So ekko has enough cc and utility to be played as a tank in the LCS

freepointzs·Jun 18, 2015·135 votes·7,026 views

and Mobility and damage to be played as an assassin.

And people want to try and argue that Ekko isn't overloaded

145 Comments

Lemons22Jun 18, 201544 votes

Good? I like it when champions can do two things when itemized differently...just as long as he isn't a tank AND and an assassin at the same time.

Raid Boss MordeJun 19, 20159 votes

Tank Assassins? Diana, Irelia, Nasus (lategame).

Rustling BushJun 19, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYnAORqR,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-06-19T00:28:23.858+0000)

Tank Assassins? Diana, Irelia, Nasus (lategame).

how about tank assassin support junglers?

Ekko

and you maybe wondering, ekko support? yeah thats a thing because his w is almost akin to leona's ult in 20 seconds, you max w (now at 15 seconds) and go tanky, its not fun playing against either, its almost boarderline oppressive. ekko jungle is also a thing i saw, his clear time were stupid good and so are his ganks with his w being the size of a foot ball field, you won't even hear it go off while hes loading it in the bush, which can catch you by complete surprise, the laner starts stack cc on you and ekko suddenly blinks on top of you, their is very little indication of when ekko is going to gank. the only role ekko can't fufill is obviously adc.

BeatzBoyFTWJun 19, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYnAORqR,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-06-19T01:39:08.680+0000)

how about tank assassin support junglers?

and you maybe wondering, ekko support? yeah thats a thing because his w is almost akin to leona's ult in 20 seconds, you max w (now at 15 seconds) and go tanky, its not fun playing against either, its almost boarderline oppressive. ekko jungle is also a thing i saw, his clear time were stupid good and so are his ganks with his w being the size of a foot ball field, you won't even hear it go off while hes loading it in the bush, which can catch you by complete surprise, the laner starts stack cc on you and ekko suddenly blinks on top of you, their is very little indication of when ekko is going to gank. the only role ekko can't fufill is obviously adc.

Ekko support? Really man...?

Views of Ekko's abilities from a certain ADC (specifically an Ashe):

Q: Fk, stop pushing my lane W: Dude, stun them! Dead in 0.5 second wtf dude.... E: Wow dude, u ditched me there after we got ganked. R: STOP KS-ING ME!!!

EkkoFrofflesJun 19, 201511 votes

Q: Go at it the same way Blitzcrank's go about hooks. Q around the minions. W: Who's dead in 0.5 seconds? Not Ekko if he gets his shield. And if he does land his stun with his ADC nearby, it's your opponent that'll be dead in 0.5 seconds. E: Uh... as Ekko support you'd primarily be using your E to give chase, jump into your W, and escape (likely with your fleeing ADC). R: As Ekko support, I barely ever use my ult offensively. And even if you do, you wouldn't be the only commonly seen support who can pick up kills on your own. There's Annie, Lux, Zyra, etc. Plus, what most players care the most about is that the opponent is dead. Who gets the kill is inconsequential, unless you're stealing every kill.

Meeks011Jun 19, 20152 votes

Irelia doesn't have burst and Nasus doesn't have mobility.

Raid Boss MordeJun 20, 20152 votes

Irelia doesn't have burst... WHAT? You obviously have never fought one then.

WumachineJun 20, 20153 votes

she has no burst whatsoever.....

Raid Boss MordeJun 20, 20151 votes

Then I've seen many people die very quickly to her, and I have been killed very quickly by her, even when she's tank.

ËpicJun 20, 20151 votes

She literally has 0 burst. Her ult even comes out in small portions.

Raid Boss MordeJun 21, 20151 votes

Her ult doesn't, but her Q applying on-hit effects does. Her W and E also make her seem much bursty.

TehNACHOJun 18, 201519 votes

I remember back when people complained Rito was trying too hard to kill build diversity by only allowing champions to do one particular role.

ChaoticPineconeJun 18, 20153 votes

youre taking 2 events in isolation and not considering the consequences when both happen.

