Riot, if you're going to make Ryze a machine gun mage balanced around skillshots...

Mister Support··95 votes·3,531 views

Then stop giving him a point and click root with really high range that negates him having skillshots

That is the biggest outlier in his kit that constantly breaks him. Having a ranged mage with skillshots do high damage is fine...but adding on reliable ranged CC that can't be missed is not fine.

71 Comments

Autrah Fang13 votes

yea... this is exactly why a lot of burst champions don't have point and click CC... imagine if Lux Q, Leblanc E, and Anivia Q as just a few examples were targeted... especially if they kept their current burst shudder

Arakadia3 votes

All those mages aren't machine gun mages. Ryze is supposed to be a machine gun mage.

Spice POWAH1 votes

Cassiopeia has no point and click CC and has to rely on her mobility Azir stretching the definition of machine gun mage, but he deals consistent damagewith little cc wow there are less machine gun mages than I thought

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spice POWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uU3HchdN,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-02-06T06:52:05.638+0000)

Cassiopeia has no point and click CC and has to rely on her mobility Azir stretching the definition of machine gun mage, but he deals consistent damagewith little cc wow there are less machine gun mages than I thought

Karthus fires off once per second

Who is Taliyah1 votes

Taliyah is the only real machine gun mage. THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK THROW ANOTHER ROCK

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Lux has range, Leblanc has mobility, and Anivia has Zone Control. Take away his snare, and all he has is damage, and when all Ryze has is damage, then we have the past-rework Ryze problem again.

Boop Daddy 7 votes

No one's saying, "remove his root." What you're hearing is, "remove the point and click cc."

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

And then we still have to adjust other things around it. Do we want Ryze to have more damage, or perhaps the ability to snag you from even further outside your range? Longer duration maybe? The entire reason it's only a 1 second root without combo'ing with E is because it's an extremely short range, for a mage.

And it's not like him having a 2 second snare makes it unable for you to respond. To be able to hit you with Q, Ryze needs to be in the open. That means, he's just as vulnerable for retaliation, for you to fight him or throw out your combo maker. Honestly, people make it sound like Snares are just a renamed Stun.

Hay5eed1 votes

Because in most situations they basically are. All of Ryze's damage comes from combos and so you obviously want to avoid any abilities he throws at you especially in laning phase. To do this you constantly stay behind minions and are weaving back and forth to avoid skill shots. But then he throws the snare on you, E, and then Q's, popping a lot of damage from a good range if you are anything but a mage. On top of this when the snare ends you can't retaliate cause he gets a shield AND movespeed.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

If he's using Q-W-E, he's not getting maxium damage potential, and is standing out in the open while he does all that. He's sacrificing damage for safety, something plenty of other champs are capable of as well. He's still putting himself out into the open. You can still fight back while he's doing his thing, or trying to get into position to land the Q.

RavenMagus1 votes

Ryze has mobility and tankiness.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Mobility doesn't include Speed boosts, otherwise half the game is "Mobile".

RavenMagus1 votes

When one guy runs around at the speed of light all the time and you don't, I'm going to call him mobile, because he's moving places.

Unlike champs like Volibear or Udyr, Ryze doesn't have to spend his speed boost running straight at you, so he gets the full benefit of being Sonic.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

All the time? He has to use his E-W-Q if he wants it the first time, otherwise he has to sit back for 4 seconds not doing any damage to use it a second time afterwards.

And when the legit definition used by the community, especially when talk of Mobility Creep pops up, is the understanding that Mobility means instantaneous dashes. Next thing you're going to tell me is that Soraka is mobile when others are low health, or that Cass is mobile. They can't go over walls, they still require running the distance between Point A and B, and they're reliant on an after effect of a spell, not it's own mobility.

RavenMagus1 votes

High movespeed still lets you dodge skillshots, still lets you chase champions easier, still lets you escape easier. What the heck else do you want from mobility anyways? If extreme movespeed does exactly everything mobility does, then why would you NOT call it mobility?

Yes, I would consider Soraka's passive mobility, as it's quite a strong burst of movespeed, but she's not really 'a mobile champion' - it's quite limited in scope. No, I wouldn't consider Cassiopeia mobility as much, because it's not as extreme a boost as the other two. Yes, I would consider Zilean able to make anyone mobile for a short time. No, I do not think there is a black-and-white line between when movespeed becomes strong enough to call it true mobility; it's a rather grey area that's best taken case by case. I would not consider Teleport a mobility summoner, even though by the technical definition of "instant dash/blink" it is, but I would consider Ghost a mobility spell, and I think you'd be crazy not to.

