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Zilean New Passive Idea

Stacona··4 votes·452 views

So my original idea was going to replace his passive entirely, but instead grant more of a hybrid of a double passive so that he has a passive for his level 18 but not take away the unique EXP aura that he has so what is going to happen is as Zilean gains levels one passive decreases in power as the other passive increases in power. And something I am going to focus highly on is the mage-support that Zilean is.

Heightened Learning (Passive): Range: 1500 units Zilean and nearby ally champions gain 9.5%(-0.5% per champion level)[9% level 1, 0% level 18] bonus increase experience points.

Zilean and nearby ally champions deal 10(+5levels 1-6; +10levels 7-11; +15levels 12-15; +20level 16; +30level 17; +60level 18)(+70%AP) bonus magic damage on their basic attacks to slowed or stunned enemies, half damage if the target is not currently affected by one of Zilean's bombs. The same unit can only take this magic damage once every 10 seconds, but can be reduced whenever Zilean uses Rewind as long as the target is within range of Zilean.

EDIT: Okay, okay, made another mechanic to this where if the slowed or stunned target being attacked is NOT currently affected with one of Zilean's bombs [Time Warp slow or Time Bomb countdown] then the target takes half of the damage with the same unit static cooldown being the same. 70% Ability Power instead of 50% Ability Power.

Another change where the cooldown on targets is now 10 from 4 seconds but gets reduced if the affected targets are within the aura range when Zilean uses Rewind for even more cohesion with his kit.

Damage lowered and changed the scaling values so a lot weaker early scaling and dramatic increases in damage in the last few levels especially to 18 from 17 totaling 260(+70%AP) from 360(+70%AP).

19 Comments

qetzel4 votes

Perhaps enemies slowed or stunned by Zilean?

He needs extra power, certainly, but 360 damage on an auto attack on any slowed target is a lot considering the number of AOE slows in the game.

I would also be concerned about giving him too much extra power away from his bombs - it lowers the chance that Riot might increase their reliability a little.

Stacona1 votes

Take numbers with a grain of salt, as long as the passive is less than the bombs it is fine

but the effect is not suppose to be hard to get off, and adding team synergy is good for a support -

the numbers are for an example to show how the damage would scale and not to be final values - so there is non-linear scaling with the value very weak early and very strong late

do not forget Bard can get over 500 damage with infinite scaling in the late game with like 5 meeps [autos] in a row as an AoE and slow

ExecutorDill2 votes

I like it

Zarxis1 votes

I like the idea, but what would you name the second passive? It needs to fit thematically. "Temporal Disruption," maybe?

Stacona1 votes

Its one passive, it is a double passive similar to Azir, Zac, Bard, Aatrox, etc. where there are two passives in one

Heightened Learning still makes sense which is his current passive name, so he learns fast [exp growth] and uses his knowledge for power later on which is the on-hit magic damage to slowed and stunned units [which occurs from any slows or stuns and not just zilean's] as long as you are within Zilean's aura range so this has both a mage aspect to it while still having a support side as well [so a zilean comp will be one stacking champions with a bunch of slows and stuns similar to yasuo and knock-ups]--- there is a same unit static cooldown so that someone does not take absurd damage from the magic damage portion

i was going to call it 'End of Time' because of the magic damage procing off of slows and stuns, but because i did a hybrid passive here Heightened Learning makes more sense to the way i set it up

Zarxis1 votes

{quoted}

Its one passive, it is a double passive similar to Azir, Zac, Bard, Aatrox, etc. where there are two passives in one

Heightened Learning still makes sense which is his current passive name, so he learns fast [exp growth] and uses his knowledge for power later on which is the on-hit magic damage to slowed and stunned units [which occurs from any slows or stuns and not just zilean's] as long as you are within Zilean's aura range so this has both a mage aspect to it while still having a support side as well [so a zilean comp will be one stacking champions with a bunch of slows and stuns similar to yasuo and knock-ups]--- there is a same unit static cooldown so that someone does not take absurd damage from the magic damage portion

i was going to call it 'End of Time' because of the magic damage procing off of slows and stuns, but because i did a hybrid passive here Heightened Learning makes more sense to the way i set it up

Personally, I don't think Heightened Learning is the best name for the on-hit portion of your proposed double passive, but Riot would be the ones naming it if it was implemented, anyway.

I do think that making the passive work only with Zilean's natural CC (one stun and one slow) would be necessary to gate this new passive's power and to prevent Zilean from encouraging specific teamcomps (he's already squishy, meaning his team already has to make up for the lack of tankiness he'll represent in bottom or mid lane). He already has a long-range, long-duration stun and a slow; Zilean could easily proc that passive on his own because he has downtime between abilities (due to the nature of his W— zero interaction, no real value to his kit beyond gating his E and Q cooldowns).

What if we added your new passive to Zilean's W? That way, it might possible to change what order Zilean maxes his non-ultimate abilities in (Q->E->W being by far the most popular sequence right now, because only his Q does damage right now). His W would serve a purpose beyond "push this to double bomb/slow."

