot's always been hilarious

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Taric/Leona duo bot's always been hilarious

it started out as a a funny curiosity that some people managed to pull off in bronze.

then there was a duo who proved they can make it work at least around mid diamond. theyve successfully done their own "from bronze to diamond" by only playing leona/taric bot lane.

today im seeing a tilterella video of a leona/nami bot lane and making it work rather well.

people are starting to experiment with non marksmen picks on bot lane again. maybe it will just be a single case of leona being strong enough to make it work, maybe it will spread to other champions.

but if the past is any indication, at some point adc mains are going to lose their shit that they have to share their lane with a non marksman in the carry role, and riot will throw the nerf hammer down after promising to look into diversifying bot lane more in the future, which of course wont ever happen.

there wasnt a single attempt by riot in the timespan of a whole year, to make mages and melee carries more viable in the duo lane, despite meddlers promises during the time bot lane ziggs was a thing. instead what happened was that suport itemization was retalored to almost exclusively synergize with marksmen. so basically exactly the opposite of what they set as official goal.

KirotheImmortalJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T18:47:26.906+0000)

it started out as a a funny curiosity that some people managed to pull off in bronze.

then there was a duo who proved they can make it work at least around mid diamond. theyve successfully done their own "from bronze to diamond" by only playing leona/taric bot lane.

today im seeing a tilterella video of a leona/nami bot lane and making it work rather well.

people are starting to experiment with non marksmen picks on bot lane again. maybe it will just be a single case of leona being strong enough to make it work, maybe it will spread to other champions.

but if the past is any indication, at some point adc mains are going to lose their shit that they have to share their lane with a non marksman in the carry role, and riot will throw the nerf hammer down after promising to look into diversifying bot lane more in the future, which of course wont ever happen.

there wasnt a single attempt by riot in the timespan of a whole year, to make mages and melee carries more viable in the duo lane, despite meddlers promises. instead what happened was that suport itemization was retalored to almost exclusively synergize with marksmen. so basically exactly the opposite of what they set as official goal.

Honestly i wana see more things other then Marksmen bot. Like azir bot or zigs again. Azir has the potential they just need to give more to mana and stop attacking mana users. Mord bot was a cool potential idea if his q gave range or of his E executed minions. but this would all make them more op in top or mid i think os their worry

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Honestly i wana see more things other then Marksmen bot. Like azir bot or zigs again. Azir has the potential they just need to give more to mana and stop attacking mana users. Mord bot was a cool potential idea if his q gave range or of his E executed minions. but this would all make them more op in top or mid i think os their worry

if those nunu buffs go through, it might become a reality.

the ap/attack speed buff on his w could make champions like azir relevant enough in bot lane with nunu as a support by his side.

also, teemo in the carry role on bot lane could actually work with nunu aswell. cant wait for adc mains to realize the shit we have to endure with him on top lane.

KirotheImmortalJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:14:07.261+0000)

if those nunu buffs go through, it might become a reality.

the ap/attack speed buff on his w could make champions like azir relevant enough in bot lane with nunu as a support by his side.

also, teemo in the carry role on bot lane could actually work with nunu aswell. cant wait for adc mains to realize the shit we have to endure with him on top lane.

that sounds amazing

AhristocatsJan 18, 20182 votes

what's the purpose of this thread?

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:20:33.451+0000)

what's the purpose of this thread?

mostly spreading awareness how its actually riot who keeps enforcing the meta, and not the player base who doesnt want to experiment with other picks.

time and time again when the discussion about champion diversity on bot lane comes up, there is always a group of people claiming, that its the player base themselves who are enforcing the marksman/support bot lane meta.

yet, ive witnissed a couple of phases over the years where players tried to experiment with other champions in the carry role, and in the end it was always riots own balance team that put a nerf hammer on any newly emerging strategy.

i clearly remember meddler a year ago mention, that he set himself as eventual goal to make other champion types than marksmen viable on bot lane, starting with certain mages as they were supposed to be the most similar and easiest to bring into a healthy state on bot lane comparably.

i dont know about you, but i havent seen the hint of an attempt to follow through with that. the entire support rework last year, that ended in the ardent censer meta seemed to be more aimed at marksmen synergy than anything else.

their itemization has been buffed aswell to allow them to power spike much sooner than they used to, which is another factor that makes it unlikely other champion types are able to compete with them on shared xp.

