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Shaco Gameplay Update

Stacona··2 votes·684 views

Few reasons to why Shaco needs a rework are: 1. Toxic gameplay pattern and is not a good champion to go against ever; 2. May be able to survive in the chaos of solo queue but will never be competitively viable, and is only in solo queue environments due to both people who main the champion and his toxic gameplay pattern which is not good for the game; 3. Shaco has very weird and clunky mechanics even back in the day and especially in modern league like how Backstab (his passive) works.

Things I find staple to Shaco are his Jack in the Boxes and his clone, the things that will remain the same for the most part. I will also focus on Shaco being more on the Ability Power side, his Attack Damage side will still be there of course because AD Shaco was mainly only an auto attacker anyways, but focusing more on Ability Power Shaco will make him more legitimate as a squishy damage dealer melee for competitive / high tier play.

Surely You Jest (Passive): Shaco dodges all projectiles and basic attacks for 0.5 second upon casting his spells.

Deceive (Q): Cooldown: 11/10.5/10/9.5/9 seconds after stealth; Cost: 65 Mana Shaco instantly stealths for 4/5/6/7/8 seconds gaining 20% movement speed while stealth and leaving behind an obvious fake, visible, clone doll of himself which detonates upon Shaco emerging from stealth which deals 80/120/160/200/240(+60%AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies struck.

The fake doll clone is motionless, matches Shaco's current health, and acts like a minion body so it can potentially block certain skill shots; if the fake doll is killed it will still detonate similar to how Hallucinate's clone works.

Jack in the Box (W): Cooldown: 16/15/14/13/12 seconds; Cost: 55 Mana; Range: 425 units Shaco summons a box at the target location that stealth after a 2 seconds delay and lasts for up to 40/45/50/55/60 seconds. When an enemy comes within 300 units, the box springs open: causing surrounding enemies to turn and flee for 1 second while it attacks nearby enemies for up to 5 seconds dealing 40/50/60/70/80(+20%AP) magic damage per attack.

Two-Shiv Poison: Cooldown: 8 seconds; Cost: 40/50/60/70/80 Mana; Range: 950 units Shaco throws a dagger in the target direction to either hit the first enemy struck or Hallucinate's clone which will detonate the clone early and cause it to additonally slow struck enemies by 50/60/70/80/90% for 3 seconds.

If the dagger hits an enemy from the front then it deals 70/110/150/190/230(+65%AP)(+100%Bonus AD) magic damage, slow by 35%, and blind for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds. If the dagger hits an enemy from behind then it deals 100/145/190/235/280(+75%AP)(+100%Bonus AD) magic damage, slow by 50/55/60/65/70%, and silence for 1.5 seconds.

Hallucinate (R): Cooldown: 110/90/70 seconds; Cost: 100 Mana Shaco vanishes for 0.5 seconds, then creates an identical clone of himself which he can control for up to 18 seconds. The clone matches Shaco's current health and receives 50% increased damage and if it dies by Two-Shiv Poison, depleted health, or duration time outs then it detonates and explodes to deal 300/450/600(+100%AP) magic damage to all nearby struck enemies.

Some quick notes: Deceive: This spell is the most problematic in Shaco kit and offers zero counter play when against Shaco having a blink into instant stealth, so either the blink goes or the stealth goes. Since Shaco is suppose to be a jester champion tormenting and having fun with his opponent being the trickster that he is I figured keeping Shaco as a stealth champion will allow him to be tricky with an instant stealth, jack in the boxes, and his ultimate's clone and be unique in that aspect. While if he kept his blink then he will not have his jestery elements and just be another low counter play and bland blink/mobile champion which also does not address his toxic gameplay pattern.

Jack In the Box: Fear Duration no longer scales but cooldown goes down so more boxes for maxing this spell and damage has been adjusted, stealth box duration lowered at early ranks to try to remove his cheese elements as jungle Shaco so that he cannot cheese the enemy jungler by killing a camp in a couple of seconds and cheesing the enemy in his jungle with a bunch jack in the boxes in a brush the lower duration early ranks and Deceive no long having a blink should really minimize Shaco's toxic gameplay pattern in this sense. By rank 5 I tried to make it so that he can scatter boxes for the later game so that he is able to play around a key gameplay element to Shaco which is his Jack in the Boxes.

