If the Sejuani Rework is representative of what Riot thinks a 'leader' should play like

ABlueQuaker·Apr 20, 2017·106 votes·5,617 views

I can see why their class updates are so consistently underwhelming and fail to deliver.

134 Comments

EndlessSorcererApr 20, 201790 votes

Sejuani Everyone go do something productive.
Sejuani I'll supervise and take credit.

RalanrApr 20, 201710 votes

Can't put it any better honestly.

MelledoneusApr 20, 201728 votes

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/images/i/000/008/678/original/michael-scott-the-office.PNG?1432126986

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 21, 201711 votes

Sejuani Melees* go do something productive Sejuani You ranged champs are worthless to me.

EndlessSorcererApr 21, 20174 votes

Sejuani Ranged champions are the bait.

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 20, 201740 votes

I've been very, very defensive of Riot, and try not to blindly QQ- but I agree. Their class updates have really been "meh." I still haven't forgiven them for murdering my beautiful Malzahar. It feels like they do class updates for the sake of class updates. If they were really doing the tanks because the class needed modernizing, they would have reworked Mundo, Cho'Gath, and Malphite- all 3 of which feel very, very dated. Instead they went for 3 champions who were all relatively unique already, and ruined two of them. Zac looks fucking awesome, I can't take that away from them, but the other two are blah. Like I said, it feels like change for the sake of change, rather than change because a change is needed. I'd rather them focus on the individual champions that need VGUs rather than force changes on an entire class just because. If an entire class actually DOES need modernizing, that's fine. But to force a class update twice a year seems silly. They haven't even fixed everything they ruined with the mage update. Hell, they still haven't fixed Darius from the bruiser update almost 2 years ago. Lol.

ABlueQuakerApr 20, 20175 votes

[deleted]

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 20, 201712 votes

As an ex-Malzahar main, I know how it feels. It sucks. I appreciate Riot always trying to keep the game fresh, but change for the sake of change often leads to shitty reworks. Like, new Galio is fun. He's a blast. But he doesn't feel like old Galio. So I feel bad for the 3 old Gaio mains out there. The kit was so awesome, it could've been a brand new champ. These smaller reworks are just dumb. What's the point? Sej, Mao, and Zac were fine, even tho the Zac rework looks SICK.

Chembaron YamadaApr 20, 201733 votes

Malphite and Dr. Mundo are both on the list for VGU, reworking them if they will get a major rework in the future is wasted effort. And 2 of these 3 champions you mentioned aren't even tanks. Dr. Mundo is a juggernaut, that is a fighter subclass and Cho'Gath is unique, he actually isn't labelled.

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 20, 20172 votes

Too many subclasses imo. Mundo builds fulltank= for all intents and purposes, he's a tnak. I didn't know about the VGUs though. Why not just wait on the tank update and coincide it with the VGUs?

SilverjustApr 20, 201722 votes

Mundo deals more damage and has no hard CC than a Tank, so he is a Juggernaut

SirΤeemοApr 21, 20171 votes

according to your comments my friend, all 99% champions played on top are jaggernauts .

SilverjustApr 21, 20171 votes

You are right, I did not explain it well. A juggernaut is tanky, imobile, has high close-range damage and low CC

Mundo builds full tank, but is still a Juggernaut

SirΤeemοApr 21, 20171 votes

Mundo builds full tank because even if he builds ad-ap his skills don't get stronger . And also with his ultimate that he gets a lot of hp back , it's the best path to go tank .

Ski GlovesApr 21, 20172 votes

What Mundo builds is irrelevant. Tanks are close range, exceptionally bulky champions that threaten opponents with crowd control abilities. Mundo's Cleaver is his only crowd control ability, which is incredibly lackluster for a tank, especially in today's world where slow reductions and ignoring effects are everywhere.

Plus, Mundo can build for damage. Like Sejuani and Amumu he can get a lot of value out of Liandry's Torment and then increase that value further with Rylai's Crystal Scepter. He can also grab a Bami's Cinder like any other melee champion. Titanic Hydra is also always an option and synergises greatly with his usual purchases (shit tonnes of health and a spirit's visage).

Chembaron YamadaApr 20, 201712 votes

Dr. Mundo and Malphite require alot more work than what they can achieve in the tank update. Not just their gameplay needs a complete overhault, their models too. They need to be redesigned from scratch. That's why it doesn't make sense to wait for the tank update. There is no way they can handle these champs in a class update.

So they had to pick tanks which could use a new touch, but are not outdated as much that they need to get relaunched.

Jeddy017Apr 20, 20172 votes

Cho'gath too.