Yes, people might have complained about killing build diversity, but it ended up happening - champions were forced into one role. Now that most of our champions are neatly packaged into one role each (for the most part), they release a champion that excels at many roles. Either force all the champions into one role or allow all the champions to have some diversity.

LordGeovanniJun 19, 20152 votes

there is no either or the only reason champions cant play one role or another is because players dont want to chance trying to play a champion where he may not be percivied as belonging there like natalus was a year ago i was branded a troll for carrying him bot as a tank and feeding the hell out of my adc with my high base damages root slow knock up and pull

ChaoticPineconeJun 19, 20153 votes

Annie gets played as support - nerfed in attack range and base damage, and ratios got improved. Zyra gets played as support - base damage nerf, ratios improve. Veigar played as support -no more immediate stun, but double Q farm Maokai gets played top - heath regen nerfed, damage nerfed. Naut played as support - shield and damage gets nerfed early, shield scales harder lategame with items. Pantheon gets played in the jungle - attack speed nerfed. Wukong gets played in jungle - nerfed (though for him, he got nerfed in all his roles, not just the one that became FoTM).

Face it dude. When a champion gets played in a role they arent supposed to play, most of the time they get hit with nerfs that only affect that one role, then get some compensation for their 'normal' role.

Edit - forgot Fiddle, who got nerfed in his CC and passive once he got played as support.

AnidanJun 19, 20152 votes

It's one of those things where one camp of people loves that champions can carry out multiple rules while another camp hates that idea that certain champions can excel in more than one. I, for example, don't mind that Ekko can do multiple roles if he's built for them. Current overtuned damage aside, that's actually pretty cool to be either a tank or an assassin. That versatility could potentially allow him to be a nice wildcard pick that doesn't reveal your team's strategy immediately and I like that, as I do for a lot of versatile picks. But on the other hand, I can easily see how other people might see that he can do two seemingly contradictory roles as being a little overbearing since even as an assassin he's going to retain that same utility and cc, even if it's used in a different manner.

Kind of like how some people absolutely hate Lulu top but don't mind her as a support, or how others absolutely hated Soraka, Sona or Janna mid but didn't hate them as supports. They used their strengths and went into a solo lane with them despite their fairly large downsides, until that secondary role was nerfed (Soraka couldn't Infuse herself with mana and lost Starcall damage, Janna lost tornado damage, Sona lost.. well, Sona just plain lost) and they were forced back into their primary because of it. When you look at cases like that, and a few others I'm certain that I'm forgetting, it's kind of easy to believe Riot has a set place or two that they planned for a champion to go, and if they deviate from that then they receive nerfs until they step back in line. I'm never sure how I feel about that.

Shroom JunkieJun 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I remember back when people complained Rito was trying too hard to kill build diversity by only allowing champions to do one particular role.

Yes, but they didn't want an assassin that could 1) take an entire group and not just one person and 2) not allow anyone to move while he's shitting on your whole team.

Slamurai JackJun 18, 201518 votes

You'll notice that tanky Ekko isn't winning in LCS, and neither is Ekko in general.

TrumpetJun 19, 20158 votes

shh, don't let them catch onto facts this is gameplay and balance.

PROJECT BearJun 18, 201510 votes

I for one like that a champion is able to play in multiple roles.

DanofDemaciaJun 19, 201513 votes

Lulu The queen of multiple roles

blueberrypancakeJun 19, 20152 votes

Kayle item 3070

At least she has AD Scaling

YumaS2AstralJun 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I for one like that a champion is able to play in multiple roles.

Fizz can be played as a burst AP assassin or as an on-hit AD bruiser.

Chogath can be played as a burst mage or as a full tank (with only RoA as his single damage item).

Ezreal can be played as an AP poke mage or as an ADC.

Fiddlesticks can go jungle, can go mid, can go support, and even top if you want to try it out.

Galio Like Cho'Gath, he can be played as a burst mage or as a full tank.

Gragas Again, like Cho'Gath; either a burst mage or a full tank.

Kennen Believe on me: Kennen can be used as an AP mage OR as an AD full tank.

KogMaw can be played as an AP siege mage or as a hypercarry ADC.