Two-Shiv Poison: Became a skill shot so range buff and some added CC which depends on whether the dagger hit the target in the front or back and slightly more damage in the back (even though I removed Backstab, I decided to leave a Backstab mechanic within this spell and it is easier to balance Shaco in this way rather than having a 20% damage amplification from everything) blind is good for trading and jungling, while silence is good for chasing down escaping targets with a powerful slow or coming in for a gank. Also now interacts with his ultimate's clone! This way there is a lot of decision making for this spell and can make his ultimate into more of a mage-like high impactful ultimate with high damage and powerful slow or just use it for the clone.

Hope you appreciate the ideas; comments and concerns are welcomed and properly displayed feedback (things like "broken" or "overpower / OP" are not welcomed and does not offer anything good to improve on the base CONCEPT IDEAS) ~ Stacona

15 Comments

Seth Lightheart4 votes

Meh. I see you put a lot of time into this, I just can't agree.

Stacona1 votes

Cannot agree with what?

FHMarshy2 votes

"Few reasons to why Shaco needs a rework are: 1. Toxic gameplay pattern and is not a good champion to go against ever; 2. May be able to survive in the chaos of solo queue but will never be competitively viable, and is only in solo queue environments due to both people who main the champion and his toxic gameplay pattern which is not good for the game; 3. Shaco has very weird and clunky mechanics even back in the day and especially in modern league like how Backstab (his passive) works."

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23226219#ranked-stats

Seriously i don't think someone who only played shaco ONCE in all season 3 to 5 have a say in Shaco bringing "toxic gameplay"

So what EXACTLY is the "toxic gameplay pattern" you are referring to?

Then here:

Your first and second point basically is saying he is good for solo queue and is only played because people that main him?

more than **HALF ** of the champions fit into that category. Good luck buddy

He isn't played in competitive play? Go look at how many champions are played there then come back to try and defend your point.

TOXIC GAMEPLAY? not a single sentence in your whole lengthy paragraphs defined your so called "Toxic Gameplay"

How in the world is Shaco toxic?

Stacona1 votes

I am saying only the hardcore Shaco mains play him

And a Champion who relies entirely on cheesing the enemy jungler through a stealth blink mechanic and waiting in a brush with jack in the boxes is not good gameplay - the reduced stealth time for boxes early ranks means less boxes for a quick camp for level 2 to blink over and get a cheap firat blood on the enemy jungler with no real counter play outside of luck of hoping he isn't there waiting

Shaco applying strong early game pressure, setting up plays, and actually being strategic with boxes and clones and such and being tricky with his opponent like a jester is cool and a unique element to Shaco - stealth blink has no counter play and early game cheese is a bad habit and bad gameplay that everyone hates to face against - the 20% damage amp for hitting someone from behind just makes it hard to balance Shaco so adding direct backstabing elements and removing the damage amp makes it easier to balance shaco so he can nerf/buffed a lot more easily

FHMarshy2 votes

"And a Champion who relies entirely on cheesing the enemy jungler through a stealth blink mechanic and waiting in a brush with jack in the boxes is not good gameplay"

says who?

I say Nasus farming all game is bad game play too then? I say WW having to get 6 to become a threat in jungle is a horrible gamepley too then?

no counteR? u know a thing called ward? you know how squishy he is? you know at level 2 once he is out of stealth he either kills or get killed/

How is it no counter play?

All your argument is showing that you DON'T KNOW how to play against a Shaco properly and hence you are saying the way he is played isn't good.

Stacona1 votes

Nasus does have bad gameplay actually

And you don't have wards early game

FHMarshy1 votes

U know trinket?

LOL who is to say Nasus doesn't have bad gameplay?

You are saying Shaco provides bad gameplay without providing reasons and I am saying the same about Nasus.