SpoofghoulApr 20, 20177 votes

Cho gath is a bit like Sion

neither really have a subclass

i just call them behemoth's

since they get tanky and deal good damage like juggernauts but they also have heavy cc in their kits, they also outrange most juggernauts

but they have this at the price of being slow ass immobile melee's who are enormously telegraphed

Chembaron YamadaApr 20, 20174 votes

Sion is classified as a vanguard. Which makes sense, vanguards are initiating tanks. And Sions ult just screams "I GO IN NOW AND YOU BETTER FOLLOW!". Tanks are allowed to have damage, just look at the tank update. The thing is, a well designed tank shouldn't be able to apply that damage reliably. Sion was the prime example of a successful reworked tank.

Cho'Gath on the other hand has elements of tanks but he isn't a warden since he can't protect carries really well, but he isn't good at initiating either. Hence why he is in line for a VGU, he definitely needs a better defined role.

midnight oil24Apr 20, 20173 votes

Mundo, Malph, and possibly cho (not sure on him) are all in line for VGU's, so there wouldn't be a reason to give hem an update only to redo it soon after.

RozzetaApr 21, 20172 votes

The best part about Malzahar is that not only was he butchered, but now is also being balanced around being support. That class balancing is practically a death sentence, since it destroys any functionality other than support.

ModAcademy KaynApr 20, 201718 votes

Alright, I get it, you don't like the direction. But instead of mindlessly complaining about something SUGGEST SOMETHING. Say WHY you think she doesn't live up to Warcheif Leader. Share WHY you think is wrong with the current idea. Share WHAT you think could potentially make that Vision a reality.

These mindless shit posts do literally nothing but encourage the un-discussive circlejerks that plague this boards.

japhibApr 20, 20174 votes

Amen ... boards so toxic. Nothing interesting, just complaining

SweedishGunnerApr 20, 20173 votes

Implying Rito will listen or even see the post and then make changes.

SqkergApr 20, 20172 votes

They listen, they see it, and if they like it they'll at least suggest it.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 21, 20172 votes

According to the zayah rakan vid over a hundred designers see any one champ(who knows how many their actually are 300+?), with that many people it's very unlikely that they are listening very much at all. When you have that many people working on a game, development becomes very very insulated. Devs like the ones who work on "warframe" are the only devs i can think of that REALLY listen a communicate with their players, but they are an incredible exception on top being vastly smaller and more nimble that rito is.

Lux Is Mai WaifuApr 20, 20177 votes

No one should have to suggest anything besides scrap the shit rework for an already well designed champion.

TyrekGoldenspearApr 20, 20176 votes

If Sej got nerfed to the ground for her current kit, I don't think it's well designed.

Big LincolnApr 20, 20177 votes

Sejuani was completely fine until the creation of Cinderhulk being what was essentially a huge boost to her damage, on top of the jungle tank item being turned into a mini-Sunfire for bonus damage that affected anyone, instead of the season 4 Quill Coat, which was kind of like a Thornmail that only worked vs monsters.

Even with her W doing twice as much damage as it does now, she was at the perfect average of statistics. Cinderhulk is what broke her.

Voluug13Apr 20, 201713 votes

She got nerfed because she took the stoplight from Lee Sin for like 5 hours, before they utterly destroyed her, and then Cinderhulk, with no compensation thereafter.

She was nerfed because of Riot meta enforcing, not because she was horribly broken or something. Same with Malzahar, Zilean, and basically any anti-meta champion that ever existed.

SqkergApr 20, 20173 votes

This is objectively false.

I WatchApr 21, 20173 votes

No it's not what the hell are you talking about..?

SqkergApr 21, 20172 votes

I'm talking about Riot enforcing the meta. Sej nerfs were needed because she was extremely overtuned, so yes, she was rediculously strong. There is no basis for the nerfs happening because she was "contesting lee sin". Also they did not "utterly destroy her", she was left in an okay spot until cinderhulk nerfs where she was a bit weak. I do think that they should have given her some sort of compensation after cinderhulk nerfs, but they wouldn't have had to have been large. I personally don't recall Zilean nerfs, and Malzahar was nerfed because of his unhealthy play patterns, not because he was "anti-meta" whatever that means. I'm just so tired of people accusing Riot of bias just because they won't turn Lee into a durable 300g ward. He's stateing things as fact using evidence that is at best circumstantial, and at worst, simply wrong.

Voluug13Apr 21, 20177 votes

She was 100% fine until Cinderhulk, and the playerbase told them to nerf Cinderhulk (since EVERYONE was picking) and instead they gutted Sejuani, and THEN Cinderhulk.

