Boards›Gameplay

Kass's problem is in his Q; not his ult

thinking man··28 votes·3,318 views

I realize this is going to sound weird as hell because the first thing people think of when they think of Kassadin, they think of some purple freak materializing out of nowhere, one-shotting them, then materializing in the distance while making love to the wife of the now-deceased, but this problem mainly comes from his Q.

This is because of what his Q is. It isn't necessarily bad that his Q is a damaging point-and-click spell, but his Q is extremely problematic, both in lane and late-game because of the raw power.

Firstly, his Q is one of the best bullying tools. Kassadin's mana problems are pretty minor unless you suck at using his ult, so he's going to spam Q on you for the entire lane while trying to sustain it with W. This not only makes part of your damage to him useless, it also deals a decent chunk to you. It is the epitome of anti-magic trading tools, and is just plain stupid to play against.

Now the reason why his Q is stupid late-game is actually partially a problem with his E as well. Since so much of his burst is put into these two abilities, a Kassadin can essentially play like a ranged champion until he is ready to commit and one-shot somebody. A normal teamfight where you aren't oppressively ahead or chasing will involve you using your R to get into QE range and then just spamming the shit out of QE until your desired target dies from it, or is slowed enough to die from a teammate. Because of this, his risk isn't that high since he'll still threaten you greatly from a long range without putting himself to any real risk.

If Riot really wants a solution to the problem, they need to rework his kit to basically get rid of his current Q and remove some of the damage emphasis from his E, but if they want a faster, less permanent solution, they can just gut his Q and then buff the shit out of his W/ult damage so that he actually has to commit to a fight to be a threat.

tl;dr Kassadin's Q/E combo makes it too easy for him to play as a ranged champion with zero risk and this needs to be nerfed moreso than his ult if Riot wants to deal with him

also nerf Kalista, thanks

I also realize that you don't deal that much damage just by spamming Q/E, but it's an option for if you can't go in.

54 Comments

MrPerson106 votes

No offense meant here but; Do you not think Kass' Q was nerfed enough when they took the silence out? His Q having a shield is also a huge part of him sustaining in lane since he has no inherent sustain - the shield does as much a job as you can expect.

Just some food for thought.

thinking man3 votes

{quoted}

No offense meant here but; Do you not think Kass' Q was nerfed enough when they took the silence out? His Q having a shield is also a huge part of him sustaining in lane since he has no inherent sustain - the shield does as much a job as you can expect.

Just some food for thought.

His Q is definitely worse as an ability late-game, but other than that, the fact that it's a high-damage point and click nuke with a shield that makes him outtrade most mages is a problem.

It's more broken in lane in a large number of situations, but it's no longer as much of a generally broken ability.

MrPerson101 votes

Late-game, agreed - it's monstrous to deal with. His early game would suffer way too much without it though. Also he's largely immobile for an assassin until 6, another relatively large laning downfall

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

Late-game, agreed - it's monstrous to deal with. His early game would suffer way too much without it though. Also he's largely immobile for an assassin until 6, another relatively large laning downfall

He should have a really weak laning phase because you can win a lot of mage matchups by just playing aggro at six.

His W was also a buff to his lane since you get 20 extra AD for last hitting and an AA reset in case you were close to missing one.

His late-game should be an uphill struggle; getting to 6 should be an uphill struggle.

MrPerson101 votes

Should, but unfortunately doesn't. He's a massive late-game presence that needs to be dealt with, but I feel like nerfing his Q too hard will totally take him right back out of viability, especially after such a short window of pro play.

I absolutely abhor the fact that by 35 minutes in most matches (provided he did at least decently) he's deleting carries with a single, simple combo - so to that effect, I'm with you. I just don't think the Q is the place to start on him other than potentially nerfing the damage without touching the shield.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Should, but unfortunately doesn't. He's a massive late-game presence that needs to be dealt with, but I feel like nerfing his Q too hard will totally take him right back out of viability, especially after such a short window of pro play.

I absolutely abhor the fact that by 35 minutes in most matches (provided he did at least decently) he's deleting carries with a single, simple combo - so to that effect, I'm with you. I just don't think the Q is the place to start on him other than potentially nerfing the damage without touching the shield.