What's wrong ? If im wrong, then so are you

DrCyanide2 votes

Toxic gameplay pattern and is not a good champion to go against ever

What makes you think he's toxic? The fact that you have a hard time chasing him? Or is it that you need to place your wards in different places? I personally think Shaco's one of the better assassins to play against, since he has to either be super crafty (either by using his clone expertly or by using his boxes in an awesome way) or he has to actually wait for an enemy to be out of position. He's squishy enough that he dies if he just tries to Q into the ADC, and he can't just mash every keyboard button to pick up kills. That suggests a healthier gameplay than several other champions.

May be able to survive in the chaos of solo queue but will never be competitively viable

This week in the LCS we saw Urgot and Yorick, both of which won their games. I wouldn't be surprised if a Shaco turns up in the pro scene before the season ends.

Shaco has very weird and clunky mechanics even back in the day and especially in modern league like how Backstab (his passive) works.

Backstab's mechanics are the exact opposite of Cassiopeia's ultimate mechanic, which is one that Riot didn't change when they re-worked her. His abilities could maybe use faster cast times, but they're not bad (contrast to Gangplank, who has to wonder if he should use his move speed boost for fear his enemies might catch him if he stops to use it).

[Rework Idea]

Passive - meh, seems like it wants to force twitch reflexes rather than actual craftiness. You'll end up saving one ability for your escape, rather than using it in a way that feels right.

Q - That's Wukong's clone, and copying it to Shaco feels like it lessens both champions

W - I like the cooldown reduction. It bugs me that boxes fall off like they do. I'd personally like to see them gain some HP or Armor with level.

E - Way too overloaded, especially given the extra range you give it.

R - Same (without the overloaded E)

[Quick Notes]

Deceive - This ability is what makes Shaco Shaco. I would ditch clones and boxes to keep Deceive in a state close to what it is. Saying it has no counterplay is a stretch too. Rek'Sai can see where Shaco is, and all Junglers have a way to get true sight without paying for an item. Sweeping Lens and Pink wards see him, and AoE attacks still hit him. What the dash + stealth gives him is a way to be tricky, and getting rid of either ruins that. I don't think you'd ever get a Shaco player to sign off on this change.

Jack in the Box - You'll never remove Shaco using the boxes against the first camp as long as the boxes are target-able. You can lessen their usefulness, but you can't remove the strategy, especially if you're trying to emphasize AP Shaco.

Two-Shiv Poison - You overloaded this ability like a mad man. A maximum 30% slow becomes a maximum 90% AoE slow, on top of having a silence, blind, and causing your ult to deal bonus damage. Despite claiming you want more of a focus on AP Shaco, you nerf AP Shaco's damage with this ability, while leaving AD Shaco mostly untouched (other than the backstab removal).

Honestly, after reading through this all, I can't help but come back to the question "What makes you think he's toxic?". He has a different playstyle (he's not a button mashing assassin), he has weaknesses, he has strengths, and I personally think he's one of the best assassins you can fight against. When I get beat by a Shaco, I feel like I lost fair and square (unlike when I get deleted by a Katarina/Zed/LeBlanc/pre-nerf Akali). What makes you feel different about it?

Stacona1 votes

Shaco is toxic because he relies too heavily on cheese, and I want the crafty element and playing around his trickster style of play and his boxes- The blink stealth and spam boxes to destroy red or blue and then cheese the enemy jungler at his next camp is not a good gameplay element, setting things up and playing ahead and being strategic is different, but killing red buff in 2 seconds and then blink and stealthing over walls to backstab crit you and kill you and take your jungle this is not a good gameplay element and reason to why you dont see shaco buffs --- if shaco's issues get fixed while keeping his unique elements (set-up traps, jack in the box, and his clone) then Shaco can be much more easily balanced so that Riot can easily nerf if too strong and buff if too weak on a patch to patch basis until he is at a good spot - right now Shaco is severely broken and cannot get nerfs because he is low played and is not competively viable, just can be solo queue material if someone mains the jester

