Urgh Sona's base movespeed reverted back to 325

RedCyclone·Feb 10, 2015·39 votes·3,765 views

c'mon riot, for sanity sakes, give her movespeed back Being so slow where you can't even make use of your "snuggle zones" seems anti logic to me

85 Comments

Pika310Feb 10, 201520 votes

Meanwhile, Nami is 2 movement tiers higher, whilst essentially having Sona's E on all 4 spells.

It Is I EmotoFeb 10, 20156 votes

Does her Q and Ult also give speed boosts? That's extremly annoying.

TarynFeb 10, 201515 votes

It does if allies are in the AoE.

It's really handy when using her ult to chase fleeing enemies. RIDE MY WAVE BOYS! ~

It Is I EmotoFeb 10, 201510 votes

meanwhile sona with sloppy 325 movement speed that only applies on her 12 second cooldown e gg riot

killd0zerFeb 10, 20153 votes

Lol good thing Sona's win rate is consistently the same or higher than Nami's, while also having DOUBLE the pick rate.

RatbertFeb 11, 20156 votes

because we can't compare raw numbers and see how one is clearly better.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

No, neither one of them is strictly better. And the numbers aren't really in your favor, seeing as Sona gives more MS at most stages of the game.

NOTE: No diminishing returns used. They both last 1.5 seconds.

Nami's passive gives between ~12%-11% (The relative % decreases when Base MS increases, inverse proportionality) and is always a flat 40.

Sona's E is 10% to an ally at Rank 1 (I won't use her selfish haste). That's **32.5-35.5 **depending on base MS. Sona's E is 20% at Rank 5, with Rank 3 Ultimate. That's 65-71 assuming no other factors. With Rank 1 ultimate, Sona's E increases to 12%, and is equal or greater from that point on. Level 6 is the break even point; that's pretty early in the game.

Sona's AP ratio is also marginally higher.

Nami get's 10%. With 100 AP that's 10 MS. With 500 AP that's 50 MS.

Sona get's 3.5%/100 AP. With 100 AP that's 11-12.5 MS. WIth 500 AP that's 57-62 MS.

This doesn't count that her selfish haste is 7%/100 AP, which is double of the ally's. 100 AP = 22 500 AP = 114

Nami has her Passive more readily available on all her abilities, but Sona can activate her speed boost at any specific time. If Nami ONLY wants to haste someone, she has to use a regular ability, which may or may not make use of the other effects. Nami get's range, Sona can haste herself for significantly more.

One might be more useful the majority of the time, but no neither is strictly better, and you're a fool if you think so.

RatbertFeb 11, 20156 votes

Taking literally one aspect of their kits and saying YEP THIS ONE'S BETTER is wrong. You didn't take into account the soft cap on ms, the horrendous range on sona's "auras" or the fact that nami has access to it with any skill at all while sona has to put a point into a skill. Quite frankly, nami can use it whenever she wants because her e is usable anytime, and if you really needed the haste, you could w too. Technically, nami has 3 times the uptime for her speed up, while sona always has to wait at most 12 seconds.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

Taking literally one aspect of their kits and saying YEP THIS ONE'S BETTER is wrong.

So I know it's a lot of words, but once you get past middle school you'll be able to read paragraphs.

No,** neither one of them is strictly better.**

One might be more useful the majority of the time, but no** neither is strictly better**, and you're a fool if you think so.

Nami get's range

Nami has her Passive more readily available on all her abilities

Like every single complain you had is literally addressed in the post.

Also it was you, not me, who said (sarcastically):

because we can't compare raw numbers and see how one is clearly better.

And then the numbers disagree, and you move to mechanics, which was also addressed.

RatbertFeb 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

So I know it's a lot of words, but once you get past middle school you'll be able to read paragraphs.

You only talked about sona's ms boost vs nami's passive. That's one aspect, where are the others?

Also, the numbers don't disagree, when you realize that power isn't the only part of the numbers. Did you take into account mana? uptime? range? There's also a post above with math that shows that in actual gameplay, it's only better mid-late game. In addition, you didn't take into account the soft cap, which hampers sona's boost more than namis.

The fact that sona's is an entire skill while nami's is a passive yet much weaker early game is shocking.

killd0zerFeb 12, 20151 votes

Did you take into account mana? uptime? range? There's also a post above with math that shows that in actual gameplay, it's only better mid-late game.

