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So after Ekko is it time to admit Riot can't make a healthy assassin

freepointzs··129 votes·7,808 views

And just so were clear I am not talking about OP or UP. But actually healthy gameplay wise in terms of counterplay and design.

I mean when the poster boy for healthy champion design for assassins is ZED of all champions you know there is an issue. Because zed himself violated plenty of champion design philosophies...specifically manaless waveclear and poke from an all in champion. I mean can someone name me an assassin that actually feels good to face or who is well designed?

It isn't Katarina with her snowballing resets and no mana to gate her spamming Talon's a ball of stats who either insta burst you down in 1 second or dies Leblancs the definition of low risk high reward with her point and click burst and ridiculous mobility Anyone going to suggest fizz is healthy and fun to face?

And its not like assassins are impossible to create with a healthy yet effective kit. plenty of moba's have suceeded with that. The issue is Riot's design philosophy when it comes to assassins. Assassins are supposed to be high risk high reward champions who need to choose smart engagements and carefully sneak across the battlefield so they can get the backline.

In league of legends assassins are just highly mobile burst mages who dumpster tons of damage in an instant. Their basically annies with mobility. So when assassins are strong they smother burst mages out of the meta because what's the point of choosing a burst mage without mobility when you can choose one with mobility.

If Riot actually wants to make an assassin that is healthy for this game they need to go away from their current pattern of design where assassins are defined by high burst and high mobility. As mobility in and of itself removes a lot of risks with champions and the insta burst is obnoxious to deal with when that champion can gap close instantaneously (to bring back the annie analogy imagine an annie with flash up every 6-10 seconds as that basically what assassins get with their low cooldown blinks/dashes/jumps/etc).

Instead they should design an assassin whose core gameplay is around skirmishing and guirella tactics. Using mobility to dodge in and out of a fight to slowly exhaust the enemy teams health bars until he's ready to strike. No more 100-0 burst. As that stuff is a pain in the ass enough with a non-mobile champion like syndra whose range is static and easily played around unlike a LB or fizz who can attack from anywhere as well as dodge to safety.

Besides doing this might actually allow traditional burst mages to be viable. Champions like brand, mid annie, anivia, or malzahar might see LCS play because their niche of AP burst isn't being smothered by a more mobile version of them. (And really when's the last time a burst mage has been LCS viable. It's basically been viktor this year and syndra last year and that's it.)

I just think it's time to reavaluate assassin design. As currently is is fun to play as and watch an assassin. But absolute hell to face one.

233 Comments

DrCyanide65 votes

I'm personally a fan of Assassin design that doesn't involve mashing QWER in a specific order as fast as you can. I'm a bigger fan of "Assassin" design that doesn't regularly involve Pentakills (looking at you Kat).

As odd as this might be, I actually think Shaco's a decently designed Assassin, simply because he's not competing with the Burst Mages. He's got one burst ability, his Q. Once he uses that, he's out of burst. Instead of burst, he relies on positioning to cause the most damage. Part of that is that Backstab is so vital to his damage output, part is that people tend to freak out when a Shaco suddenly pops out right next to them and delivers a massive crit, and part of it is the delay on his W and his Ultimate.

Is he annoying if played right? You bet! But I think he's actually in a pretty good spot as far as what his kit lets him do and what Assassins should be doing.

TheSlappySlap7 votes

I agree. Shaco has gone through phases of terribly OP and terribly UP as well, but with the new tougher jungle he's in a pretty good spot now.

Also it's his E that is burst not is Q.

Cindikle6 votes

I assume he's talking about AD.

Which sounds very scary when done right.