Stacona1 votes

a same target static cooldown is enough gating - if it was only Zilean slowing bomb and stunning bomb then the cooldown would be removed making it absurd damage --- anyways it is easier to balance if it is from all stuns and slows and can adjust damage and cooldown respectively and appropriately

i see enough distinct variety spell level ups just never W first it will be third or second, E Q can be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd

besides making on his W does not fix his current passive problems and forcing it as his passive means that is full control for balancing so the effect's damage is late game and not early game

ZileanUltJesusOP1 votes

I like it a lot except that the base damage is pretty high. I think if you lowered the base damage and increased the AP scaling ratio, you should be solid. Maybe .7? It should be a risk reward passive. So Zilean can build more AP for better damage however he is really squishy. He shouldn't be able to build tank and do bonus 360 damage to every person slowed or stunned. That's 1800 damage in a team fight from an ult like malphites, wukong, or ori. Or he just builds item 3116 uses a bomb and then your team gets 720 to 1800 free damage. That should only happen if he decides he wants to build a lot of AP, then he will provide the damage, but at the expense of him being so squishy.

Stacona1 votes

He has a super powerful slow already and a potential stun on the bombs, i set it up for his own kit can ready the effect so rylais is useless on Zilean

you do forget Zilean is half a support though- and the damage is 360 base at level 18 where people will have items and levels so it is not as high as you may think - i care more for the support side of it rather than risk side since allies can proc the damage as well as long as zilean is by them

Zilean will either go full ap mage or a support build; i want the damage to be somewhat threatening late game, but still not out shining his bombs- as long as early to mid game is low damage and late game is high damage the damage is balanced

The only way to tell if the damage is too dominating or balanced is through play testing; on paper zilean is still on the lower side of total damage which at level 18 would be 960(+230%AP) magic damage for a full spell rotation--- Lulu may be low burst but a lot higher damage because a lot of it is spamming Qs and her passive--- Orianna has a decent burst, still weaker but again she spams spells and her passive to work with--- Anivia has a similar burst with a lot higher damage thanks to sustain damage from her ultimate--- so his potential high damage is roughly equal to similar mages of the same class as he is, but again to see true balancing would be play testing and numbers taken with a grain of salt the point is that there is a base damage that scales better and better the higher his levels are [non-linear scaling] with an AP ratio

khorney1 votes

well i really despise how his q is now its stupid and needs to be how it used to be. and his w not affecting his ult is pretty dumb as well

Stacona1 votes

They did that for balancing purpose; they can control balance the ult better and giving a spell a bunch of power like his timebombs need better counterplay rather than massive guaranteed damage

reasons to why we can give more power to Zilean and just give power overall is because he has went through a balancing change with his ultimate E and Q

Lil Soybean1 votes

I want Zilean to be buffed in a way that makes his current playstyle more rewarding. I.E. returning the perma-speed up you used to be able to give yourself with max rank E, W, and 40% cdr. I don't like buffs that orient around someone nearby doing a bit more damage. Then you sort of end up like the Ardent Censer of supports, whereas others provide peel and protection like Face of the Mountain or Frost Queen's Claim. It's better and funner to have whatever buffs he receives actually benefit his solo play as well, in terms of his goals: Getting to allies quickly, helping allies engage or disengage quickly, and saving people with quick double-bomb stuns.

My suggestion is lowering the E cooldown at max rank slightly (or the W cooldown) in whatever way necessary to make his old perma-speed possible again - and then, to return his E range to its previous, pre-nerf range, so that the ability is more reliable and so that it makes his bombs more reliable. (So that comboing is actually encouraged as him, rather than them simply buffing the bombs' reliability on their own.)

Stacona1 votes

Zilean AND his nearby teammates, i made it so Zilean can use his own passive, i am obviously going to keep in mind solo lane Zilean he is a Time Mage after all

And Riot wanted to fix the perma aspects, the point and click high damage nukes, fix balancing on his ultimate by unhooking it on Rewind, and remove the global op passive --- now that these elements are taken care of Zilean can receive some loving in a healthy way

But the point here is giving him a better passive that feels better for Zilean, not buffing elements in his kit that do not need buffs

Lil Soybean1 votes

{quoted}

Zilean AND his nearby teammates, i made it so Zilean can use his own passive, i am obviously going to keep in mind solo lane Zilean he is a Time Mage after all

And Riot wanted to fix the perma aspects, the point and click high damage nukes, fix balancing on his ultimate by unhooking it on Rewind, and remove the global op passive --- now that these elements are taken care of Zilean can receive some loving in a healthy way

But the point here is giving him a better passive that feels better for Zilean, not buffing elements in his kit that do not need buffs

I think those areas do need buffs.

Stacona1 votes

Well, if we give Zilean a better passive then he probably does not need help any where else in his kit , but again play testing would decide that

Lil Soybean1 votes

{quoted}

Well, if we give Zilean a better passive then he probably does not need help any where else in his kit , but again play testing would decide that

Perhaps, but play testing also seems to have indicated that current Zilean was too strong, since they released him even weaker than he is now, and then had to buff him several times. Do you think current Zilean is too strong? Maybe the play testing hasn't been very accurate for him. Maybe they way underestimated the devastation to his kit that that came from making his only meaningful source of damage (his bombs) go from guaranteed to affect the enemy to, instead, a small chance of affecting the enemy.