im also expressing my concern that in case this is another phase where a meta shift on bot lane might occur, that riot is just going to choke it in its infancy again.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:33:27.331+0000)

mostly spreading awareness how its actually riot who keeps enforcing the meta, and not the player base who doesnt want to experiment with other picks.

so it's riot's fault for enforcing the meta

but let's randomly be jerks towards adc mains , makes sense

time and time again when the discussion about champion diversity on bot lane comes up, there is always a group of people claiming, that its the player base themselves who are enforcing the marksman/support bot lane meta.

and they were right 90% of the time

there are times were other things are viable bot, and yet the community is not able to see them

yet, ive witnissed a couple of phases over the years where players tried to experiment with other champions in the carry role, and in the end it was always riots own balance team that put a nerf hammer on any newly emerging strategy.

confirming what i thought

i clearly remember meddler a year ago mention, that he set himself as eventual goal to make other champion types than marksmen viable on bot lane, starting with certain mages as they were supposed to be the most similar and easiest to bring into a healthy state on bot lane comparably.

i dont know about you, but i havent seen the hint of an attempt to follow through with that. the entire support rework last year, that ended in the ardent censer meta seemed to be more aimed at marksmen synergy than anything else.

im also expressing my concern that in case this is another phase where a meta shift on bot lane might occur, that riot is just going to choke it in its infancy again.

trippling my confirmation

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:42:59.123+0000)

so it's riot's fault for enforcing the meta

but let's randomly be jerks towards adc mains , makes sense

this is what happened the last time. its just a fact. if reminding people of that makes me a jerk, fine.

and they were right 90% of the time

there are times were other things are viable bot, and yet the community is not able to see them

you have an example for that?

AhristocatsJan 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:45:57.837+0000)

this is what happened the last time. its just a fact. if reminding people of that makes me a jerk, fine.

adc mains sent death threats to riot?

can you be real like once jesus

you have an example for that?

Yes? me as Darius i played him bot and got to master in 2017

but i was the only one playing offmeta champions, people were too busy following sheeps to realise that you could send a lot more picks bot lane

that was before riot buffed adcs

and adc mains didn't send death threat, this entire thread should be deleted from shame

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T19:53:41.645+0000)

adc mains sent death threats to riot?

can you be real like once jesus

according to ghostcrawlers blog, he received phone calls in the middle of the night, back when he responded to the marksmen situation on reddit when bot lane ziggs was a thing and he said dealing with ziggs wasnt a priority.

i have to admit, i dont know how credible the source is (though theyre claiming to quote his blog) since its difficult to find information on the incident. i just remember seeing another report at the time froma different source naming only "riot employees" receiving nightly phone calls without him being explicitly named.

unless ghostcrawler comes here personally to clear up what happened, im inclined to believe multiple sources reporting the same information. it would certainly not be the first case of game developers receiving direct threats.

Yes? me as Darius i played him bot and got to master in 2017

but i was the only one playing offmeta champions, people were too busy following sheeps to realise that you could send a lot more picks bot lane

that was before riot buffed adcs

so how is darius bot lane doing now, and when did he stop being viable?

around the same time as the support rework and the ardent meta? looks like a riot enforced meta to me.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ufEuQzoV,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T20:09:16.133+0000)

according to ghostcrawlers blog, he received phone calls in the middle of the night, back when he responded to the marksmen situation on reddit when bot lane ziggs was a thing and he said dealing with ziggs wasnt a priority.

i don't know if i should count this as relevant

if someone sent a death threat, the entire adc mains community should not be responsible just like if a single syrian suicide attack a city, not all syrians should be responsible

additionally, it's ghostcrawler i don't know if it's relevant since the dude is hated by almost everyone

i have to admit, i dont know how credible the source is (though theyre claiming to quote his blog) since its difficult to find information on the incident. i just remember seeing another report at the time froma different source naming only "riot employees" receiving nightly phone calls without him being explicitly named.

so you yourself admit that it's not even certain and yet you have the audacity to make this thread

so how is darius bot lane doing now, and when did he stop being viable?

because he got nerfed tank itemization rework nerfed bruisers adcs got buffed and now preseason gutted him

around the same time as the support rework and the ardent meta? looks like a riot enforced meta to me.

looks like you're quadrupled my confirmation

PennsJan 18, 20181 votes

fuk adc mains until fizz gets reverted imo :[

redniwediSJan 18, 20181 votes

Once the ranks below gold make it a common occurrence is my guess. I don't think that will happen, personally, but if it does that's when the threats will come in.