Full crit damage page(45.51%) IE(80AD, 50% crit damage) Hydra(75AD) CDR boots Last Whisper(40AD) TF(30AD)

379.48 AD(including masteries). Q will do 378.612% damage with backstab. This will do 1436.76 damage. TF will add 234 damage to that. E will follow up doing 566.976 magic damage. 2003.736 total damage

It's nothing to make Talon or Zed jealous, but it has little warning and staying to fight him will only evoke Jib's and clones. This also doesn't include dragon buff or a 6th item. Although to compare Talon will do about 2417 damage with this same setup(includes 2aa and TF). While Shaco is only about 200 under while having mixed damage(probably hurts more than helps in this case). Talon would probably be building Rageblade over IE too and something else over TF. Shaco doesn't require his ulti for this combo either. He can place a JiB to ensure his escape, Q in, AA+E his target then walk out. R if needed.

It's interesting but VERY item heavy. Jungle Shaco would need a huge lead to make this work. And lane Shaco is no cakewalk.

On the other hand AP Shaco. Lichbane(80AP, 50% AP on AA, 87.75magic damage on AA at level 18) Ludens(100+15%AP magic damage, 120AP) sorc boots Void Staff(70AP) Hourglass(120AP) Deathcap(120AP)

726.18AP

Q will do 309 physcial and 585 magic damage(lichbane+mastery) E will do 1374 magic damage 2268 total damage. But this is including a full 6 item build vs AD's 5. Although this AP has more of it's mixed damage into magic allowing his penetration to work. And now thinking, I forgot runes for AP.

It's very comparable in terms of burst. AD will be the better split pusher/dueler and AP will make better use of clone explosions and JiB's.

Should be enough typing for a post I meant to leave that the first line.

Edit: Forgot Hydra's active on AD. Adding another ~150 damage. Might be enough to put AD above AP. Any additional AA's(which 1-2 should be almost expected depending on target's mobility) also make him even better as AD for assassin.

Tabs15 votes

{quoted}

I'm personally a fan of Assassin design that doesn't involve mashing QWER in a specific order as fast as you can. I'm a bigger fan of "Assassin" design that doesn't regularly involve Pentakills (looking at you Kat).

As odd as this might be, I actually think Shaco's a decently designed Assassin, simply because he's not competing with the Burst Mages. He's got one burst ability, his Q. Once he uses that, he's out of burst. Instead of burst, he relies on positioning to cause the most damage. Part of that is that Backstab is so vital to his damage output, part is that people tend to freak out when a Shaco suddenly pops out right next to them and delivers a massive crit, and part of it is the delay on his W and his Ultimate.

Is he annoying if played right? You bet! But I think he's actually in a pretty good spot as far as what his kit lets him do and what Assassins should be doing.

I am probably going to be a little bit biased, but I totally agree. Shaco is a _very _ strategic assassin, that's why hes often regarded as difficult. He has the tools to deal with many situations, but if he uses that skill wrong (wastes ultimate, uses Q wrong) he will be punished for it... hard. He does not get an "insta fix" button, he usually ends up dying. High risk, high reward.

Chessburger2 votes

Shaco's the only champion in this game that keeps my interest. As sad as that may sound I get sick of every other champion after a while but I always come back to shaco. There's just so much you can do with him and at the same time it's all about you outsmarting the opponent. You're playing mini games inside of mini games inside of the game itself...

I don't know how to explain it for someone who knows exactly what the champion is capable of he's really easy to play against, but then there's the 1 in a hundred that tears you a new one and shows you another aspect of the champion... You just go "Mad props dude, mad props..." There's a whole lot more forethought for every action you take when playing as or against shaco compared to say riot's posterboys of healthy assassin designs.

End of my 2am rambling...

It Hertz When IP13 votes

Shaco requires actual skill to play. I have never died to a Shaco and thought "that's BS", it's always "damn, I screwed X up". He can be countered with playstyle alone most of the time, good map awareness the rest of the time, but if you screw up he can deal serious damage. Playing him requires quite a bit of skill and thinking. I'd label HIM as the healthiest assassin in the game right now.

SociopathFriend3 votes

While I agree with most of that, I do think Shaco jungle used to be really unhealthy in that he would get level 2 for no real risk and invade and murder the enemy jungler without fail.