Chaos Milk Tea8 votes

^^^THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSS^^^

Every time he gets reworked I say "But did they remove the snare? No? Well that defeats the whole point of rapid fire spells" and I then begin waiting for his next update.

Rabblerouser2 votes

I'd rather have that point and click around for LeBlancs, though. :P

Mister Support5 votes

I'm a support main...LeBlanc is so much easier to peel than Ryze since she also doesn't get bonus movement speed and a large shield just for facerolling on her keyboard.

Legacy Hydralpha6 votes

Fellow support main here, it's only easier for me to peel LeBlanc when I can predict her. She gets two dashes and two blinks, Ryze only gets bonus movement speed. Peel is mostly just using CC on the enemy, and I'd rather fight someone who doesn't jump around more than a kangaroo jacked up on steroids.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Hit someone with straight line dashes or someone with 800+ ms....

DrCyanide1 votes

That straight line dash has a speed of 1600, so if you can hit that you should be able to predict and hit Ryze too.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Yoiu can predict where they will be though, why would you ever try and hit them mid dash? Its like trying to hook a Lee sin mid q, just why

Handy Sandy 2 votes

his root doesnt have that high of a range though, it's shorter than his e i think idk

Mister Support28 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ryze

Both are 615 range, farther than most basic attacks

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

What if it was point and click with a small delay below 250 range and a skillshot above that

RavenMagus1 votes

That's how normal skillshots operate already.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Nice joke. Seriously, it would allow him to flash W a squishie behind a Warden, while preventing him from doing that from afar.

RavenMagus1 votes

I guess you're right.

Keep in mind that 250 range is not actually very far, though. You'd pretty much have to flash into melee range of the warden, and the squishie would have to be snuggled up right behind them.

At that point, I think it'd be best to just make it a skillshot and leave it at that.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

300 then?

Meep Man8 votes

Calculated center to center, not edge to edge. Their range is more like 575 than 615 if you are comparing to basic attacks. Just wanted to note that.

GarthBrooksXD2 votes

Yeah hes pretty retardedly broken, especially in pro play with his ult being used to pressure multiple objectives. Like hold on a second...he has tf ult for his entire team lol. He's pretty much tf on steroids that takes less skill and scales harder :)

Handy Sandy 6 votes

it takes a bunch of skill, thats why he has a trash in low elo but is useful in higher elo.

Spice POWAH3 votes

idk about trash, but in low elo your ult might as well be a worse TwistedFate ult

aspects12 votes

its hella low range for a mage

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Range is kinda the trade off for being a point and click ability.

aspects11 votes

if you get that close in a late game teamfight, your practically inting

PokladnicaZla1 votes

I don't see how this is relavent.

aspects11 votes

by getting that close, he cant afford to miss his only cc, so its balanced hes not that strong in lane either till he gets tear

PokladnicaZla1 votes

He can't miss it,since it's a point and click ability...

aspects11 votes

yes... thats my point.. it has to be point and click because its range is so low

PokladnicaZla1 votes

It's the other way around thought. If you make a point and click ability,it naturally has to have a small range.

aspects11 votes

but if it has a low range, it should not be a skill for a mage, since mages are supposed to be the highest range class

A Basic Island2 votes

what's the point of skill shots if you don't need to aim because you have a point and click cc?

Arya Riven2 votes

But I thought people preferred linear stat-check fights because outplays are evil?

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Only if the outplays come in a Windman package.

vodrio122 votes

butt he iz a late geim chanp

almost deletes me at level 4.....

I Am Ravi2 votes

Make the snare something like a lux q possibly?

VelvetCrotch1 votes

Yep, i think too it would fit better imo.

Arakadia1 votes

Its a 1 second root, that he can use with another spell (which due to cast times and finger movement being twice as long) creates a slight delay.

Yeah its not healthy, but its much better than alot of other forms of CC. And its not the only reason he's out of line.

Spice POWAH2 votes

yeah, the main reason he's out of line is because he deals too much damage with just q>e>q

if his e gives him double damage his q needs to do less damage, but if they want q to be impactful alone his e needs to amp less, he should at least have to do a full rotation to 1v1 someone who's squishy if not a full combo

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