And the comparative power of those are AMBIGUOUS. That's the whole point lol.

100 MS is necessarily always better than 50 MS. 100 Range is necessarily always better than 50 range. What's better, a heal for 1000 or a heal for 500? The 1000 in all realistic situations.

Now which is better; 100 range or 100 MS? What's better, a single target heal for 1000, or an AoE heal for 500? They cannot be directly compared.

They aren't directly comparable, which was literally the conclusion to my math that you chose to ignore.

If you really want to do this unrealistic direct comparison thing, lets compare Nami and Sona's Passives. I'd take Sona's any day.

There's also a post above with math that shows that in actual gameplay

No it did quite the opposite. It picked extremely specific scenario and tried to make a general statement. That's so conspicuously terrible.

RatbertFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And the comparative power of those are AMBIGUOUS. That's the whole point lol.

100 MS is necessarily always better than 50 MS. 100 Range is necessarily always better than 50 range. What's better, a heal for 1000 or a heal for 500? The 1000 in all realistic situations.

Now which is better; 100 range or 100 MS? What's better, a single target heal for 1000, or an AoE heal for 500? They cannot be directly compared.

So it's impossible to say whether any champ is better than another if they have unique mechanics? Golly gee no wonder balancing this game is so difficult. You can easily compare aoe to single target by saying well this champ heals 1k, while this champ can heal up to 2.5k, so make the aoe either harder to land or cost something otherwise the single target is definitely worse.

Also you can compare them in practice. Would you rather have a 1 range 500 ms boost or a global range 5 ms boost? It would be nearly impossible to use the 1 range while having a global effect is much easier and more reliable. Keep in mind sona is so slow that anyone she wants to speed up would be her speed or outrange her buff radius.

They aren't directly comparable, which was literally the conclusion to my math that you chose to ignore.

Please compare the rest of the DIRECTLY COMPARABLE ASPECTS. Or explain how balancing anything is possible when there are unique mechanics which aren't directly comparable like you claim.

If you really want to do this unrealistic direct comparison thing, lets compare Nami and Sona's Passives. I'd take Sona's any day.

Except you wouldn't because you can make is so that every ~175 mana, you get an extra 200 damage, or a mini exhaust, or nami's e's slow at 550 range while nami gets a extra potentially constant t2 boots.

No it did quite the opposite. It picked extremely specific scenario and tried to make a general statement. That's so conspicuously terrible.

You did just this by assuming sona made it to late game without getting outtraded by nami and killed with right clicks. It's so specific that it assumed proper play before level 14.

killd0zerFeb 12, 20151 votes

You did just this by assuming sona made it to late game without getting outtraded by nami and killed with right clicks. It's so specific that it assumed proper play before level 14.

I listed base stats, with 100 AP (approx mid game depends on build) and hypothetical carry Sona.

Sona's haste breaks even with Nami's at level 6. That's not unrealistic. At 11 it surpasses. By 18 it's significantly higher.

This doesn't even tank into account that Sona's selfish haste is far superior, which was the original point of discussion. It scales at nearly double Nami's AP ratio. It does however, taper off, but lasts twice as long, and could hypothetically (not realistically) reach a duration of 5.5 seconds.

Gonna stop replying so this thread can fade into oblivion.

RatbertFeb 12, 20151 votes

Hypothetical carry sona, there you go that's quite an assumption

Having 100 ap mid game should never happen unless you want to die in half a second or you are so atrociously fed it would not matter.

Sona's haste only "breaks even" if you really put levels in it anyways or you went full ap sona like you could before. It's also important to note that sona now has a garbage laning because the meta is all-in supports and guess what wrecks sona?

Sona's haste tapers off an enormous amount and the duration is easily surpassed by nami casting another skill so nami can cover a larger distance over time than a petite "burst" of speed like sona, which isn't all that great.

ProfirixFeb 12, 20151 votes

Riot has said time and time again that win rate is not a good measure with which to judge the power of a champion. Sona FEELS weak. I don't know how many times the community has to say it. A champion that FEELS weak will NEVER be played and will NEVER see competitive play. There is no way around this.

killd0zerFeb 12, 20151 votes

No the reason she doesn't see competitive play is largely do to her design. She's a very simplistic champion, and has a low skill cap. This is why her win rate is higher at lower tiers. If at any point Sona is good in LCS, any random player can access most of that power, thus making her very very strong in the lower rankings. This was the major issue before her first rework, where her passive was always what her current Q does; just more damage.