And the worst part was even if he didn't do that, the mere threat of him doing that will slow the jungler down by making them back often to ensure they stay healthy. That was my impression a while ago anyways, since then the Tank meta kicked in so I don't know where he sits now.

It Hertz When IP5 votes

He isn't like that anymore, prevalence of tankier junglers means that if he jumps the enemy jungler he has even odds of getting his ass kicked.

Jarrito2322 votes

You hate Ekko, but like Shaco? The champion that has a blink/invisibility/insta-crit on one ability? You have got to be shitting me. You get free wards, and an amazing escape if things go wrong. He also has an invincibility ability(something that people whine about on Fizz and Ekko, but its ok on Shaco.)

DrCyanide12 votes

{quoted}

You hate Ekko, but like Shaco? The champion that has a blink/invisibility/insta-crit on one ability?

Yes. What other damage does he have? That's it. Everything on one ability, and if it's on cooldown he's dead in the water.

You get free wards

Utility that, unless you're going AP, doesn't contribute directly to a kill. Useful, but only if you use the information to position accordingly.

and an amazing escape if things go wrong.

Only an amazing escape if you don't use it to go in or if you're able survive 11 seconds in the enemy team.

He also has an invincibility ability(something that people whine about on Fizz and Ekko, but its ok on Shaco.)

Imagine that, a 0.75 second invincibility on a 16 second cooldown (at longest) is hated more than a 0.5 second invincibility on a 80 second cooldown (at shortest)!

fractalfantasies3 votes

{quoted}

I'm personally a fan of Assassin design that doesn't involve mashing QWER in a specific order as fast as you can. I'm a bigger fan of "Assassin" design that doesn't regularly involve Pentakills (looking at you Kat).

As odd as this might be, I actually think Shaco's a decently designed Assassin, simply because he's not competing with the Burst Mages. He's got one burst ability, his Q. Once he uses that, he's out of burst. Instead of burst, he relies on positioning to cause the most damage. Part of that is that Backstab is so vital to his damage output, part is that people tend to freak out when a Shaco suddenly pops out right next to them and delivers a massive crit, and part of it is the delay on his W and his Ultimate.

Is he annoying if played right? You bet! But I think he's actually in a pretty good spot as far as what his kit lets him do and what Assassins should be doing.

Good post.

Shaco is one of the few 'assassins' who actually feels as if he is an assassin. It's based on strategy and decision making rather than memorizing a combo.

Frost the Reaper20 votes

I'd like to say that you could make a healthy assassin, but... You honestly can't. As Narasimha stated, how do you make someone healthy when its their job to delete a priority target in an instant? Don't get me wrong I'm sure I could design an assassin who'd be like this, however this means They'd have to have a lot of utility spells and ... well idk 1 damage ult? Meaning they'd probably be useless in early game.

PokladnicaZla30 votes

The biggest problem is the missperception that assassins should be able to delete high priority targets in 1 sec.Assassins should be sneaky,mobile and high single target damage characters,which catch enemies off guard(while waiting for the perfect moment to strike).Nearly all assassins players aren't patient about that,they only want to kill every target without waiting or checking the map to see where the other enemies are.They are just yolo players,that proclaim every assassin OP which can't instakill a squshy when jumping 1vs5.

I don't know if anybody noticed,but Rengo became a one-shoter again.His ability to jump on somebody and delete them in 1 sec isn't really healthy or fun for the other player.

Their weaknesess should be like(some of them atleast): only singel target damage,low amounts of CC,bad wave clear compared to other champions,weak early game/laning phase and have windows for enemies to defend themself or to surivive. PROS:bursty,mobile/sneaky(stealth).

PS:I know I will get downvoted for this,but assassins are un-fun to play against,while being the most broken class by far.

3TWarrior1 votes

pantheon is a decent example. He ults in, focuses one target, does a decent amount of damage to everyone else but is easy to burst down to nothing, unlike unhealthy assassins, and if he's built tanky, he' s a fighter instead

I think rengar is fine. until he gets really fed, he's easy to focus down and even when fed, easy to predict

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

but then do you want all assassins to have the insane lane-bully potential that Pantheon has starting level 1?

