tbh You can probably just break all the Bruisers, Juggernauts and AD Assassins now.

ABlueQuaker·Nov 11, 2015·5 votes·638 views

Since you gave AD Carries unconditional Grievous Wounds that need nothing more than an auto-attack to be applied.

So much for unique mechanics.

21 Comments

IcyPepperNov 11, 20153 votes

I don't see why it can't have a cooldown mechanic like J4's passive.

Give bruisers a window of time to heal, instead of being permanently GW'd.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20152 votes

Reduces only self-healing and regen by 40%, as opposed to all healing by 50%.

Yes, now self-sustaining bruisers have a counter item. Because it's not like Ignite is going to consistently allow players to fight back against them.

ABlueQuakerNov 11, 20152 votes

Yeah, but they'd already been balanced around a pre-existing system. The likes of Darius generally accpted that if they got Ignited or were Burst low enough for Morello's to kick in they would have to disengage. Now they're behind as soon as they get clipped by an Auto-Attack.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20152 votes

And Marksmen have auto attacks that hit the entire enemy team at the same time--Oh, wait, no, there are maybe five Marksmen who would want to change targets in the middle of a fight, instead of focusing and killing one target at a time.

And you're ignoring the fact that ExCa and its Last Whisper upgrade only provide one offensive stat. So they'd only be picking it up late-game as a counter, because they can't afford to delay their own Lifesteal and damage.

And now the initiator needs to rely on their team for a bit more help, maybe the healer on the team supporting the initiator since their heals aren't affected by GW anymore.

Titanium70Nov 11, 20152 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] <--- item 3085 Solved

Exe is in a worse design-state than ever before... 800G to delete Mundo&Co. NICE!

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20151 votes

Self-sustain reduced by 40%.

Okay, so I go from 40/55/70% to 24/33/42% of max HP. Throw in Spirit Visage for 28.8/39.6/50.4% of max HP.

I'm still healing for a lot of health, still drawing focus from my squishier teammates, and still entirely capable of exiting combat and waiting 15 seconds to regenerate another ~55% thanks to Warmog's Heart being fucking atrocious.

Also, on the point of Runaan's Hurricane, just how popular do you think that will be over Phantom Dancers, Rapid Firecannon and other options?

Titanium70Nov 11, 20151 votes

First: It´s not about the total amount of Health you can get with Mundo - It´s about the Speed you can regenerate, Mundo usually can Tank some ADC shots or Spellcasts when close the death due to his High Regneration which allowed him to get out of a Fight. He cant do this even near as effective as he could before.

Trust me... played Graves VS Mundo Top today - he got ALOT of help from his Jungler still he wasnt able to do anything after I decided to spend 800 Gold! (And Graves cant even keep GW Up permanently due to his short Range and blockable AA´s)

Second: Jinx + Hurricane: Was extremly underrated before 5.22, Will be my Core Item when playing her now.

JustMyBassCannonNov 12, 20151 votes

To your first point, assuming he had 3500 HP (conservative guess late-game), his ultimate would be healing him for 70/84% of that--no, wait, let me go back and point out the +8% healing/shields mastery. I'll assume it's additive with SV because the math is simpler and more likely.

So either 108% or 128% of his 70% HP ultimate is 75.6% or 89.6% of his max HP over 12 seconds. Also his passive heals him for another 3.88/4.6% for a grand total of ~79.5% to 94.2% of his max HP.

At 3500 HP, that means he'd heal 2782/3297 HP over 12 seconds, or 232/275 HP per second.

Without accounting for base regen, other masteries/runes, higher stats, etc.

GW reduces that to 139/165 HP per second, a total 1669/1978 HP healed.

Yes, GW is strong, obviously, but you're still healing a lot over time. Not to mention that the ADC has to focus on you to keep the sustain down. If you're somehow not able to escape a Marksman over 9 seconds of combat, you've either made a mistake or they're desperate to focus on the tank for some horribly arbitrary reason.

Second point, yes, Jinx+Hurricane has always been underappreciated. Considering the recent nerf to her AS and the addition of Crit on the item, it's going to be popular now.

Titanium70Nov 12, 20151 votes

I´m maining Swain - I know GW are impactful but not OP. In Late Game!

I talk about Laning: In my Match I got Exe after first Back - before this, Mundo was even with me, than I destroyed his Reg, his Q Restore and his Ult any ways, he basicly killed him selfe by trying to trade me!

I dont mind having GW in Late on an Item which only good in some situation, but on LW for 800G thats bonkers!

JustMyBassCannonNov 12, 20151 votes

Not saying that there's no way it could be imbalanced, but you were Graves top. Against a melee champion reliant on sustain. Graves just became the most insane burst ADC in the game with his recent changes, and he absolutely shreds in melee range.

So of course Graves with ExCa absolutely tore Dr. Mundo a new one. I'd even be willing to bet that they had little to no idea about how Graves' rework functioned.

CatSithNov 11, 20153 votes

They havent been balanced around a pre existing system lol. AD selfhealing has always been obnoxious and had nothing to counter it besides ignite and AP casters morellos.