After that, her itemization saw nothing but nerfs ebcause bruisers/tankassassins/adcs abused it.

There is no basis for the nerfs happening because she was "contesting lee sin".

Lee Sin was, literally, for the first time out of the top 3 junglers of the game, for less that a few weeks, before Riot rolled out the Lee Sin buffs and Cinderhulk/Sejuani nerfs.

I personally don't recall Zilean nerfs,

His entire rework was a gigantical nerf to his midlaning, an intentional one because the LCS players discovered how strong was to deny assassins in an assassin midlane meta, which is what Zilean does best (revive ult, fast and mobile, strong point and click but shortranged harass that also worked as waveclear).

Atm he is nothing more that a mediocre niche support with even more mediocre midlaning, away from being an anti-mobility champion.

and Malzahar was nerfed because of his unhealthy play patterns, not because he was "anti-meta" whatever that means.

His rework not only was made with literally no real understanding of how Malzahar worked (somehow Riot believed he was a less picked annie aka flash ult, but that was never true), but also it was contradictory to malzahar's own counterplay patterns and '''''oppresive''''' gameplay (which was only opressive to assassins), and thus it failed the moment it was ideated, in an obvious attempt to destroy another anti-assassin midlaner from the game into another gimmicky lowish damage mage.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 21, 20171 votes

She wasn't well designed... not for current league

Lux Is Mai WaifuApr 21, 20172 votes

Kit-wise she's the best designed tank in the game, Riot just doesn't want to adjust her damage numbers for the current meta because they don't want to admit they overreacted and nerfing the champion then nerfing the item anyways was dumb.

LankPantsApr 21, 20173 votes

Just the fact that these are reaching the front is good, it shows Riot that we are not at all happy with their rework and that something needs to be done.

Have you seen my thread though.

Say WHY you think she doesn't live up to Warcheif Leader.

Check

Share WHY you think is wrong with the current idea.

Yes

Share WHAT you think could potentially make that Vision a reality.

Did it.

They're different styles of thread, mine is more in depth, this is more pointing out that there is an issue/taking a shot. Both are good right now.

Very Hard EngageApr 20, 201710 votes

they're trying to make "unique" a thing.

but they fail internally when determining "does it work in league"

what do people want - hard cc

what are we given? conditional on hit passives.

i want taric/sion stuns that quality of CC, very light but necessary as part of basic kits as a pocket pick should you need it. thats no longer the case.

EndlessSorcererApr 20, 201718 votes

The only things I wanted out of Sejuani's rework were:

A faster jungle clear (so Lee Sin/Graves/Ivern don't absolutely out-farm and out-pressure her).
An actual passive

We have instead received a butchered gimmick.

Sraeg2013Apr 20, 20175 votes

We have instead received a butchered gimmick.

Like every single class-updated champion ever.

An Undead bratApr 20, 20177 votes

That's a false statement.

Sraeg2013Apr 20, 20171 votes

Well, yer somewhat right.

For example Zyra got a gimmick that made her and will make in the future a complete cancer if anyhow strong. Some class-updated champions also had their gimmicks either removed or replaced, because of how fucking terrible they were.

An Undead bratApr 20, 20174 votes

Zyra did not get any gimmick, it's only the expression of your skill if you can play around the spawning of her seeds, this way we could call Nasus' Q stacking a gimmick.

Sraeg2013Apr 20, 20173 votes

At least when my main (Syndra) got a toxic gimmick I wasn't in denial about it.

For your information rolling a dice is NOT an expression of skill and Nasus' Q stacking is NOTHING like Zyra's RNG seed spawning.

Baron of BreadApr 21, 20172 votes

When did Syndra get a toxic gimmick? She has never had a gimmick other than don't get hit by spheres and don't position where you can get hit by spheres.

Sraeg2013Apr 21, 20172 votes

Shows how much you know.

MYMU changed her W to allow picking 3 spheres (instead of 1) which with as little as 20% CDR allowed her to walk around with 7-sphere ult (maxed damage) indefinitely.

Before MYMU the window for a 7-sphere ult was 0.5 second after a ~12 seconds preparation. If this window was missed, the whole preparation had to be done from scratch.

SqkergApr 20, 20176 votes

Kat and brand reworks were successful, I'd argue Darius's rework was too.

WolfeurApr 21, 20173 votes

Frost Armor engulfs Sejuani in true ice, becoming immune to Slow icon slows and gains 100 (+ 100% total armor) bonus armor and 100 (+ 100% total magic resistance) bonus magic resistance.

Come on, can you be happy, sometimes? There is an actual passive.

Also, did you try her on the PBE to check her jungle clear?

LankPantsApr 21, 20172 votes