He can't delete somebody with just QE and needs to actually W them to do that, but his Q is a major problem and I think it should be reworked into a utility non-damaging spell, maybe a shield with a silence on it.

MrPerson101 votes

By combo I meant R/Q/W/E or R/Q/E/W as some seem to prefer.

Only problem I see with making it a utility only spell - he no longer has any lane harass, little power and no gap close pre-6, becomes too weak and totally unusable due to immobility. And that would also mean Riot admitting they made a mistake by taking away his Q silence.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

By combo I meant R/Q/W/E or R/Q/E/W as some seem to prefer.

Only problem I see with making it a utility only spell - he no longer has any lane harass, little power and no gap close pre-6, becomes too weak and totally unusable due to immobility. And that would also mean Riot admitting they made a mistake by taking away his Q silence.

No, they wouldn't admit a mistake in taking away his Q silence because his Q still did damage back then.

They'd be admitting a mistake in trying to keep his Q as a point-and-click damaging ability, which is a problem.

Nyaruko Chan3 votes

You are a special form of stupid arent you? Yes lets just literally remove the damage from an ability because its a point and click. I bet your one of those people who think there should only be skill shots and thats it right? Kass has a pathetic laning phase and isnt even a thing until his Rod of Ages has been fully stacked. Which counting the amount of time it takes to get that plus the extra 10 minutes it takes to get the thing fully stacked lets see...

That is about 20 to 25 minutes or so before hes even semi relevant? And even then he still needs other items to really start becoming any real threat. Also Kass's Q is pathetically easy to deal with. You want a good tip to make that useless? The moment you see somebody pick a Kass pick a yasou, zed, Ezreal, or Jayce.

There you go you just made his Q pointless. As it only stops Magic damage. Seriously Kass is so easy to counter pick and if you let a Kass get to late late game to be relevant then you deserved to be punished for it anyways. You have more then enough time to either win the game or amass such a large gold lead over the other team that his late game wont ever actually matter. Its just like dealing with pre-reworked Tristana.

Also, learn how to play against Kass and stop complaining and screaming for unneeded nerfs.

thinking man2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kirito x Silica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ubdgwuyq,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-24T20:44:58.185+0000)

You are a special form of stupid arent you? Yes lets just literally remove the damage from an ability because its a point and click. I bet your one of those people who think there should only be skill shots and thats it right? Kass has a pathetic laning phase and isnt even a thing until his Rod of Ages has been fully stacked. Which counting the amount of time it takes to get that plus the extra 10 minutes it takes to get the thing fully stacked lets see...

That is about 20 to 25 minutes or so before hes even semi relevant? And even then he still needs other items to really start becoming any real threat. Also Kass's Q is pathetically easy to deal with. You want a good tip to make that useless? The moment you see somebody pick a Kass pick a yasou, zed, Ezreal, or Jayce.

There you go you just made his Q pointless. As it only stops Magic damage. Seriously Kass is so easy to counter pick and if you let a Kass get to late late game to be relevant then you deserved to be punished for it anyways. You have more then enough time to either win the game or amass such a large gold lead over the other team that his late game wont ever actually matter. Its just like dealing with pre-reworked Tristana.

Also, learn how to play against Kass and stop complaining and screaming for unneeded nerfs.

We are removing the damage from it because it makes him too strong in situations where he shouldn't be strong (btw his lane is really strong against most mages unless they shove him uber hard) and the ability itself is just too strong. It doesn't have to stay as just a magic damage shield; it can be a full shield. It just needs to be changed in some way because the damage is what makes him so frustrating to play against.

Also I main Kassadin. I'm just trying to give ways for Riot to nerf him without nerfing his ult since they clearly want to.

Nyaruko Chan2 votes

Your literally saying I dont like playing against him. So remove the ability so I can stomp him in lane repeatedly and feel good about myself. His Q is one of his only real forms of trading in lane. His E requires stacks and has a short range and his W is an auto attack modifier. Removing the damage on his Q would literally make him unable to even make it out of laning phase alive.

Seriously stop complaining about an ability that isnt even that good. How his Q any different from Annie's Q or Ryze's Q? It gives him a shield that only absorbs magic damage? Boy that sure is useful when they are auto attacking me or the adc is melting me.