LeeSin Can be a bruiser, an assassin, and even a full tank.

Lissandra Can be used as an AP burst/kite mage or an AP bruiser.

Malphite He can be played as a full tank, an AP bruiser, an AP burst mage, as a support... and before the 5.11 changes, he could also be played as an AD bruiser, due to the AD bonus that he could gain from the old W.

Malzahar Can go AP or AD

MasterYi Can be played as a mele carry assassin or as an AD on-hit bruiser.

MissFortune Can be played as an ADC or as an AP mage.

Mordekaiser Can go full AP or go AP bruiser.

Nautilus He can go top, jungle, and support.

Nidalee She can go AD and AP, although the recent changes made an AP build more favorable. The AD build used to be broken. She can go on literally every lane too; from top to jungle, mid, support, and even ADC if you want to.

Nocturne can be built as an assassin or as a full tank.

Poppy Most of time she is played as an AD to take advantage of her mixed scalings and to be more difficult to tank... but she is very viable as an AP burst champion.

RekSai She used to be viable as an AP before the nerfs to her Q.

Rengar He can also go AP due to his W. Although AD is usually better.

Sejuani She is most of time played as a tank jungler, but she can also go mid as an AP burst mage.

Shaco He can be used as an AD assassin or as an AP kite/trap mage, sorta like Teemo.

Thresh He can go support, ADC, and even jungle. Although jungle is usually hard due to how his passive works. Thresh could be a very viable jungler if Riot changed his E to deal more damage to monsters, and his passive to make monsters drop extra souls.

Tristana Before the remake, she could be used both as a late game hypercarry ADC or as an early/mid game AP assassin. Now she can still be built as an AP assassin, but due to the changes, this build is probably no longer viable.

Tryndamere Can be built with AP due to the scaling on his heal and his E.

TwistedFate Although most of time built as an mid laner AP burst/poke mage, he can also be built as an ADC, or as an AD on-hit jungler.

Varus He can be built as an ADC, as an AD poke caster, or as an AP nuke mage.

Velkoz Can go support or full AP.

Few people know, but she can go top as sorta like an Triforce bruiser, just like Jax/Irelia/AD Fizz

Warwick He can go as an AD off-tank, or as an AP assassin; this AP assassin build was much more viable when Deathfire Grasp existed.

MonkeyKing Can be built as a full tank, as an AD bruiser, or as an AD assassin.

XinZhao Can go AD or AP.

Zyra She can go mid lane too, despite most people building her as an AP support.

Meeks011Jun 19, 20154 votes

Draven can play any role to 100%. Support Draven, ADC Draven (the worst one IMO), AP mid Draven, Tank top Draven, and jungle Draven.

"Draven does it all... with style."

Mob Psycho 100Jun 18, 20158 votes

Fizz is the same thing. Except flash isnt needed on fizz.

ChaoticPineconeJun 18, 20157 votes

Fizz doesnt have a non-ult AoE CC though, and only has 1 slow in his kit.

Mob Psycho 100Jun 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Fizz doesnt have a non-ult AoE CC though, and only has 1 slow in his kit.

Except his E is AoE Slow, and he technically has 2. Ult and E.

ChaoticPineconeJun 19, 20152 votes

Oops - i goofed. i made that statement a little rushed. i meant that Fizz doesnt have a non-ult AoE hard CC in his kit, and only has 1 slow in his non-ult kit. Thats opposed to Ekko, who has 3 slows and a AoE stun in his basic abilities.

Auz the RipperJun 19, 20153 votes

And even then, Fizz's slow requires he wait .75 (Counterbalanced by the larger radius though) and more importantly sacrifice half of playful/trickster's dash

Meeks011Jun 19, 20151 votes

A Fizz killed me from 100 to 0 with 74 AP and one burst. All he had was a Sheen.

ChaoticPineconeJun 19, 20153 votes

It depends on how many autoattacks that Fizz gets off during that 100-0, as thats where a lot of his damage comes from (which is why tank/ad bruiser fizz exists). Ekko has a similar passive - it only kicks in at 30% HP but there is no DoT part of the attack modifier, so its better in some situations and worse in others.

but its honestly besides the point. My point is that Fizz and Ekko do not provide the same amounts of utility, even if they both do a ton of damage.