Vegas Dad3 votes

{quoted}

The biggest problem is the missperception that assassins should be able to delete high priority targets in 1 sec.Assassins should be sneaky,mobile and high single target damage characters,which catch enemies off guard(while waiting for the perfect moment to strike).Nearly all assassins players aren't patient about that,they only want to kill every target without waiting or checking the map to see where the other enemies are.They are just yolo players,that proclaim every assassin OP which can't instakill a squshy when jumping 1vs5.

I don't know if anybody noticed,but Rengo became a one-shoter again.His ability to jump on somebody and delete them in 1 sec isn't really healthy or fun for the other player.

They weaknesess should be like(some of them atleast): only singel target damage,low amounts of CC,bad wave clear compared to other champions,weak early game/laning phase and have windows for enemies to defend themself or too surivive. PROS:bursty,mobile/sneaky(stealth).

PS:I know I will get downvoted for this,but assassins are un-fun to play against,while being the most broken class by far.

This guy pretty much nailed it. the problem is with the core concept of "assassin" that currently is a champion who gets to easily and safely insta kill people.... ya nothing healthy about that and no one signs on to play the "victim" champion for the guy on the assassin to run around hunting and insta gibbing. Alot of people will gravitate to riots "assassin" because hey who doesnt like to easily and safely get free kills all game. Make assassins sneaky mobile, who can get some kills if they leverage those skills and catch you sitting out low hp trying to pick up extra farm, but not safely roam the map crushing anyone with brute force and then also doing it with no risk and having a few safety triggers as well when they mis play or get outplayed.

I mean lets be real leblanc is a fuking joke as far as balance goes, there is literally no risk to playing lb all reward, play poor, make poor decisions etc because well you got all the trump cards, huge dmg, huge mobility, huge burst, and when all of that isnt enough you got the silly clone and invis to cover your poorly played ass as well.

Dar Raksada2 votes

A bit like nocturne then? (When not built metagolem). I've always like playing Nocturne as an assassin, his lore and aesthetics just scream 'assassin' to me, his ult is perfect for assassinating single targets ('all alone') and he doesn't instaburst anyone, altough he is a great 1v1 fighter.

Vegas Dad2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARGpq3Hr,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2015-06-09T13:37:49.391+0000)

A bit like nocturne then? (When not built metagolem). I've always like playing Nocturne as an assassin, his lore and aesthetics just scream 'assassin' to me, his ult is perfect for assassinating single targets ('all alone') and he doesn't instaburst anyone, altough he is a great 1v1 fighter.

Actually yes you are right noc is another strong proto type for what an assassin should be like.

Narasimha2 votes

Well, there you see the problem already. Nocturne is pretty viable, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. But very few people like playing him because his weaknesses seem more prevalent than his strengths. Hell, people build him bruiser rather than assassin BECAUSE when he goes in, he's stuck there.

Dies to Wolves2 votes

{quoted}

its their job to delete a priority target in an instant

assassin's aren't so much supposed to delete a priority target in an instant as they're supposed to just be ABLE to kill the priority target, the end. This involves getting to them, avoiding their team, etc. To try and exemplify what I mean: a full build ADC, by virtue of his ridiculously high DPS, will burst people almost as fast as assassins. Put a full build Draven free hitting a zed, he WILL burst zed. Why is Draven not considered an assassin, then? Because he won't realistically move past her enemy team to get to the priority target (enemy ADC for example) and kill them (and "hopefully" getting out alive too). Why is Zed the assassin? Because he has more tools to try and do that. He also has the tools to try and kill Draven without diying (get in quickly to avoid being killed from far away, apply burst, move out before he can kill him back). It's also why you have the likes of Talon and Rengar, who will lol-burst you in half a second, and the likes of Zed, who unless extremely fed, tend to require a little more time to do so - all of whom are still assassins, regardless of who bursts faster - and even a tryndamere, who can crit you to death faster than you can say his name, but still isn't an assassin because his kit doesn't work as well for that.