Ryze's Q hits harder. Annie's Q is extremely easy to abuse because of its passive effect and does as much damage if not more. Like Kass's Q is literally no different then a lot of other point and click abilities aside from the crappy shield. Stop complaining about a champ that doesnt need complaining about.

Kass is extremely easy to manage. You just have to know what your doing. Something a lot of people on here dont want to have to do as it requires actually learning how to get better. They would instead rather complain and bitch and moan about a champ being op that simply isnt.

Kass takes soooooo long to ever get to a point to where he can even hope to carry games and if he gets shut down even a little that time is extended by an even larger amount. Literally just have your jungler gank him pre-six and kill him or bully him out of lane over and over. Slowing him down even a little makes him a non-factor. If you and your team are stupid enough to let a game drag on to the point where Kass is actually able to one shot people you deserve to lose the game.

Jamnon1 votes

Ok you had some excellent points here:

  1. Kass has a pathetic laning phase and isnt even a thing until his Rod of Ages has been fully stacked. That is about 20 to 25 minutes or so before hes even semi relevant?

  2. He can be counter-picked: "You want a good tip to make that useless?" I do not think this is a good solution for the health of the game, but a functional one which has practical merit. I digress.

  3. His Q "only stops Magic damage."

However you distract from these excellent points by dragging the OP with ad hominem style insults claiming that he:

  1. Is stupid. (OP's intelligence has no effect on the actual kit of Kass, but thanks for that nostalgic trip back to the third grade).
  2. "I bet your one of those people" The OP's play style is unnecessary and irrelevant to Kass's kit. Him preferring Kass makes no difference than him not preferring Kass.
  3. "you just made his Q pointless" Again with the ad hominem. The only thing, technically, with no point would be an ability which literally does nothing.
thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

Ok you had some excellent points here:

  1. Kass has a pathetic laning phase and isnt even a thing until his Rod of Ages has been fully stacked. That is about 20 to 25 minutes or so before hes even semi relevant?

  2. He can be counter-picked: "You want a good tip to make that useless?" I do not think this is a good solution for the health of the game, but a functional one which has practical merit. I digress.

  3. His Q "only stops Magic damage."

However you distract from these excellent points by dragging the OP with ad hominem style insults claiming that he:

  1. Is stupid. (OP's intelligence has no effect on the actual kit of Kass, but thanks for that nostalgic trip back to the third grade).
  2. "I bet your one of those people" The OP's play style is unnecessary and irrelevant to Kass's kit. Him preferring Kass makes no difference than him not preferring Kass.
  3. "you just made his Q pointless" Again with the ad hominem. The only thing, technically, with no point would be an ability which literally does nothing.

Kassadin's laning phase is actually surprisingly good, which is a problem, once again, from the Q.

He wins lane against most mages.

CuII The Meek1 votes

Downvoted for the idiocy of your name. Obviously its kirito x Asuna. silica is a little bitch.

Khristophoros1 votes

His laning is actually pretty good because Q doesn't pull minion aggro so it's better for trading than a basic attack. Thanks to his W he can sustain mana to trade with Q every cooldown. A ranged champion will take a lot of minion damage if they try to put real pressure on him.

N30NP4NDA2 votes

{quoted}

His Q is definitely worse as an ability late-game, but other than that, the fact that it's a high-damage point and click nuke with a shield that makes him outtrade most mages is a problem.

It's more broken in lane in a large number of situations, but it's no longer as much of a generally broken ability.

It's not even high damage dude, 70% scaling isn't high.

thinking man6 votes

{quoted}

It's not even high damage dude, 70% scaling isn't high.

70% scaling is pretty high for a point and click spell.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

It's not even high damage dude, 70% scaling isn't high.

It is very high for a targeted ability you can spam in lane every 9 seconds without pulling minion aggro on a kit with easy mana sustain. It also has a generous cast range.

His AP ratios are not strong in terms of a single rotation. They are strong in terms of the frequency at which he's able to use them.

Orbv1 votes

It's .05 less than a Lux Ult It's .05 less than Kennen skillshot shuriken

It's the same as a Gragas Ult It's the same as a Heimerdinger ultimate cannon laser

Brand doesn't even have a ratio that high. Galio doesn't even have a ratio as high.

There are a good amount of mids with smaller ratios. 70% ratio is high. And Kass gets it on 3 of his abilities.