Also a lot of Sona's power is "invisible" which has been one of her biggest issues for both playing as and against her.

Leona has extremely high base damage, like really super high. But it feels "ok" to pretty strong.

MinrogFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

A champion that FEELS weak will NEVER be played and will NEVER see competitive play. There is no way around this.

I disagree with this. Just because Sona feels weak to someone doesn't mean a competitive player won't find a way to utilize her if they can. But they can't because she doesn't feel weak, she just is weak.

I keep seeing (a few) pro players trying to use her and getting completely owned. I get my hopes up that she might be on a winning team when I see her picked, but she's just too heavy for even the best players in the game to win with her.

Maybe someday, but given that she can be 2 shot throughout the game and has no escapes...she's just free gold waiting to be picked up.

WullfFeb 11, 20151 votes

Not really. MS boost is not that high and last just a short while.

You make it sound like Nami is much stronger then Sona. Which she is not. Sona is just more team reliant.

Pika310Feb 11, 20158 votes

Sona's E lasts 1.5 seconds.
Nami's passive lasts 1.5 seconds.

Any more propaganda you want to pollute this thread with?

WullfFeb 11, 20151 votes

ok sorry that was careless from my side.

Still even if the movement speed boost has the same duration. It surely has not the same amount of boost. It is bit difficult to compare it as Nami gives falt value scaling with AP while Sona has precentual value that gets tronger by leveling Crescendo and also 3,5 % per 100 AP.

According to my guess Namis ms boost is stronger just early in the game.

Also ms boost from E on herself has much longer duration.

Now for Nami to give long persisting ms boost it means that she has to heal the target use E buff on it hit it with the Q and send ultimate over it. Giving up all these abilities. And additionally loosing distance herself as Q,W and R has casting animatins that she cannot perform while going.

Sona on the other hand gives stronger ms boost (later in game) while she herself gains greater distance allowing her to use her other abilites and catch up to the enemy. (crescendo, power coed from E, active items)

Sona is strong regardless wheter she has 5 more or less MS base stat.

Pika310Feb 11, 20156 votes

wheter she has 5 more or less MS base stat.

What about 10 less? Sona has 10 less MS than Nami.

As for the numbers:

With 0 AP ~

Sona - 325 x 1.1 = 357.5 MS
Nami - 325 + 40 = 365 MS

Sona - 355 x 1.1 = 390.5 MS
Nami - 355 + 40 = 395 MS

With 100 AP ~

Sona - 325 x 1.135 = 368.875 MS
Nami - 325 + 50 = 375 MS

Sona - 355 x 1.135 = 402.925 MS
Nami - 355 + 50 = 405 MS

Nami's passive is stronger than Sona's E. Math proves it. Since the numbers are so close, for consistency's sake it's best to just say the two are essentially the same with a slight margin of error.

WullfFeb 11, 20153 votes

your math is wrong.

Sonas aura ms boost scales: 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 / 14% with bonus +3,5% per 100AP and +2% every ultimate rank.

Therefore at 1 rank it is like you wrote but later in game the difference is much biger.

(lets take 325 ms as base value)

0 AP, rank 0 crescendo

rank 1: 325 x 1,1 0 = 357,5 rank 2: 325 x 1,11 = 360,75 rank 3: 325 x 1,12 = 364 rank 4: 325 x 1,13 = 367,25 rank 5: 325 x 1,14 = 370,5

100 AP, rank 0 crescendo

rank 1: 325 x 1,135 = 368,875 rank 2: 325 x 1,145 = 372,125 rank 3: 325 x 1,155 = 375,375 rank 4: 325 x 1,165 = 378,625 rank 5: 325 x 1,175 = 381,875

100 AP, rank 3 crescendo

rank 1: 325 x 1,195 = 388,375 rank 2: 325 x 1,205 = 391,625 rank 3: 325 x 1,215 = 394,875 rank 4: 325 x 1,225 = 398,125 rank 5: 325 x 1,235 = 401,375

Now nami has flat 40 ms plus 0,1 ratio.

that means 50 ms bonus at 100AP

So maximum at 100 AP with base ms 325 that Sona can give is: 76 While Nami: 50. In this case by lvl 6 Sona has stronger ms boost then Nami.