ParaBellam15 votes

Malzahar is good assassin design.

Easily choreographed ability that is the setup to the combo. % damage, so he is not worthless against tanks. Can 100-0 pretty much any champ ALONE, dies in group fights unless he is peeled for.

The last point is the most important imo. Assassins aren't even assassins anymore, they're "let's go in and kill their entire team in a teamfight" champs. Looking at Katarina specifically here. They should either be fighters, or they should be champs that kill one target, get out, and kill another later.

If Ekko's W was more choreographed (took less to travel, but the circle on the ground would show up the ENTIRE time), he would be far, far more balanced. As of now, it's more like "Shoot the W, and hope by some divine will the enemy wanders into it"

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

{quoted}

Malzahar is good assassin design.

Easily choreographed ability that is the setup to the combo. % damage, so he is not worthless against tanks. Can 100-0 pretty much any champ ALONE, dies in group fights unless he is peeled for.

The last point is the most important imo. Assassins aren't even assassins anymore, they're "let's go in and kill their entire team in a teamfight" champs. Looking at Katarina specifically here. They should either be fighters, or they should be champs that kill one target, get out, and kill another later.

If Ekko's W was more choreographed (took less to travel, but the circle on the ground would show up the ENTIRE time), he would be far, far more balanced. As of now, it's more like "Shoot the W, and hope by some divine will the enemy wanders into it"

That's a bad example. People complain that assassins can kill tanks malz melting tanks wouldnt be a positive if he was somehow made into an assassin. Malz can be countered by an item and he has no way to outplay it in a 1v1 If malz full combos you you are probably dead and you cant even react to most of it unless you have a QSS or something similar.

If ekko's W showed you the entire time it would have to have a 1.5 second delay not 3. People call veigar unplayable with a .75 second delay. What do you think 3 seconds would do?.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Uh, Malz is effectively an assassin. He has some AoE burst mage properties, but he by far excels as an assassin over that.

SociopathFriend5 votes

Malzahar is not an Assassin; he can't kill whoever he wants in a teamfight, only the people he can get close to.

Can he 100-0? Sure, but that's a part of being a Mage.

He also has zero mobility, he actually has anti-mobility in that he literally has to stop himself to ult.

IcyPepper13 votes

I'll give them credit for trying to give Ekko counterplay (lots of warnings and the such), but they made a lot of mistakes as well. I could list them, but I think we're all aware.

I agree OP, while assassins have their weaknesses... they're just not good weaknesses. Riot has a difficult time making an assassin we don't, and apparently the closest one I've heard of is Talon (maybe because he actually uses mana and is gated?).

Narasimha11 votes

And its not like assassins are impossible to create with a healthy yet effective kit. plenty of moba's have suceeded with that.

Your case would be better served with example. Because as I've played plenty of mobas, and finding a well balanced assassin is a diamond in the rough. The vast majority of the time, they're relatively undertuned and kept that way. An assassin by its very nature is ridiculous to balance. You're trying to make a character who has to have the damage and capability to destroy a squishy target immediately, but who also shouldn't be able to do things like teamfight or splitpush well.

Terchio2 votes

Not that you're wrong, but where is Ekko on that scale? That amount of utility alone should not be on one champion, even as conditional as it is... He could tank up and still have a terrifying impact with a 2.25 second AoE stun during teamfights (at least Veigar's generally lets you evade within the circle until you flash out), and he doesn't even need much mana yet.

They need to stop making "jack of all trades" champions like this, because they end up having to gut them in the end. Another example of that is Elise, who we all don't know what happened to her. She's just... gone. Gutted out of existence, though before she was very capable in quite a few positions. Few kits can do that in a healthy way (maybe Zyra? Annie? Another example would be Lee Sin, but we all know he's had his gluttonous times...)