Vouge3 votes

I feel like nearly halving his ultimate is way too much of a nerf, he simply isn't tank enough to get in, out, or escape with a range that low. Ruining the core element of a champ just is too far. I am a huge fan of the game, just bought Kass a few weeks ago, and now, I fell like it was a worthless purchase. But whatever, hopefully you guys will change your minds.

Mandang03 votes

I know this is gonna sound harsh, but it's obvious the problem is his mobility.

Ask ANYONE what their problem with Kass is, and they're going to answer that he's too slippery/omnipresent/bursty or some variant. Even the last one on that list is partially to blame on his mobility (easy to get in range when you have riftwalk), and the other 2 are only explained by riftwalk (or maybe Zhonya's).

Viktor's Q is also a shield-granting bullying tool, but no one's complaining about Viktor. Likewise, Riot's been trying to nerf Kass for the past year+ without hitting his "core identity", and it hasn't worked... that's why I think they're still hitting it now, despite talking in the past about not wanting to do it.

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

I know this is gonna sound harsh, but it's obvious the problem is his mobility.

Ask ANYONE what their problem with Kass is, and they're going to answer that he's too slippery/omnipresent/bursty or some variant. Even the last one on that list is partially to blame on his mobility (easy to get in range when you have riftwalk), and the other 2 are only explained by riftwalk (or maybe Zhonya's).

Viktor's Q is also a shield-granting bullying tool, but no one's complaining about Viktor. Likewise, Riot's been trying to nerf Kass for the past year+ without hitting his "core identity", and it hasn't worked... that's why I think they're still hitting it now, despite talking in the past about not wanting to do it.

It is the obvious answer, but the mobility is just a means of enabling the burst.

If you removed his burst and gave him sustained damage instead, probably through W changes so that he AAs, he wouldn't be complained about nearly as much.

Jamnon2 votes

Not to mention other champs are more mobile and considered balanced...

Condottiero3 votes

How about removing the shield and giving him his silence back?

The silence could be for a very short duration e.g. 1 second at max rank. Additionally, it would be more "thematically fitting" because his entire voiceover revolves around the idea of silencing.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

How about removing the shield and giving him his silence back?

The silence could be for a very short duration e.g. 1 second at max rank. Additionally, it would be more "thematically fitting" because his entire voiceover revolves around the idea of silencing.

I'd say the damage on the Q itself is toxic.

Condottiero1 votes

{quoted}

I'd say the damage on the Q itself is toxic.

Is it because it's a targeted ability and you can't "dash away" to dodge the damage?

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

Is it because it's a targeted ability and you can't "dash away" to dodge the damage?

No.

It's because it is extremely high damage from range.

He shouldn't have a 1.4 AP ratio at range with his Q/E.

BetaDude401 votes

The range on both those abilities aren't very impressive. He has to use his ult to position himself to use them, otherwise they're not going to hit very often

YouLostMe1 votes

1 second silence was on talon's gap-closer and Riot is fairly adamant about removing that. I don't think it should come back in any iteration for Kass.

TheKingDodo3 votes

Mobility creeping clearly isn't an issue. since riot's perfectly fine with Nidalee

Visigoth2 votes

also nerf Kalista

+1

demoniclich22 votes

Wow. This is why Kass keeps getting nerfed. Kaellrus, the fact that you request his ONLY damaging spell gets nerfed clearly shows you know nothing of Kass. Let me break it down for you.

  1. Laning phase is rough because he's a melee in a ranged world. His Q does little damage and is comparable to Veigar's, Annie's, Cass's (including the poison damage), Lux's (crazy range comparably), etc. etc. the list goes on. And that's not including Talon, Zedd, and other AD mids. Anyone who can put a spell on someone or over an area where he has to go to get minion kills has equal ground. The shield is a joke RIOT through in there so they could fall back on something to make the huge nerf seem less so.

  2. If you get bullied by Kass in early game, shameful. He takes FOREVER to ramp up to do half of someone's health, let alone burst down an ADC/APC solo. All he has is peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, jump in to kill and hope not to get cc'd to death. Late game, Kass can only do 60-80% of someone's hp. If you don't have anything as an ADC/APC to cc Kass or health/MR to live through, you truly deserve to be killed. Kass is one of the weakest assassins in game sadly.