SoMNiaJun 19, 20158 votes

No, no, no.

He can be a tank, OR he can (almost) be an assassin. He cannot do both. There is nothing wrong with a champion having multiple viable build options. In fact, it's desirable.

IcyPepperJun 18, 20156 votes

Having different building paths isn't necessarily overloaded, but being overloaded can lead to different build paths.

I mean, several melee champions like Vi (in her defense, she doesn't have a W active, so she does trade something for that passive) can be built somewhere between tanky and damage-y to fit the game they're in and the situation.

I don't argue that Ekko isn't overloaded, just that he has counterplay and it's pretty reasonable. Does that justify him being overloaded? Not really, but all I wanted to do was say that it's not uncommon for melee champions to have different ways to build.

Meeks011Jun 19, 20151 votes

(in her defense, she doesn't have a W active, so she does trade something for that passive)

What about Gnar? And Diana? Gnar has the max health damage + movement speed. Diana has just the flat damage as AOE. Vi has max health damage, gains attack speed, and reduces enemy's armor.

IcyPepperJun 19, 20152 votes

Diana has a shield, deals magic damage per orb, and then gets the shield refreshed if she lands all the orbs that stacks with the current shield. Gnar also happens to be ranged though, not melee unless in mega form.

Yeah, Vi's W could be a little less, but at least it's not a passive on top of an active. That's all I was saying.

SammystormJun 19, 20155 votes

I don't exactly see what is wrong with a champion being able to perform in several different roles. Champions that are problems are not ones that can effectively do two different things but champs that can do two or more things at the same time effectively.

Original QuitterJun 18, 20153 votes

See Katarina

At one time she was the exact same thing, Tank Kat was a thing.

freepointzsJun 18, 201532 votes

Tank Katarina was less about her kit being overloaded.

At the time she had high base damages and people built her tank to make it easier/more reliable to abuse her resets.

With Ekko it's because his kit is legitimately overloaded.

Original QuitterJun 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Tank Katarina was less about her kit being overloaded.

At the time she had high base damages and people built her tank to make it easier/more reliable to abuse her resets.

With Ekko it's because his kit is legitimately overloaded.

Mmmm your logic eludes me.

So kat, who can dash around just as much or more than ekko, ward hop, and had a run buff with overloaded base stats, and insta cool downs on her skills from kill/assist is some how not as overloaded as a champ who has a small dash that can not target a ward and...................has to hit someone at least 3 times to really get out his damage.

I think you guys just all hate Ekko cause people are to lazy to watch out for his ult.

No matter what you do to Ekko he will always be strong, there is onyl 1 way to properly nerf him and that is to nerf the wave clear on his Q.

He is strong cause bad players can get good farm just like Zed and Leblanc, same issue it is their ease of CSing that makes these champs strong. Leblanc was unplayed for nearly a year, then someone was like I can take my dash instead of q and clear an entire minion wave with a single skill?

Oh SNAP now she is played to death.

It's the CS guys; it gives people a huge advantage when you have a champ that even a cat walking across a keyboard can clear a wave with versus a champ like lux who can barely clear a wave with a single skill with a max build.

freepointzsJun 18, 201534 votes

Your mixing up overloaded and overpowered. In Katarina's case she was overpowered during the tankarina era. Her numbers were too high which is why she was abusing a tank build. The numbers were lowered and ratio's raised and tankarina died as a result.

In Ekko's case it's overloaded. He is being played in multiple roles at the same time, and excelling at them precisely because his kit has so much in it. He can go tank due to his CC and utility; things neccessary for tanks to excel. He is also destroying as an assassin because he has the mobility and damage of an assassin to allow him to burst.

And to be clear here, there is a difference between ekko and tankarina when it comes to tankyness. Katarina was being built TANKY but she was not a tank. A tank's role is engage for a team as well as peel through cc. Kat has no cc to speak up and she can't engage for a team (she can engage for herself only). In Ekko's case he is being built as a tank and fulfilling the role of tank for a team through his engage and cc.

