As a varus main Kalista is the biggest slap in the face

freepointzs··157 votes·8,485 views

As a utility adc varus actually has weaknesses to compensate his utility. Ashe is the same way. Yet for whatever reason kalista gets the same kind of utility but without any of the weaknesses.

Ashe and varus are on the lower end of the adc damage scale. Kalista gets an uncapped stacking damage e that can wreck teams and gives her unparalleled objective control. Ashe and varus get absolutely no mobility what so ever. You know because having access to great utility/cc as an adc would be stupid on a champion with some mobility.

Kalista has the most mobility of any adc in this game! F*cking vayne who's MO is the assassin/adc archetype with lots of mobility looks like an anivia when it comes to mobility.

Its the same old shit we have seen with champions like lee and yasuo. High damage and mobility on top of utility.

Why the bloody hell would I pick a champion who has to pay for his utility with no mobility when I could just pick Kalista who does the exact same thing except better; on top of having access to the most ridiculous mobility this side of Kassadin.

144 Comments

NotDevan92 votes

Welcome to CertainlyT, where weaknesses and design values are thrown out the window for #LC$BIGPLAYS, 20 dashes, and a passive on every ability.

mi ramfan24 votes

Don't confuse "overpowered at this particular moment" for bad design.

Kalista does have clear-cut strengths and weaknesses. Her autoattacks are very clunky in the laning phase, forcing her to use Rend to CS. Her ult and W have anti-synergy issues; you want a ranged champion to proc her W, but melee tank supports use her ult much more effectively. Her early game trading has the damage fully backended, so you can easily poke her without much retaliation.

Is she overpowered right now? For sure. But I'd say that has more to do with the lack of a Rend cap on minions than anything else. The way people are playing her with Runaans is barely even an ADC build because it's not single target focused. She's very different from every other champion, just like most of CertainlyT's champions have been, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

chumbler32 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gLccq07k,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T06:06:50.606+0000)

Don't confuse "overpowered at this particular moment" for bad design.

Kalista does have clear-cut strengths and weaknesses. Her autoattacks are very clunky in the laning phase, forcing her to use Rend to CS. Her ult and W have anti-synergy issues; you want a ranged champion to proc her W, but melee tank supports use her ult much more effectively. Her early game trading has the damage fully backended, so you can easily poke her without much retaliation.

Is she overpowered right now? For sure. But I'd say that has more to do with the lack of a Rend cap on minions than anything else. The way people are playing her with Runaans is barely even an ADC build because it's not single target focused. She's very different from every other champion, just like most of CertainlyT's champions have been, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Nobody's confusing bad design for anything else. Kalista, like every certainlyt champion, is bad design.

DomainSpecific5 votes

{quoted}

Nobody's confusing bad design for anything else. Kalista, like every certainlyt champion, is bad design.

Would you call Zyra or Zed bad design? Honestly, Zed would be totally balanced if they just nerfed his wave clearing (making his passive not proc on minions, and/or reducing his Q/E damage on minions) and Zyra is pretty balanced & fun to play.

Captain Aishi3 votes

I consider zyra's ult to be a pretty good example of bad design... giant AOE knockup spell cast from range... it ignores banshee's veil!

DomainSpecific22 votes

Giant AOE knockup spell... that takes 2 seconds to snap.

There's plenty of counterplay. Only thing I personally dislike is that the damage is dealt fully before the knock up (I would prefer the damage to be dealt when the unit is knocked), but the spell would feel too weak if it was like that.

mi ramfan12 votes

Would you mind elaborating on why you think she's bad design?

I don't find her mobility to be inherently toxic, and I think that her soul bond design is very compelling and one of the most innovative things to hit this game in a long time. Rest of her kit is design neutral IMO, neither good nor bad.

Please help me better understand your point of view so that we can both make arguments that could change each others' minds.

DomainSpecific69 votes

I can try to explain it to you.

Literally all melee characters without many dashes are unusable against her. One champion shouldn't make a whole class obsolete.

Also, she has perma chase. If she finds you, you are not getting away. Shaco/Skarner were nerfed because they perma-slowed you, and "it felt really shitty to not being able to escape after they hit you once". Kalista is exactly this.

I enjoy all the other abilities, especially her limitless E, but her passive is terribly designed.

Leti the Yeti3 votes

well, I would say her perma kite and perma chase comes down to how much attack speed she has these people have perma slows tho Nasus Zilean Nunu and permachase Udyr ..even kalistas gonna want capped attack speed to run from this mofo

DomainSpecific18 votes

Udyr is balanced because he is melee + he can't go up walls. Kalista got her Q in case you want to go through walls.

Nunu/Nasus are melee, so their perma slow is kind of OK (I am not too happy with Nasus' specifically, but w/e). Zilean is getting reworked soon because he is unbalanceable (either too weak or too strong) in his current form.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

What's wrong with Nasus slow? I was going to make a thread about adding movement speed to his Ult but didn't know how to balance it around W.