  3. Jamnon, you could have just said the guy was rude. He was right, but rude.

  4. Kass has no sustain with his W. 4% even up to a whopping 8% at max rank can't make up for the cost of his spells. Q (rank 1) is 70 mana. 4% of missing is 2.8 mana. BIG recovery right? E (rank 1) is 80 mana. 4% of that is 3.2. WOH crazy recovery... Of his 348 base mana pool, he has huge costs and no recovery. If he can sustain against you, you are giving him lane.

I'd say more but I already posted my response to mobility a few minutes ago. Kaellrus, learn to play, then get a main since you don't know what a main is (or you wouldn't be asking for more nerfs to a nearly totaled champ), then, after another 2 years, voice your opinions. You might gain some insight into mechanics.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Wow. This is why Kass keeps getting nerfed. Kaellrus, the fact that you request his ONLY damaging spell gets nerfed clearly shows you know nothing of Kass. Let me break it down for you.

  1. Laning phase is rough because he's a melee in a ranged world. His Q does little damage and is comparable to Veigar's, Annie's, Cass's (including the poison damage), Lux's (crazy range comparably), etc. etc. the list goes on. And that's not including Talon, Zedd, and other AD mids. Anyone who can put a spell on someone or over an area where he has to go to get minion kills has equal ground. The shield is a joke RIOT through in there so they could fall back on something to make the huge nerf seem less so.

  2. If you get bullied by Kass in early game, shameful. He takes FOREVER to ramp up to do half of someone's health, let alone burst down an ADC/APC solo. All he has is peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, jump in to kill and hope not to get cc'd to death. Late game, Kass can only do 60-80% of someone's hp. If you don't have anything as an ADC/APC to cc Kass or health/MR to live through, you truly deserve to be killed. Kass is one of the weakest assassins in game sadly.

  3. Jamnon, you could have just said the guy was rude. He was right, but rude.

  4. Kass has no sustain with his W. 4% even up to a whopping 8% at max rank can't make up for the cost of his spells. Q (rank 1) is 70 mana. 4% of missing is 2.8 mana. BIG recovery right? E (rank 1) is 80 mana. 4% of that is 3.2. WOH crazy recovery... Of his 348 base mana pool, he has huge costs and no recovery. If he can sustain against you, you are giving him lane.

I'd say more but I already posted my response to mobility a few minutes ago. Kaellrus, learn to play, then get a main since you don't know what a main is (or you wouldn't be asking for more nerfs to a nearly totaled champ), then, after another 2 years, voice your opinions. You might gain some insight into mechanics.

I want to avert Kass getting more nerfs if they hit the problem. They can even revert some.

You clearly don't play Kass much if you believe that he can't bully mages. The only one that I reliably have issues with is Ori. While his mana sustain isn't much on minions, a combination of Flask and trading will keep you up. Take it from somebody that has laned almost everything on him, you beat most mages.

also, his damage does take some time to ramp up, but if you really want to kill something, you'll land the ult which does do a lot of damage.

demoniclich23 votes

Kass has been my main for 4 years. There was a time when his W would do Armor Pen and you could run him AD bruiser instead of AP (which I'm bringing back RIOT). Kass can bully. But his short range on his spells means EVERY OTHER mage can hit him first and more. And they can auto attack when he comes in pre-lvl6 and when he walks away. Excluding minion agro (hopefully they were smart enough to clear some minions before AA). I love playing against Kass because I have met 1 other person in 4 years who can play him almost as well as I. I tear everyone else up because I know his weaknesses. Playing each champ against him once doesn't mean you have tried everything against him.

LOLZ. You waste money on flasks for him.

His damage takes 20-30 minutes to really ramp up. Assuming he gets kills and a good number of them. Name one other character that needs that long before they are viable in a team fight, or an assassin moreso who needs that long. Hint: there isn't one.

If you want to just flatly complain because you can't handle fighting against him, find a psychitrist, a pet, or a rock.