Sona's E is stronger than Nami's passive. Maths proves it.

Pika310Feb 11, 20155 votes

Therefore at 1 rank it is like you wrote but later in game the difference is much biger.

"Later" being levels 14+. No sane person would ever put more than 1 point in Sona's current E. Extra points are less useful than before the 4.13 nerfs.

Sona's E is stronger than Nami's passive. Maths proves it.

If you actually believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

"Later" being levels 14+.

Have you fucking even played this champion?

Sona get's +2% MS per rank of her ult. At level 6 it's 12%, which is almost exactly the same as Nami's.

It only goes high up past that point. You did possible the single most biased math I've seen in a long time.

You're so full of shit it hurts.

If you actually believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

But his math was literally correct. Your math was skewed for an incredibly specific scenario.

Pika310Feb 11, 20154 votes

Have you fucking even played this champion?

I started playing League solely to play Sona. I was a Sona main throughout season 3. I have several hundred games on her and she remains my most played champion in my overall history of playing this game.

So the short answer is "yes."

You on the other hand, seem to deem it's necessary to vulgarly harass people verbally, just because you've been disproved. Your excessive use of profanity does no more than discredit yourself.

AbominateFeb 10, 201512 votes

I just don't understand why they feel sona would be too mobile with her E ans a higher base MS when abilities like pounce and martial pose exist

Circuit BearFeb 10, 20157 votes

Cause Thresh/Leona/Blitz need to be able to hit her at all times.

Killer X 12Feb 10, 20159 votes

325 feels terrible on any champion. It sucks to have tier 2 boots but still only move at 370.

AnOstrichWithPMSFeb 11, 20157 votes

sona has an e?

AsutarottoFeb 10, 20156 votes

~~Well this change made me hesitate to buy the Skin.~~

Random nerf to the fun support, because why play her when you have better options?

Edit: Nvm only a ''Bug''. Good job Riot trying to get sona attention so much!

Pika310Feb 11, 20154 votes

While we considered shipping 5.3 with Sona disabled,

Sounds to me Riot is hinting they're eventually going to remove Sona from the game. It's already clear the "balance" and "rework" teams don't want her to exist.

ProfirixFeb 12, 20151 votes

I am so torn. I can't express how much I LOVE this skin. Easily the best skin ever made BY FAR. But if I have to basically forfeit the game in order to listen to good music and enjoy aesthetics, its just not worth it....

This skin is the tangible expression of form over function.

killd0zerFeb 10, 20153 votes

Being so slow where you can't even make use of your "snuggle zones" seems anti logic to me

redniwediSFeb 10, 201519 votes

If her E didn't also speed up the allies that are faster than her this might make sense.

killd0zerFeb 10, 20153 votes

...the speed boost area is the same as her Q and W ranges

if you speed boosted them, you're in range to use Q or W...

redniwediSFeb 10, 20159 votes

That's not particularly helpful while your team is on the move.

killd0zerFeb 10, 20152 votes

Good thing her E gives herself more MS, and lasts twice as long.

Keep trying to save face.

redniwediSFeb 11, 20157 votes

Your facts seem fine, but if they were then it would also work in practice. Figure that half out and things will be different.

Sona has difficulty keeping up with allies from many different team comps without building heavy move speed, even with her E.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

Your facts seem fine, but if they were then it would also work in practice. Figure that half out and things will be different.

My facts are indeed right, and they do work in practice. Hence Sona's solid ~52% win rate and ~12% pick rate. Mind you, this is after her "crippling" nerfs.

redniwediSFeb 11, 20157 votes

Sorry, but win and pick rates don't actually say anything about whether her base movement speed should be nerfed or not. If you're going to continue giving facts at least make sure they fit.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

They do. They fit. Sona consistently wins games. She's picked enough to have a sufficient sample size. The majority of players can play Sona, and have a good shot of winning a game.

I didn't say anything about power level. I didn't say anything about design. I didn't say anything about OP or UP

You said she doesn't work in practice. I said she does, and justified it with the fact that a very large number of people play Sona, and win games.