Assassins should generally never have a 2.25 second stun, nor a 130% AP ratio on an AoE blast with that crazy size. I don't care if they only work in fountain, that's not an assassin. Another similar example would be old AP Sion. Riot found that impossible to balance, though he only had 2 AP ratios (totalling 180% AP on damage, 90% on shield), and the damage was very conditional, next to impossible to land in teamfights. However, it was toxic because he had a powerful (albeit impossible to miss) 1.5 second stun to lower the solo counterplay to zero, though he had zero mobility. Another reliable stun that wrecked the game was Annie's Passive, and it shifted her to a primarily support champion. 2.25 seconds is huge, and the only reason Veigar gets away with 2.5 is because it's endgame only (unless he forgoes some of his damage), he's got no mobility, but he also needs the strong CC to do his work as an assassin. Ekko simply doesn't need that much utility, just as Janna didn't need a full-second knockup from Howling Gale, nor a 10 second shield, nor a slow on her Typhoon, and now she's non-viable as a carry (R.I.P. ADC Janna...).

Back to the actual point. Other MOBA games might have characters that fade into the shadows more often when it comes to assassin play, but they generally have the risk-reward ratio more suitable for such a gamble character. In League, it has gotten to the point that some assassins have found a home as a non-income Support champion, and Ekko has seen quite a bit of that. I faced a team of Mid Leblanc, Top Zed, and Support Ekko the other day, and it was just as impossible to face as it sounds. Assassins should be an actual role to fulfill a team, not the baseline for what a competent team looks like.

KazaLyn Shao9 votes

I hate the 100-0 mentality of the LoL assassins. I hate the mobility philosophy of LoL assassins. "Jump in, KABOOM! Jump out." If anything, assassins only need a way INTO a fight. They need to get to their target. There is absolutely no reason they should be given any way out. Escaping should not be a guarantee for an assassin. Hell, if the fight is lost, it shouldn't even be an option. Assassins are supposed to be all or nothing. Right now they're all in and easy escape, rinse and repeat. Assassins DO NOT NEED AN ESCAPE. They only need to get to their target and then have the possibility of a kill. Removing their escape mechanics forces them to play smart and to make more hard decisions, not the easy ones where their escape and survival is assured.

AsheGetsGanked2 votes

werid idea, but maybe LB should get it where she can only go back on her w if she gets the kill. therefore, you cannot just blindly go in, and if you fucked up just hit w to escape.

SociopathFriend2 votes

Now there's an interesting idea- might be a bit too harsh in that her trading would be almost non-existent though.

revliledpembroke2 votes

It's not like she has two other ranged abilities or anything like that to trade with.

aperson19 votes

Fundamentally the idea of the "assassin" role in this game, as envisioned by Riot, is simply not healthy. The idea of a guy who gets in, kills someone before they can react, and gets out is a cool one but doesn't make for very interesting gameplay. Whenever Riot tries to make someone with a longer kill pattern who can compete with the current assassins who fit this description, they end up having to load their kits with tons of extra stuff (see: Ekko). Otherwise why play the guy who kills squishies in 3 seconds when you could get the guy who kills them in 1 second instead?

What's worse is that this type of "kit arms race" mentality starts to pollute the design of champs in other roles as well. ADCs have the problem of getting jumped on by assassins, so let's give Kalista infinite kiting and a 1-2 second knockup to deal with it. Immobile ones get zoned out of fights, so let's give Jinx long range autos and poke, and a long-lasting 1.5s root wall. Supports can't shield their carries' enough to survive targeted telegraphed burst, so let's give Bard a Zhonya's for his team to wail on the assassin.

As far as "highest counterplay assassin" goes, I'd have to say Kha'Zix. Proper positioning will nearly cut his burst in half; he has to get a good flank if he doesn't want to do a slow dash over the tank line to reach his target; he can contribute to a fight from range without having to assassinate a squishy, but not as effectively as someone who's dedicated to doing so; and if he messes up his invisibility allows him to go back in and out in a way that can be predicted or countered by the enemy team (as opposed to "press R to blink to safety"). The only thing I dislike about him are his evolved leap resets, which are pretty much a mandatory first or second evolution. But if Kha is able to use resets to clean up your team and get a penta, chances are good that the fight was lost anyways.