Stacona1 votes

PBE is a very rough idea because better skilled players are usually actually on LIVE and as well as not very many are on PBE - so PBE is to see if their are any obvious bugs in the mix and see if something feels bad to play with, see if something is too weak or too strong

so by play testing I am thinking more so on LIVE servers unless there seems to be obvious things need fixing revealed on smaller play tests like PBE - on PBE testing Zilean felt great at the time to play and didn't feel weak, once he hit LIVE against better players you discover that he ended up being too weak, so there are multiple phases of play testing and balancing required -- on paper, small testing, slightly larger testing [PBE], and the real thing testing [LIVE]

Point being we give small buffs at a time, and we givie him a better passive that feels better for Zilean and that may do the trick, and if he needs more work then he needs more - but small phases of buffs is better than a lot of buffs then discover you over buffed him and he needs to get gutted to compensate while small buffs at a time allows him to reach into the spot he is suppose to be in a balanced location for a healthy Time Mage in the game

Lil Soybean1 votes

{quoted}

PBE is a very rough idea because better skilled players are usually actually on LIVE and as well as not very many are on PBE - so PBE is to see if their are any obvious bugs in the mix and see if something feels bad to play with, see if something is too weak or too strong

so by play testing I am thinking more so on LIVE servers unless there seems to be obvious things need fixing revealed on smaller play tests like PBE - on PBE testing Zilean felt great at the time to play and didn't feel weak, once he hit LIVE against better players you discover that he ended up being too weak, so there are multiple phases of play testing and balancing required -- on paper, small testing, slightly larger testing [PBE], and the real thing testing [LIVE]

Point being we give small buffs at a time, and we givie him a better passive that feels better for Zilean and that may do the trick, and if he needs more work then he needs more - but small phases of buffs is better than a lot of buffs then discover you over buffed him and he needs to get gutted to compensate while small buffs at a time allows him to reach into the spot he is suppose to be in a balanced location for a healthy Time Mage in the game

My issues with your suggestion are as follows;

  1. The suggested passive change has two parts; the ability to self-proc the extra damage, and allies' ability to proc it. That is part of a power budget. Get it? His passive has to stay weaker, or the rest of his kit, has to stay weaker, if part of his power budget goes towards making a nearby ally be able to get bonus damage. In my personal opinion, I'd rather have whatever goes into his power budget be funneled into strengths he can utilize entirely on his own. Yes, he can use your proposed passive, but again - it has to be kept weaker if allies can proc it as well. If it was only for himself to use, it could be stronger/more impactful, because it would be a bit less reliable.

  2. His bombs. His bombs are extremely, extremely unreliable. I don't want them to say, "well, he's too weak because his bombs rarely land. Do we make them more reliable to land, or do we just give him bonus damage on his passive?" What you're suggesting might make Zilean more "balanced", but not, it seems, in the way he needs to be. It allows you and allies to do extra damage but it still keeps his main tool extremely unreliable. For example - imagine if Karthus' Q had a 1 second delay now, instead of 0.5. It would be essentially useless. Would you suggest they return it to a 0.5s delay, or to leave it at 1s and just make his R way more powerful? Well, yes, he might still be 'strong' if they buffed his R to make it do ridiculous amounts of damage, but his main dueling/fighting/farming tool, which his kit revolves around, would have been made nearly obsolete.

That's similar to your passive suggestion. It compensates Zilean by giving him some power, yes, while leaving his most important tool extremely unreliable. And if we have to choose between having bonus passive damage, or having bombs that actually hurt enemy champions, I prefer increased bomb reliability.

(And we kind of do have to choose, because these changes don't come very often, and they take up part of his power budget.)

So, the thing is, I'd be happy if your changes made him 'viable'. But it would still feel pretty bad that an enemy can essentially guarantee a bomb never hits them if they pay attention at all and just walk away from it. It would still feel clunky and unreliable, even if his winrate went up.

Stacona1 votes

I wanted to keep a support mentality to Zilean because he is a utility mage; there is a same unit cooldown and Zilean is ranged so it is not like he is difficult to proc the passive himself, but i wanted a passive good for support and solo lane Zilean

I did make it so that Zilean's bombs on the target allows for full damage, and without the bombs the damage is halved

Time Warp and Time Bomb and both bombs, Time Warp is a point and click slow so this aspect is very reliable

Zilean's bombs you just need to get used to landing; because the old Q sure was super reliable, it was also one of the most unhealthy spells in the game; the thing I would like to see is have Time Bomb's stun more rewarding, aka a higher stun duration like 1.25 to 2.25 based on rank from 1.1 to 1.5 seconds since the stun has such a low chance of succeeding I think a more rewarding stun when you do land it can be justified --- but regardless I would like to see a better feeling passive when I play Zilean and this should be highest priority before doing anything else with him

There could always be different iterations to try and spit ball for passive ideas; magic damage just seems like the best one at the moment and hard to come up with good passive for zilean

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