LeeDark2 votes

At 40% CDR, which any good Nasus tries to get quickly, his Wither becomes, essentially, spammable.

FastAsHeck10 votes

and permachase Udyr ..even kalistas gonna want capped attack speed to run from this mofo

actually kali has no problem escaping udyr, well by the time udyr catches her he will be at 20%hp

Tentacle Love5 votes

{quoted}

actually kali has no problem escaping udyr, well by the time udyr catches her he will be at 20%hp

As far as I can tell, Kalista is the only champion that can outrun Udyr, when he's chasing you.

mi ramfan13 votes

Permachase and permakite, as you call them, are actually central to her balance and kit in general. Notice that Kalista has a very inconsistent, teamwork-dependent steroid and poor damages on her abilities with the exception of a high stack count E. In order to stack up E that high, Kalista must have been fighting you for a long time; that's where the balance point comes in, similar to how Singed can't do lethal damage unless you chase him through poison for a long time. If you manage to escape or forced her to back out with your own damage, then her fully-backloaded E will do significantly less damage.

To top it off, Kalista's mobility is 100% combat-oriented and has no usability outside of combat. Notice how her. martial poise jumps have increased range when she's jumping away from you. That isn't just to help her escape , it's a counterplay mechanic as well. If Kalista is jumping away from you and you back out, Kalista has no way of getting back in on you unless she has another target she can attack.

In a sense, both of you have to "consent" to that long melee vs Kalista chase for it to happen. She signals that she wants to force the chase by jumping directly away from the fight. However, the chase doesn't happen unless you, the melee, choose to go for the chase. If you chase, you're essentially gambling that whatever tools you have will be able to halt and kill Kalista before she can rack up a lethal amount of E stacks. You have the ability to back out at any point, and if you back out while she keeps jumping away, she's out of the fight.

So clearly Kalista's optimal position for damage is right on the edges of the fight, darting around to avoid damage while dealing her own. However, by doing this, she puts herself at inherent risk due to her low range. Since she doesn't have the steroids of someone like Vayne to make up for that risk, she has no choice but to spec into that E with the Runaans to maximize her damage.

And that's where the brilliance in Kalista's design comes in: she's not really an AD carry in the truest sense of the word. AD carries have always been historically defined by their late game SINGLE TARGET DPS, yet Kalista doesn't really have it like other ADs do without proper coordination. She HAS to be dancing around the edge with Runaans, or she can't do enough damage to play the role!

The dashes will become less of the problem as people learn that Kalista is like Singed: don't chase. She's still overtuned right now, but her design shows great forethought and has much more counterplay then people will usually give it credit for.

DomainSpecific34 votes

First of all, thanks for keeping the discussion civil. I wish more people were able to present their points of view in this organized matter.

Now, while I agree with certain parts of your argument, I still have some issues.

"Kalista mobility is 100% combat-oriented". Not fully true, for her Q allows her to jump even without a target, and even go through walls.

"You have the ability to back out at any point, and if you back out while she keeps jumping away, she's out of the fight.". If you back, she can activate her E and slow you, allowing her to catch up with you again. Or she can use her Q and dash back to you again.

"The dashes will become less of the problem as people learn that Kalista is like Singed: don't chase". The thing is that Singed still has a timeframe where he can be chased: when his ult is down. Kalista's passive cannot be deactivated, only reduced by slowing her attack speed. Therefore, it is way more frustrating and has less counterplay.

That's just my point of view. She has a very interesting concept, but it is extremely frustrating to play against her.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

{quoted}

I can try to explain it to you.

Literally all melee characters without many dashes are unusable against her. One champion shouldn't make a whole class obsolete.

Also, she has perma chase. If she finds you, you are not getting away. Shaco/Skarner were nerfed because they perma-slowed you, and "it felt really shitty to not being able to escape after they hit you once". Kalista is exactly this.

I enjoy all the other abilities, especially her limitless E, but her passive is terribly designed.

That has more to do with general state of immobile melee characters in this game than with Kalista. She's just a final nail in the coffin before the fighter rework comes in 2030.

She's actually pretty balanced by herself. Yes, she has perm chase but far from being only one. Yes, she can outsmite objectives but it will generally take 15-20 AAs first minimum, which people who complain conveniently tend to forget. Half of her kit is reliant on her support, she lacks steroids and is required to build up for her nuke.

Yes, she is OP as hell in LCS. But that was expected. You have a champion who really shines in coordinated team. No shit she'll be really powerful when used by most coordinated teams in the world.