Elkington VINov 11, 20151 votes

The main problem I have with this is that the ADCs building item 3033 get to build lifesteal. Why should they get sustain from range, but I can't as a melee champion? You literally can no longer fight an ADC, as a sustain champion, once they have . All you can do is run away and hope someone else can kill them while you struggle to do anything.

It is a completely game-changing item that shuts down sustain-dependent champions hard, so the one building it should at least have to give up something in order to build it, but since it's a good item they don't.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20151 votes

Right, because melee champions with no CC are so common.

Elkington VINov 11, 20152 votes

Are you saying that the melee champions with little to no CC, but are dependent on sustain, should be screwed simply because they aren't common? Because they're the only ones that are hurt this right now. This hardly effects burst casters like Riven, Kha'zix, Rengar, Jayce, as most of them can blow up an ADC regardless.

DrMundo Swain Vladimir Volibear Warwick Yorick Trundle Aatrox All of the above champs are hurt by this change (there are more than this however), which is overkill imo because they have a hard enough time as it is. Resistance nerfs alone tend to hurt these champions, let alone completely shutting down their sustain.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20151 votes

Two of them are piles of toxic mechanics that need reworking, another one just needs reworking period, two of them are bruisers that still deal a metric shit-ton of damage when building pure tank, and one of them is a late-game mage with way more sustain than Grievous Wounds can "completely shut down" especially thanks to Zhonya's Hourglass still being a thing thank you very much for remembering.

I'll agree that Aatrox and Volibear will probably need some attention.

And no, I'm not saying low-CC melees should be screwed over. But almost all of those low-CC melee champions ARE NOT MEANT TO INITIATE FIGHTS. That's very important to remember. Volibear and Warwick, sure, they initiate the fight because they have pretty freaking powerful engagement tools. The vast majority of them are not built to be at the front line from the start of the fight; rather, they're supposed to follow the initiator into the fight.

Pretty much all that they lost from this is the ability to be the lead initiator against teams with half a brain.

Elkington VINov 11, 20151 votes

Which in turn makes them even less desirable than before to play compared to a champion that isn't effected as much by grievous wounds. Why risk playing a sustain champion now? I agree Yorick needs a rework and Aatrox needs something, but the others are fine.

I hear what you're saying when you list their strengths, but in reality they've always had plenty of counterplay. Also, toxic mechanics literally mean nothing these days. Nearly every popular champion these days has a toxic and/or unfair mechanic of some sort. The champions with clearly defined strengths and weaknesses are the ones that typically get left on the bench.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20151 votes

Here's a trick. Play a champion with innate sustain that they're expecting to build for sustain, but don't build based on sustain. Build on tank. Suddenly, they have GW against someone who's not using their heals to survive.

Because, y'know, they're called drain tanks for a reason.

[{quoted}](name=Elkington VI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ubB3wvEv,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-11T21:20:34.043+0000)

Also, toxic mechanics literally mean nothing these days. Nearly every popular champion these days has a toxic and/or unfair mechanic of some sort.

I'm not talking about what the community calls "toxic mechanics" because they will quite literally apply that term to everything in the goddamn game with the potential to kill. I've seen it done often enough.

No, I'm talking about champions with horrible design that Riot cannot touch unless they need to nerf it because it showed up in high-level play. Binary design. Lack of counter-play. Over-reliance on a mechanic that needs to be rebalanced, but can't be rebalanced because of the champion's current design. Basically, all of the reasons that Riot has major champion reworks.

Elkington VINov 11, 20151 votes

You don't really have to invest heavily in lifesteal or regen as a sustain-based bruiser. It helps, but it's not necessary.

For example, I'll use Trundle because I play him a lot. In my arrogant opinion, item 3065 is probably the only item for him that's completely mandatory (though you don't have to rush it, it should at least be his 2nd or 3rd item). His builds are quite versatile and he has great sustain even if you don't build lifesteal or hp regen outside of .

His major and only weakness is kiting. His sustain exists because he's going to lose a fair amount of health just reaching his target. The new GW item really messes with the way he plays, and he's got the better of it out of all the sustain champs due to how his kit works and his flexible build-pathing. He is fine and has no need of a rework.

DrMundo isn't in a terrible spot right now, but it's only a matter of time before people realize how good item 3033 is and he's hurt more by this item than most.

All I'm saying is that item 3033 should have more risk for how game-changing it is. It should not be able to perfectly fit into the build of a champion regularly builds lifesteal such as ADCs and AD melee/assassins.

JustMyBassCannonNov 11, 20151 votes

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that ExCa and Mortal Reminder are not strong. They have a solid amount of power, especially for their cost.

In comparison to the rest of the board, it's not actually that far above or below other options.

And if it truly is overbearing, Riot will nerf it or buff the sustain champs in some way. It's pretty much always how it goes.

[{quoted}](name=Elkington VI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ubB3wvEv,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-11T21:47:31.819+0000)

For example, I'll use because I play him a lot. In my arrogant opinion, is probably the only item for him that's completely mandatory

That's not exactly an arrogant opinion, considering most Trundle players to which I've spoken say much the same.