kat, zed, leblanc all need nerfs don't get me wrong - but the concept idea is not about nerfing or buffing Shaco but fixing issues he has in the game and keeping his unique elements of trying to bait people with stealth, clones, and jack in the boxes which is his cool elements, -- poor elements are cheesing the enemy jungler at a camp or brush and getting a cheap first blood with jack in the boxes and the blink just encourages this even more, at least an instant stealth is different where it can be defensive still, but it can be quick thinking and try to outwit your opponent and try get your opponent to walk into an area of jack in the boxes-

tl:dr : shaco being a strategic champion is cool, but the blink stealth needs to go and the early game cheese strats needs to go too; these are the issues i want to address - also the shaco doll bomb is great for burst if you are melee range already and dont need the stealth for a gap closer and jungle clear and wave clear - while everything else is fundamently the same besides E being a skill shot instead of a point and click and some added power for the skill shot and more unique back stabbing element

DrCyanide1 votes

So you'd completely rework a champion because you don't one option available to him in the first two levels?

Decent junglers move their Red/Blue buff into the nearest bush to attack them, which helps them avoid being snuck up on while taking it. That one move prevent most of the cheese you're refering to. Additionally, unless I'm remembering wrong, you can see Shaco's Jacks being placed in the fog of war. Using that information, you know where he starts. This allows you to do some level 1 cheese, and either start at the other side of Shaco's jungle or wait for him to almost finish the buff and smite it, denying him level 2 and stealing the buff for yourself.

Cheese isn't toxic, it's a strategy that's generally considered cheep but has a significant downside if you fail. Loosing his first buff, loosing the other buff from his own jungle, or dying at level 2 durring his invade are high prices which Shaco pays for this cheese.

Ultimately, your proposed changes seem like they will make Shaco a champion that is worse to play against rather than better.

This Shaco walks up to you. If you try and attack him, he drops a Jack in the Box and keeps walking. He stealths right next to you and instantly pops the stealth with Recall. This deals 240 (+60% AP) instantly, and makes him immune to any attack you send back at him. He he throws his dagger at point-blank, dealing either 230 (+65% AP)(+100% bonus AD) slows you for 35% and blinds you for 2.5 seconds, or deals 280(+75% AP)(+100% bonus AD) slows you for 70% and silences you for 1.5 seconds. Oh, and it's worth pointing out that durring this encounter you could not attack Shaco in any way, shape, or form.

The great irony is that you are making Shaco have less counterplay than he currently does, and you give him a rediculously strong level 2 all in. Your new Shaco kit is more toxic than the existing one.

Stacona1 votes

Completely different champion, that is right- ALL i did was remove his blink and buffed his stealth to compensate I just made his E have back stab potential for better balancing, because 20% damage amp is a nightmare to balance

DrCyanide1 votes

Take away LeBlanc's dash, see if she feels like LeBlanc. Take away Jinx's Switcheroo, see if she still feels like Jinx. Take away Zed's Shadow, see if he still feels like Zed. Take away Gangplank's Parrrley, see if he still feels like Gangplank. Take away Shaco's dash+stealth, see if he still feels like Shaco.

You are tackling this rework idea from an "I'm hostile towards Shaco" perspective. I think that's your fundamental issue here.

Your E hitting the Q dummy idea is impossible. Did you know that? Attacking or using a spell instantly cancels any stealth in the game, which causes the Q dummy to instantly destroy itself before the dagger can hit.

Did you know Riot doesn't have a vendetta against targeted abilities? The only reason to have Two-Shiv converted into a skill shot is all the extra stuff you tried to load onto the ability and the alternative passive you gave him.

Does your Ultimate clone still actually attack? Or is it a LeBlanc clone that explodes? You don't specify, and considering that everything else changed it seems like that might be out the window too.

Do yourself a favor and play 20 more games with Shaco. Learn how he handles, what makes him fun, what his weaknesses are, what his strengths are. Then if you want to come back to the rework table, you'll have a better notion of what you should and should not change.

Terff1 votes

Shaco is played in challenjour idk what you're talking about when you say he's not competitively viable.

Stacona1 votes

I said solo queue and only played if you main him

ScreamPaste1 votes

This is horrible and would ruin my favourite champion. No.

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