Nameless Voice8 votes

"pretty balanced by herself"

Every champion is pretty balanced by themselves. Balance is about relative strengths. If your sample size is 1, then your champion will never be stronger (or weaker) than the no one else you are considering.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gLccq07k,comment-id=0000000000000001000000020000,timestamp=2015-02-13T19:47:43.445+0000)

"pretty balanced by herself"

Every champion is pretty balanced by themselves. Balance is about relative strengths. If your sample size is 1, then your champion will never be stronger (or weaker) than the no one else you are considering.

Compared to melees without an instant gap closer who so often get brought as an argument against Kalista. Nerfing kalista won't magically make Taric or Galio see play suddenly.

Icy Auron4 votes

Ironically, nerfed Kalista would decrease the amount of play Galio sees. Galio is suddenly a viable support because of his amazing synergy with Kalista.

Vivid Mandala6 votes

{quoted}

Welcome to CertainlyT, where weaknesses and design values are thrown out the window for #LC$BIGPLAYS, 20 dashes, and a passive on every ability.

Glorious isn't it? Progress! Evolution! :P

MrSlowDie44 votes

and when I thought we have enough very mobile ADC

Vayne Lucian

here comes

Kalista

Yfrappefort35 votes

Kalista pretty much invalidate Varus, Ashe and Twitch all by herself. She also makes the mobility of Lucian and Vayne seems like a joke now. What a retarded champion...

rtbf2091425551 votes

I agree wit the ashe and varus part but twitch fulfills a whole different niche than kalista does man.

Silestrio2 votes

He is saying that kalista invalidates twitch since her e is way better version of his e which is a core part of his kit. Although Twitch isn't affected by her as much as varus and ashe.

Vicarious11735 votes

So I'm not going to say she's "OP" or anything, cause she honestly has a horrendous laning phase and almost all other adc's can beat her 1v1, but that being said....

She is conceptually the worst freakin champ in the game! High sustained damage, high burst damage (uncapped burst infact!), high utility, high mobility to the point if you're melee YOU CAN'T EVEN FIGHT HER, and loads of passive synergy with her team. I mean sure almost all the other adc's can beat her 1v1, but none of them can offer the same teamfighting presence as her and essentially ONLY other adc's can even hope to fight her without hard as shit cc! She's like the fanfiction Mary-sue of who ever originally designed her over in Riot.....

Again I don't think she's necessarily OP, but whoever thought of her concept should never again be allowed to even help with the creation of champions.

ThePlasticSpork13 votes

Kalista is pretty obnoxious.

Even ignoring the multitude of annoying things in her kit, her design doesn't make any sense and has no cohesion.

Varus is very strictly a poke/utility ADC, Ashe is very strictly a kite/utility ADC, Ez has poke/mobility, most ADCs fall into some combination of 2 different categories.

Enter Kalista, who has no given identity and a mishmash of everything. Her Q is poke, her W is burst, her E suggests she benefits from extended trades, and her ult and W active implies utility. Finally, her passive implies kite.

What the hell? What is she supposed to specifically do? Her kit doesn't form a thematic or cohesive whole.

Nucleophilic atk7 votes

She is supposed to make #LC$BIGPLAY$. Her kit is designed perfectly to do so.

Rynth9 votes

Hate to interrupt the circlejerk, but kalista pays heavily for the utility. She gets less attack speed than listed due to her jumps, is not able to cancel auto attacks, misses when enemies enter fog of war, and has no damage on her w and ult. This results in a lower damage output than most carries. She has an extremely high burst potential, but the e only gains 30% + 32 damage per auto even at max rank. That's very weak as far as adc steroids go - yes it's uncapped, but you really have to treat it more like an on-hit steroid. And yeah she's more mobile than any other champ, but that's the compensation for choosing her gimped damage over someone like draven. As for why you'd pick varus over kalista, varus is a niche pick for saving your team against engage while kalista saves herself against kitable comps. They've both got their own roles as counterpicks, and neither is overpowered in the current patch.

Vicarious11723 votes

So like I said, very bad against other ranged carries and champs, but almost immune to melee champs who can't hard cc her for a while or 100-0 her.

It's not a good trade off is the thing, it's always going to be unhealthy for either Kalista or her opponent, either she has no way to counter play her opponent or her opponent has no way to counter play her! Conceptually she is a horrendously designed champ.

But yes, like I have said before, she isn't "OP" due to this unhealthy trade off of gameplay.

SmokinSickStyle9 votes

"We should have CerT design and balance all the champions"

If everybody is overpowered, nobody is overpowered.

(Cit. from someone on the forums\boards)

Old Man Teeto9 votes

Khalista's "weakneses" are point-click abilities.

....

Riot is phasing those out of the game.

Annie Run away little girl.... run away!

Thelmon8 votes

If they made it so that Runaan's didn't apply rend stacks, I think that would make her a lot less gimicky and better to play against.