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

Kass has been my main for 4 years. There was a time when his W would do Armor Pen and you could run him AD bruiser instead of AP (which I'm bringing back RIOT). Kass can bully. But his short range on his spells means EVERY OTHER mage can hit him first and more. And they can auto attack when he comes in pre-lvl6 and when he walks away. Excluding minion agro (hopefully they were smart enough to clear some minions before AA). I love playing against Kass because I have met 1 other person in 4 years who can play him almost as well as I. I tear everyone else up because I know his weaknesses. Playing each champ against him once doesn't mean you have tried everything against him.

LOLZ. You waste money on flasks for him.

His damage takes 20-30 minutes to really ramp up. Assuming he gets kills and a good number of them. Name one other character that needs that long before they are viable in a team fight, or an assassin moreso who needs that long. Hint: there isn't one.

If you want to just flatly complain because you can't handle fighting against him, find a psychitrist, a pet, or a rock.

Kassadin's Q shield is still instant, and it's really strong in lane. You clearly aren't the best at playing him if I can consistently do well in almost every single mage matchup while you think he can be bullied by everything. You wouldn't be auto attacked nearly as much if you knew how to lane. There are places to stand that will keep you out of AA range while keeping you near minions, you just have to kind of "feel" for it. I don't really want Kass nerfed too much, but Riot and a lot of people clearly do, so I'm trying to find a way for them to fix problems with him without just nerfing everything.

YouLostMe1 votes

LOLZ. You waste money on flasks for him

Oh dear...

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

I still like the idea behind his W, even if it is broken as hell

+1 nerf Kalista

Tengrichan1 votes

Well if it's gonna be reworked i think it should have some inreaction with his E. Anyway here is my rework i thought out long ago.

Base movement speed has been increased to 350 from 340.

Void Stone(passive): Kassadin takes 15% reduced magic damage and ignores unit collision. No change here. Added the passive part from the old Nether Blade: Kassadin's basic attacks deal 20 (+0.1 AP) bonus magic damage on-hit.

Q is unchanged.

Riftwalk(W) has the same function but now has scaling base magic dmg and some AP ratio,increased cooldown,etc. This will allow Kassadin to keep the mobility but greatly reduces his roaming potential.

Details: COST: 30/40/50/60/70 mana 70/100/130/160/190 + (0.4 AP). Range is still 700. However will deal dmg to enemy units within a 300 range upon arrival instead the current 150.(This is for the synergy with Nether Blade's new range.) Cooldown is 12/11/10/9/8 sec. RESETS ONLY ON KILL. Deals 50% dmg to minions to prevent too much farm potential and split push ability. Mana restore is 4/5/6/7/8% of his missing mana if it hits an enemy unit and 20/25/30/35/40% if it hits an enemy champion(the same amount as the old nether blade).It's not additive so the percents won't add up.Prioritizes champions.So if you hit a minion and and an enemy champion with lvl1 it will restore only 20% of the missing mana.Hitting more champions won't restore more mana either. The dmg is kept low because of the main purpose of this ability is utility and not dmg!

Force Pulse (E): Damage increased to 80 / 115 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 0.7 AP) from 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180 (+ 0.7 AP). No changes here on the CC part.

New ultimate is Nether Blade(R): Upon activating the ability Kassadin's next basic attack will gain increased magic dmg and range.

Details: COST: 300/500/700 mana. Kassadin's next basic attack in the next 5 seconds will deal an additional 150/250/350 (+0.2.AP) (+2% maximum mana) magic dmg and will have a 300 range. Cooldown is 100/90/80 sec. Nothing too fancy here.This is his new single target assassination tool.While the spell is active Kassadin's blade increases in range so it's more clear visually.

Reasons on some of the changes: Why no reset on assissts on Riftwalk? Because of his new ulti and his increased single target dmg output. Why so much mana cost on ulti? To restrict his combo rotation somewhat.So the combo would start with R then quick followup with Q and E.So you can gain back a nice amount of mana.Else even if you reset the cd on W you may run out of mana because you started the combo with W and not R. Of course when you have large mana pool this becomes a less problem.

These changes shift his power into more single target dmg while trying to keep his mobility what defines Kassadin. However the Kassadin player has a short timeframe to use his ultimate else his dmg output greatly reduces also he might end up dead because of the badly used riftwalk. So the enemy has a lot of chance to punish but Kassadin has the potential to quickly erase the high priority target and get out alive. Also he doesn't falls flat in laning phase either if played correctly.