Hinagiku338 votes

It's actually super easy to make a healthy Assassin...

...just gut Lifesteal

AD Carries are the high-priority target that Assassins focus on killing whenever they aren't waiting to respawn, unless the Mage got stupidly fed or the Support is just being an easy mark. If you kill the AD Carry then you can pretty much guarantee the enemy team won't be able to take an objective if they even win the fight at all. This is logical and makes sense given that the role of the AD Carry is to put out massive physical damage if left alive.

What doesn't make sense is giving such a powerful class massive sustain that can bring them back to full health with a couple auto-attacks.

A healthy assassin should be able to combo a target to death over a reasonable time frame, opening up windows for them to be CC'd and ganged up on by teammates. Ideally, good assassins should be able to stalk and poke a target down and only be able to full-engage a target that is already weakened. This in turn would be countered by having a good sustain support to help mitigate the poke and delay the assassin from being able to move in. Obviously tanks and champs with good disengage would also be great babysitters for carries. Lone targets and people at low health are vulnerable but anyone at full health and/or with their team would be relatively safe without a ballsy, high-risk play from an assassin (or the assassin's team getting off an awesome engage).

But this doesn't happen.

Assassins can't take even 3 seconds to combo a target or they will die and be useless as an assassin. AD Carries can easily heal the damage they are taking if they have the chance to fight back. This is why Assassins (and Burst Mages too really) need to get their full combo out so fast. Either they get a full combo and it deletes a carries right off the map...or the carries survives and auto-attacks the assassin to death while healing back all the damage they took.

If AD Carry sustain was less powerful (and not also tied to the best AD items) then sustain Supports and Assassins could be made healthier by balancing them around longer fights rather than everything being over in 5 seconds.

Matt The Hero8 votes

Absolutely no one will be able to solve this because no one knows what the hell an assassin is, which ones are healthy, and what makes them problematic.

Some people think an assassin is supposed to be 100-0 in and out.

Some people think an assassin is supposed to be all-or-nothing, no escapes.

Some people think Pantheon, Kennen, and Malzahar are assassins.

Riot thinks Zed is healthy, people who get dumpstered in Solo Queue disagree.

Some people argue that LeBlanc is anything BUT the most unhealthy champ in the game right now.

Who's to say what assassin's healthy when we don't even know what the hell an assassin is, or what a healthy one looks like?

LegitBacon667 votes

I mean in real life assassins don't have the idea in their head that they are extremely safe and can kill without any problems, but Riot's take on the assassins is kind of like.... You can go in and get the kill, but if you fuck up, just go back to safety... Kat kind of shows this by getting her escape on a kill, but still I think all assassin's should do this is some way. Its kinds of like you should make good decisions and strategic positioning rather than click click flash across the map and save yourself...

Singing Lark7 votes

To be fair, I still find Zed to be relatively healthy. While his waveclear is indeed stupid, if I get outplayed by a Zed, I feel like I got outplayed. Not stomped because "LOL IMA ASSASSIN!". Probably just me.

And least you can cancel his ult with QSS right?

windwolf7772 votes

[{quoted}](name=Livia the Rose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARGpq3Hr,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-06-08T23:27:39.473+0000)

And least you can cancel his ult with QSS right?

Yeah but people always bring up 2 points to that

  1. blah blah blah buying mr item to counter ad champ
  2. wasting item slot

Or something along those lines

Singing Lark5 votes

It's true. QSS is a pretty bad item asides from it's active.