Hell, I can tell you from anecdotal experience that she most certainly can get into Aura range. The biggest thing that stops her is proximity to enemies; not being unable to keep up.

redniwediSFeb 11, 20156 votes

I'm only talking about her move speed, specifically her base move speed, and how it effects her up until the later half of the mid game. Win and pick rates effect whether she gets a nerf or not, however they do not typically directly effect what is nerfed. That is why I don't think it's particularly relevant.

While her E, when scaled, does help it's typically the least useful until the later half of the game. She is a support who offers little offensive pressure on her own, so unlike someone like Blitz if her ADC is not great she cannot pressure the enemy ADC enough to make up the difference. From what I've seen this leads to having to rush damage items, or items that assist the ADC, which postpones other purchases like upgraded boots.

I don't have a problem with this because I play her with a tanky/move speed build, but almost every Sona I see that is not from my group of friends seems to have this problem. Perhaps I'm just getting to see the bad half of Sona players.

And for the love of all that is good, will people stop downvoting one side during a discussion? There's always two sides, no need to downvote if someone's clearly not being an idiot.

Sona PingFeb 11, 20159 votes

League of Legends, Tip of the Day!

Tip: Win Rates and Pick Rates do not mean anything and mean even less to the Champion's statistics.

Isn't that right, buddy? LeeSin : Find your center.

killd0zerFeb 11, 20151 votes

Where did I assert her power? Never said Sona is OP. I didn't say Sona needs nerfs.

I said Sona works in practice, represented by the fact that people play her, a lot mind you, and they win.

The sample size is too high to be skewed by Sona mains. It's actually pretty concrete numbers that Sona is functioning perfectly fine.

Sona PingFeb 11, 20157 votes

"Where did I assert her power? Never said Sona is OP. I didn't say Sona needs nerfs." I never even implied that you did. What I was addressing was this: "represented by [Pick Rates and Win Rates]"

It does not. You are saying that Pick Rates and Win Rates are evidence. They are not. It's outside information and unrelated to her statistics, kit or how she works. There is no reasonable link between them and anything else that'll allow it to be used as evidence of anything.

RedCycloneFeb 10, 201520 votes

{quoted}

E

does nothing earlygame for Sona other then exhaust her mana pool

HupsisFeb 10, 20152 votes

Maybe this change will encourage some Sona players to buy the ancient coin instead of spellthief's edge...

RedCycloneFeb 11, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Maybe this change will encourage some Sona players to buy the ancient coin instead of spellthief's edge...

No, just no, this isn't even excuse worthy

It's like lowing all Varus's AD Ratios and saying "IT WILL ENCOURAGE HIM TO BUILD AP NOW"

Spellthief was practically made for Sona, much like ad ratios were made for Varus

Zone of EndlessFeb 11, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Maybe this change will encourage some Sona players to buy the ancient coin instead of spellthief's edge...

No. You're asking to die if you're going ancient coin on Sona. She will do absolutely nothing in lane with ancient coin. She won't be able to trade because she will do way less dmg than with spellthief, and with the recent nerf you will tickle the enemy at best. Those 5 HP per minion death isn't gonna help you survive a burst from two AA.

Riot turned her into a snuggle zone bot instead of Aura bot and they expect Sona players utilize those snuggle zone with 325 movement speed? People don't realize how much that 5 make a huge difference in the early phases of the game.

And with the damage reduction she can't even trade with anyone anymore. She does little damage while being super squishy. You will lose a level 1 trade against a thresh with E and risk being knocked back into the enemy or even a Janna while taking massive damage in return for your low base health. And her E is still just as useless. I never find myself using it other than for the E passive for chasing. W cost a huge chunk of mana while providing little amount of heal. Pressing W just once pre 6 will limit your option in lane to just sitting still and avoiding pokes while barely shielding anything with a crap shield and heal.

edit: ancient coin is also a horrible start for any support. the sustain provided is near useless and doesn't give any dmg stats or tankiness like spellthief and relic

BeatzBoyFTWFeb 11, 20151 votes

Spellthief is actually more recommended than Ancient Coin, since you can heal yourself & your ally so the self health regeneration isn't so dependable, and you have more AP for extra healing & poking damage.