It's why you wouldn't classify a caitlyn for example who is built full tank, as the same as a malphite being full tank. Their both tanky but only one can fulfill the tanks job of engage/peel/cc/etc.

Meeks011Jun 19, 201510 votes

He has way too much CC for being an assassin. People say that tanks are all OP because of CC but to be honest, there's more CC on Ekko than most tanks.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 19, 20151 votes

So the guy below says it pretty well, but there is a big difference between too much damage and too much utility with damage.

Kat just kills people, she doesn't help her team kill people. When her damage is high without items she can build tank and still be a damage threat bc if her team gets even one kill she starts resetting. Ekko has damage, but has a stun and I want to say something else (been a while since I had to play against one where anything mattered but his ult) and can make his team stronger at killing people and not just rely on the team to provide resets.

LordGeovanniJun 19, 20154 votes

ekkos w takes a literal 3 seconds to set up if you get caught that means you play by your opponents tempo or you play in highly predictable patterns either way its a problem with you (a good way to counter it is when you see ekko use it with his alternate clone getting ready to bat if you have been staying back before you should imediately take the fight to him before he brings it to you. and if you ahve been engageing him you should back off if he tries to hold his ground cause thats most likely where the stun feild is gonna be. you only have use use your brain a little and a little psychology.) on the other hand ekkos ult has a litteral do not walk here indicator its enough that they even show you the ghost rather than makeing you remember where ekko was 4 seconds ago and his movement pattern how much do you want riot to hold your hand. i think the slow and speed up on ekkos passive is nice and acurate representation of his character but ekkos q e and r already does high damage there is no need for a passive that does equal amount of damage to an active spell of an assassin and its up every 3 seconds where is the assassination in that.

AbodyHUN666Jun 19, 20152 votes

The problem is, they gave him 2 very unreliable skills (stun and ult) so they gave him huge rewards for hitting them, then gave the rest of his kit enough power to still be able to fight (though not as well) after missing both the stun and the ult damage part. People already hate on Morgana's binding, Ekko has the same duration stun with AOE. And he has the range to set the stun up out of sight, then blink in at the last moment.

Mandang0Jun 18, 20152 votes

I don't think it's really any different. Take some of Ekko's utility and exchange it for damage, take some of his shields/heals and exchange it for damage... now he looks like Kat did. Both of their kits are/were overbudgeted, Kat's power was just distributed more obviously.

RueianJun 18, 20151 votes

To some point you have to argue execution difficulty vs power.

Yung WakbothJun 19, 20151 votes

The issue with that is that at the highest levels people can be expected to play near perfectly. All of the recently released champs are good examples of high power in exchange for high difficulty, and all of them are top of the line picks in pro play.

It was the whole Lee Sin thing way back when he first started getting nerfed. He was too hard to really show his power but once people started playing him to his potential he was pretty much everywhere at high levels of play. Releasing champs like that (how many recent champs have they released that wouldn't fall under that? Ekko yes, Bard yes, Rek'sai maybe not so much, Kalista yes, Azir yes, Gnar yes, all popular picks at high level) eclipses other choices.

RueianJun 19, 20152 votes

unlike most of them though, look at the difficulty of ekko's ultimate when used for damage not healing or escape, aswell as using his W for more than just a shield. His Dash and projectile and passive are a bit too strong though.

JariJun 19, 20153 votes

Okay, who argued he wasn't overtuned? Sure, his kit is powerful and it did need a bit of a tap, but there's no way we can stop him from being Overtuned at this point. I even kept telling people he isn't overpowered, just overtuned. You give anyone too much of course they're going to seem powerful. I think lowering his base damages might help benefit that? As he has a lot of base damage to use, which is why tank-ekko is so rewarding.

DengedenJun 19, 20153 votes

He's only played as a tank because he's a flex pick. Have you seen him perform as a tank? It's sub-par to say the least. Luckily for him, LCS junglers aren't supposed to offer anything but utility and damage soaking later on.