Numbers are placeholders.Dmg,manacosts,cooldowns,etc. Just tried to illustrate how the power is shifted in his kit and how his mobility still there.

Thoughts?

With these changes his Q could actually remain imo.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Well if it's gonna be reworked i think it should have some inreaction with his E. Anyway here is my rework i thought out long ago.

Base movement speed has been increased to 350 from 340.

Void Stone(passive): Kassadin takes 15% reduced magic damage and ignores unit collision. No change here. Added the passive part from the old Nether Blade: Kassadin's basic attacks deal 20 (+0.1 AP) bonus magic damage on-hit.

Q is unchanged.

Riftwalk(W) has the same function but now has scaling base magic dmg and some AP ratio,increased cooldown,etc. This will allow Kassadin to keep the mobility but greatly reduces his roaming potential.

Details: COST: 30/40/50/60/70 mana 70/100/130/160/190 + (0.4 AP). Range is still 700. However will deal dmg to enemy units within a 300 range upon arrival instead the current 150.(This is for the synergy with Nether Blade's new range.) Cooldown is 12/11/10/9/8 sec. RESETS ONLY ON KILL. Deals 50% dmg to minions to prevent too much farm potential and split push ability. Mana restore is 4/5/6/7/8% of his missing mana if it hits an enemy unit and 20/25/30/35/40% if it hits an enemy champion(the same amount as the old nether blade).It's not additive so the percents won't add up.Prioritizes champions.So if you hit a minion and and an enemy champion with lvl1 it will restore only 20% of the missing mana.Hitting more champions won't restore more mana either. The dmg is kept low because of the main purpose of this ability is utility and not dmg!

Force Pulse (E): Damage increased to 80 / 115 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 0.7 AP) from 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180 (+ 0.7 AP). No changes here on the CC part.

New ultimate is Nether Blade(R): Upon activating the ability Kassadin's next basic attack will gain increased magic dmg and range.

Details: COST: 300/500/700 mana. Kassadin's next basic attack in the next 5 seconds will deal an additional 150/250/350 (+0.2.AP) (+2% maximum mana) magic dmg and will have a 300 range. Cooldown is 100/90/80 sec. Nothing too fancy here.This is his new single target assassination tool.While the spell is active Kassadin's blade increases in range so it's more clear visually.

Reasons on some of the changes: Why no reset on assissts on Riftwalk? Because of his new ulti and his increased single target dmg output. Why so much mana cost on ulti? To restrict his combo rotation somewhat.So the combo would start with R then quick followup with Q and E.So you can gain back a nice amount of mana.Else even if you reset the cd on W you may run out of mana because you started the combo with W and not R. Of course when you have large mana pool this becomes a less problem.

These changes shift his power into more single target dmg while trying to keep his mobility what defines Kassadin. However the Kassadin player has a short timeframe to use his ultimate else his dmg output greatly reduces also he might end up dead because of the badly used riftwalk. So the enemy has a lot of chance to punish but Kassadin has the potential to quickly erase the high priority target and get out alive. Also he doesn't falls flat in laning phase either if played correctly.

Numbers are placeholders.Dmg,manacosts,cooldowns,etc. Just tried to illustrate how the power is shifted in his kit and how his mobility still there.

Thoughts?

With these changes his Q could actually remain imo.

That'd be pretty broken since he shouldn't get his ult too early.

They could literally give him his old kit with a buffed version of the W on it, a nerfed version of the ult, and just make his Q into a utility spell (just make it a shield instead of a damaging nuke and it'd work) and he'd be a way healthier champion.

Tengrichan2 votes

Well if you use ulti early on to regain mana the enemy midlaner,jungler would be able to actually gank you.Also increased mana cost in Q could work to force the use of W to regain back mana. But i agree nerfing his ulti won't solve the problem.

Jamnon1 votes

That and his mana sustain.

Khell DarkWolf1 votes

At this point, I'm ready to start embracing a sustained melee DPS Kassadin with the rate of how these changes keep going to ridding burst Kassadin.

We got a Kassadin and Fizz that basically do the same thing. I wonder when they will do the Champion reworks?

thinking man2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Khell DarkWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ubdgwuyq,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-02-25T03:09:40.617+0000)

At this point, I'm ready to start embracing a sustained melee DPS Kassadin with the rate of how these changes keep going to ridding burst Kassadin.