Laughing Cupcake6 votes

I think one way to improve assassin design would be to make their ability to assassinate carries based more on the situation. Although he's not quite balanced right (not quite) one good thing that comes out of Kha'zix's kit is his massively improved isolation damage. His ability to nuke a target is enhanced when the target is alone, which can lead to a play pattern of lurking on the edge of a fight, waiting for an opening on a juicy target. It requires finesse and a bit of planning. This is how an assassin should feel, in my opinion. Finding other ways to make the ability to assassinate conditional might be interesting. Shaco is another example because he does more damage to targets facing away.

I agree with the OP that assassins who are too safe in that they can just walk up to a team fight, pick a target, QWER, and get out again with ease are not really all that fun.

grLKQ9ma0o2 votes

Except he has literally no counterplay to himself. He does no damage if he doesn't have isolation, and all the enemy has to do is build one armor item or just stay within a mile of their team and they're fine.

Byakuya Kuchiki5 votes

Shaco Rengar both haelthy assassins

Svddenly1 votes

Shaco is a bitch to deal with if he counter jungles or gets ahead at all. As for Rengar, here look at this (not mine): but muh counterplay

Lugg2 votes

Yeah, Rengar definitely needs a nerf. I see this EVERY game he is in.

Archeanthus4 votes

I like this post, +1ed it. Seems well thought through, and I like the example of Annie with flash every ten seconds. That would be an absolute nightmare, but we have assassins who have more burst and CC than Annie with all the mobility in the world too. I have a slightly different suggestion for a reimagination of assassins though: I'm okay with being bursted 100-0 by a high-damaging, mobile assassin, if that same champion is unable to turn around and do that to the rest of my team one by one too. If they 100-0 me and then have to run away because their one or two damaging abilities are on a very long cooldown, then I feel that would be better. They would have performed their task of "assassinating" their high priority target, but then their damage abilities are on a high cooldown, so they have to get the heck out of dodge before they get destroyed by the rest of the team because they have no more damaging spells. And maybe having a champ with a high mobility spell that has a couple of stacks, for getting you in and out of a fight, but then has a long cooldown so that you can't use it every few seconds to dart in and out of a fight picking off whomever you feel like.

Tl;dr: my image of an assassin is a high-damage, high mobility (OR high stealth, there's an idea) champion with high cooldowns, whose job is to eliminate a high priority target and then get out quickly before being eliminated themselves because their spells are on cooldown. summoner 3

ChaosThief3 votes

It doesn't mean they should give up. It means they should stop giving them massive damage, loads of control and make such a powerful ult free.

SOME mobility. Not a ton. LITTLE TO NO control. NOT EVERYTHING THEY GAVE HIM.

rtbf522885993 votes

So you basically want assassins not being able to assassin squishes anymore but to "slowly exhaust" the enemy team...

You know how this is called? Poking.

  1. You know who excels at poking? Mages or as casters.

The whole point of an assassin is to take someone out of the game in one burst if out of position. There are lots of champs that are doing fine laning against assassins if you are playing smart and not expecting to win a burst duel unless you play maybe Annie.

I can't outsmart champ x - rito pls nerf...

Junsui Aoi2 votes

Talon is that high risk high reward assassin though. Legit, he's the only one who has high risk.

Orangesilk1 votes

Diana

Talon has a way out with his invisibility, and he just points and clicks to erase someone.

Diana jumps in, kills someone and ZHONYAS HOPING HER TEAM WILL SAVE HER, that's her escape. Besides, she runs the highest risk of ALL assassins, that the gold she has accumulated, her whole fighting potential, will be negated by not hitting the right Q at the right time.

Junsui Aoi3 votes

true, but she's also naturally tankier.

Talon should be using his ulti to assassinate, so if he's running using it, its cause he botched up. And then pinks/reds are all you need.

Both are more on the balanced side of things.

KazaLyn Shao3 votes

Talon can only use invisibility to get away if he doesn't use it for damage. His ult is a one way street. Either you can use it to get in or get out, not both. If he fails to kill his target with his R down, or even if he does and the fight is still lost, it's curtains. Leblanc and Zed can get out whether they win the fight or not. They have mobility that goes both directions. Talon doesn't.

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