Chocolatine7 votes

As someone who prefers to play squishy mage supports her ultimate has to be one of the most frustrating thing to deal it. It breaks your flow and forces you to reposition yourself. Chances are that I'm sitting where I want to be and getting pulled away can be incredibly frustrating. On the opposite end of the spectrum however playing against her ultimate is also anti-fun as it can basically be use as a "Get out of jail free" card whenever the soulbound is in trouble. I've seen several people can caught out stupidly only to be saved by a Kalista simply walking by, and unlike a thresh lantern you can't simply CC them so they can't take it. Another gripe that I've got with the soulbound mechanic is that it forces you to stick with your adc and babysit her. Yes I get that my main role in a team fight is to peel for the carry, but if I want to roam I shouldn't be gating a good portion of their kit. This is annoying for both the support and the Kalista as the support finds their playstyle limited by arbitrary responsibility and the Kalista finds a good portion of her kit blocked whenever the support is away. I don't think I need to elaborate on why uncapped damage is simply dumb when it comes to objective control. While dashing every auto might not be inherently toxic, in the state where it is at the moment (Long dashes unaffected by slows), it makes it very difficult for melee champion to compete against Kalista.

That being said, Kalista isn't a sum of bad ideas, it's a sum of good ideas executed poorly. The stacking mechanic on rend could be cool if it capped, the dashes would be fine if there was more option to counterplay, and the soulbound mechanic could have been done better (and has been done better in other game).

Alëk7 votes

Kalista with red buff is HELL.

FastAsHeck6 votes

i really dont get riot. Lucian gets nerfed to oblivion, loses range and damage but becomes the "super mobile adc" with more mobility than every other adc in the game... and then they release Kalista , who just kicks lucian out of the window because there is really no reason to pick lucian anymore instead of her. i think the kit itself is good, except the passive... kalista right now can kite better than ashe, with more damage, and is impossible to hit with AOE even when shes not even trying to dodge it. her ult and w passive that require teamwork are nice things though, but why can a "teamwork based" adc 1v1 every other adc in the game?

FastAsHeck5 votes

but why can a "teamwork based" adc 1v1 every other adc in the game?

with that i mean that even without her support which is supposed to be a large part of her damage, she is still better than ok in an 1v1 scenario.

cFlame2 votes

They only nerfed Lucian because Kalista would come by soon to take his place and take all of the desperado's money.

ThatAutofillSupp6 votes

i dont know about you but whenever i see a kalista rush runnan's and I'm a melee i cringe …. its so annoying that she's almost impossible to catch and Her E stacks infinitely so Ontop of being able to kite well with runnans it gives her free damage with her E

Champion Skin5 votes

Oh and the runnans will put bolts into minions around you and when she uses E she then will likely kill some minions and refresh E cooldown so she can slow you several times just in case all of her dashes wasn't enough to get away/kite

SlackerboyTC5 votes

Kalista is definitely in no way shape or form underpowered or even balanced, she just has too much mobility for the damage and utility she gets while every other character on the adc side gets completely outclassed, it definitely isn't fair to people who like other AD carries and I would have no fun playing against an opponent I know can do nothing to me cuz I can just kite the hell out of them.

LycopolisKing3 votes

Not gonna lie, as an Ashe main, I thought I could deal with Kalista, but I was really wrong. -___-

Champion Skin2 votes

Well Kalista has a dash in her Q or auto attack to doge Ashe ult and slows has almost no effect as she dashes just as fast and far with each auto attack/Q And Kalista would out damage Ashe in extended trades with her E I would guess? I am not sure what is best in short trades? Kalista W (passive if proced) or Ashe passive? Though I guess Kalista W passive proc is available more often in that it has a shorter cooldown and can't be used/wasted on minions

Though Ashe would most certainly beat Kalista in poke (Though I guess Kalista can poke with Q which can also be sent through minions on low health)

Do not that I neither play Kalista nor Ashe and that this is simply theoretical

CooLTanG3 votes

Tryndamere can never mocking shout her either, she is always facing him.

Gigahappytown1 votes

>varus >utility ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Alëk3 votes

{quoted}

>varus >utility ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

He has a Hard CC Ult that can be spread to teammates making it very useful in teamfights. He also has a AoE slow that gives reduced healing and some of the best poke amongst adc's. Utility m8

Dominick Destine3 votes

He has a Hard CC Ult that can be spread to teammates making it very useful in teamfights. He also has a AoE slow that gives reduced healing and some of the best poke amongst adc's. Utility m8

Snare is not a hard disable.

X Frady2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gLccq07k,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T18:56:42.276+0000)

Snare is not a hard disable.

Morgana says hi

PatMcGroyn1 votes

To be fair, Varus' poke is better.

ThatAutofillSupp5 votes

Yeah.. if he can hit a champion who basically dashes every second

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