We got a Kassadin and Fizz that basically do the same thing. I wonder when they will do the Champion reworks?

It'd be healthier unless they overtuned it and made him a faceroll 1v5 machine

demoniclich21 votes

I'm trying to bring that back. Can't wait. Decent success as support AD kass thus far.

junglerboy161 votes

Kassadin isn't supposed to be a hyper scaling/crap early game champ anymore. The "rework was supposed to hone in on his core identity as the anti-mage. He already had the reduced magic damage passive, and the spell shield reinforces that play style. He isn't supposed to get bullied in an AP lane match up, and that is why Zed and Talon are strong against him.

His Q isn't problematic in any way whatsoever. To be honest, NOTHING about Kassadin is problematic at this point, except the fact that he is no longer "the mobility champion" because of newer releases like Kalista RekSai Yasuo . His burst is low, his mobility is gated REALLY hard already, he is easily countered, and he doesn't actually scale as hard as people seem to think. His current kit is rather pathetic, and seems more suited to a bruiser instead of an assassin. Riot is gutting him when he is already a weak champion. His high win rate in the LCS/LCK is because a coordinated 5 man team can plan when to pick him best and knows exactly how to force him to snowball hard enough to carry before getting outscaled.

He sucks vs poke and siege, he sucks vs AD, and he sucks when behind. The ONLY logical reason the Riot is nerving his range on R is that they may be looking to buff him in other places, otherwise Riot seems to actually have no idea what to do with him.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

He sucks vs poke and siege, he sucks vs AD, and he sucks when behind. The ONLY logical reason the Riot is nerving his range on R is that they may be looking to buff him in other places, otherwise Riot seems to actually have no idea what to do with him.

I'm only quoting the last part since it's all I care about.

That's the thing, I want Riot to nerf his Q instead of his ult because I enjoy the ult range more than I enjoy spamming Q on somebody and winning lane.

Also even if I didn't quote it, I'd like to say that your assessment of Kass's power level being low is wrong, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to hone in completely on his anti-mage identity since they removed the AS part of his old passive, which was really goddamn cool.

junglerboy161 votes

Sorry, you're right, I am underselling him a little.

I also really wish they had left the old passive in some form, maybe receive X% AS whenever you take magic damage, because that +his new W passive and maybe a nashor's tooth could have turned him into a really neat AP DPS type of melee fighter.

My main point though was that the Ult nerf wasn't warranted regardless of whether they chose to nerf Q instead like you suggested. He shouldn't be nerfed at all. I agree that it would have been a little better to nerf the Q instead of his ult range, but in my opinion they shouldn't have nerfed either thing.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, you're right, I am underselling him a little.

I also really wish they had left the old passive in some form, maybe receive X% AS whenever you take magic damage, because that +his new W passive and maybe a nashor's tooth could have turned him into a really neat AP DPS type of melee fighter.

My main point though was that the Ult nerf wasn't warranted regardless of whether they chose to nerf Q instead like you suggested. He shouldn't be nerfed at all. I agree that it would have been a little better to nerf the Q instead of his ult range, but in my opinion they shouldn't have nerfed either thing.

I'm just trying to compromise since half of the community thinks he's cancer and needed nerfs and the other half doesn't think he needed nerfs.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

I don't get why people still insist on fighting Kassassin with a magic damage based champion. Previously, the silence was a hard counter to any non-Marksman mid laner, because it could shut down AD based assassins (ahem, OP Zed). But his shield only blocks magic damage, so ... if a Kassadin shows up and they didn't bother to ban your favorite AD assassins, that Kass should expect to get crushed by something like Zed, Talon, Lee Sin, Pantheon, et al.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by thinking man

how big a step is in league [explained]
Story, Art, & Sound32 comments
175
votes
You can tell something's wrong with Kalista when
Gameplay73 comments
111
votes
How to balance Kalista without nerfing her passive:
Gameplay104 comments
90
votes
Reminder that Jinx has a 32% pickrate and a 54.5% winrate
Gameplay237 comments
89
votes
Eve's E should do 1 less damage to Sion during his W
Gameplay30 comments
80
votes
We need a champion who is really resistant to magic since they don't believe it exists
Gameplay55 comments
43
votes