We shouldn't just revert Rengar

Mister Support··71 votes·1,430 views

There are plenty of people who look at Rengar and the idea of reverting him and say "if it happened to Kog'Maw, why not Rengar?". Well, frankly a full revert won't happen to Rengar because the reason he was reworked in the first place was due to his unhealthy nature that made it difficult for him to be in a comfortably balanced spot. Rengar was quite literally the definition of a feast/famine champion (Currently, that title is held by Garen). On the other hand Kog'Maw was changed simply for the sake of change, to try and make the marksman class more unique and give reason to pick one over the other aside from "who's best".

The reason why it was still fine to revert Kog'Maws rework is because the rework had game health issues tied to itemization and on-hit effects which ended up outweighing the problem of individuality from his previous version. As for Rengar, the current version holds more potential game health compared to the past iteration yet has strayed far away from his assassin identity. Currently, Rengar lies close to the bruiser class and is even recognized by Riot as such. There's arguments for which class Rengar should be a part of, Assassin due to the idea of chasing down a target and finally mauling their face in, or Bruiser due to the idea of brawling it out with your opponent and experiencing the true Thrill of the Hunt. Personally, I like the idea of Bruiser far more and believe Riot should continue down this road especially since it will give further distinction between Kha'Zix, who hunts for power and would not be afraid of playing dirty, and Rengar, who hunts for sheer ecstasy of claiming his targets.

However, I firmly believe Rengar in his current iteration is still unhealthy for the game in the similar feast/famine style as the old Rengar.

Old Rengar's issue was having far too powerful of scaling yet also being reliant on that scaling to have any use and, therefore, would have the potential to enter a feast state should he accumulate an excess amount of gold or would starve himself from scaling too slowly. The powerful scaling on Rengar was due to him being able to unload all abilities onto a single target without much warning all while getting a double or triple basic attack reset the latter basic attacks getting bonus damage on top of it, and this unloading occurred in less than a second in some cases.

Current Rengar's issue is relying far too heavy on the stacking mechanism of his passive. When maxed out he achieves 20% Bonus Attack damage and gets nothing from no stacks. This bonus attack speed as well as the guaranteed crit on his ultimate is what allows Rengar to still nearly one shot most people while having a bruiser style build.

My proposition is, rather than a full revert, meet halfway with what parts have been seen as healthy and perhaps some other changes.

  1. Bring back the old Q, current one is clunky and seems to be overall disliked by most people.
  2. Keep most of the current passive (amount of Ferocity needed + bonus MS when ferocity empowerment used) but revert the trophy bonuses so they are utility based rather than stat-based. Keep the method of gathering trophies so Rengar can't simply hunt the same target over and over.
  3. Keep current empowered W cleanse and heal so Rengar has a way to get out of or maneuver through fights if played right.
  4. Keep current stealth version of Rengar's ultimate (possibly remove the guaranteed crit?).

Adjust numbers accordingly so that he'll be in a decent state.

EDIT: MortenMBK1709 pointed out the old stacking mechanic feeling much better on Rengar and I agree due to the ability to gank pre-6.

38 Comments

sardiniii4 votes

Yes

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

post-rework rengar is a mess

pre-work rengar was a bigger mess. after the one shot fiasco nerf. he basically either built full tank and did no damage. or he built full crit and basically two hit you with a great tryndamere cosplay.

it was awful.

rengar should be made more similar to kha zix. an ult that does no damage but allows to engage and disengage.

subhuman team XD2 votes

i personally agree with everything with what you just said , plus most of us didnt ask for a FULL REVERT , just a partial revert regarding the issues you just mentioned in your post , if it really comes down to it then in my personal opinion , he should be saved for a full VGU or at least a GU , but at least partially revert him to make him at least decent to play again like you just said

sit kid1 votes

I've never really gotten the idea behind removing his old Q just to make his next AA crit when he ults..

I would like to see his old stacking system back too so you dont have to stack up in order to get an empowered ability every time you go in combat, but can keep your stack out of combat.

I really love your idea!

Mister Support3 votes

Ohhhh yeah forgot the stacks used to stay permanently! That would feel a lot better for Rengar players and would make pre-6 ganks much easier with pre-stacked empowered E.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Wasn't the old Q removed because he was too good at dueling with it since there was no way to outmaneuver it?

I can't say i recall but i think it was something like that

And the ferocity was reworked exactly because of his ability to carry around the snare among other things, riot disliked it and thus removed it.

They want him to be at least somewhat bad early x)

Mister Support1 votes

The Q rework was due to the potential for 3 auto attacks all done from resets which could happen all too fast. Hence why the current version of Q has a cast time so it isn't as fast to spam.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

It was something like AA-Q-AA-Q-AA wasn't it? Really quick and it did a ton of damage.

Throw in a tiamant or even the titanic hydra and you have a excellent chain auto reset that is even better than what shyv and trudle can do x)

Mister Support1 votes

Yep! Exactly like that, but with two changes (keeping current ultimate and not resetting CDs when empowerment is available) would really help avoid that.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Isn't the no cd thing between the normal version and the empowered one a large part of why people liked the old rengo Q?

Most of the Rengar mains who wrote on the last few big discussions all wanted the old passive, ferocity system and Q back.

Some even wanted the old invisibility on the ulti back.

'

And when i presented arguments on the following fact:

Its very strange for an assassin, a class with a fundamentally high snowball, to have powerful CC which enables easier ganks.

Old Q was too powerful, not really because of it's base damage and scaling but because of it's function as a auto attack reset. It didn't make sense for a assassin to straight up pommel a fighter to death in a head on fight.

And how problematic perfect and fairly long invisibility that also boosts damage when attacking from within it is for healthy gameplay

All these points i more or less borrowed from riots explanations, and i made a few comments around it.

I got disliked more than at least 20 times on each, worst case when i stated that old Q was too powerful and didn't fit into his kit as an assassin netted me over 50 dislikes.

Also got 30 on the statement that his old ulti was too strong and unhealthy for various reasons.

Altho admittedly i was far from diplomatic about it, i was quite crass after a time of arguing back and forth and with me writing up reasons and using examples which always were called bullshit for XX reasons because XX person felt like this or that.

I also learned that, apparently, if you buy cloth armor as a ADC then old Rengar could apparently not kill you whatever he did unless you stood still tanking him for two days.

Interesting person wrote that, i disagreed which also resulted in a ton of dislikes.

I am starting to think there is a strange amount of rengar mains that don't care a lot for anyone saying that old Rengar wasnt the very picture of healthy gameplay.

Something gave me that impression, something.

Mister Support1 votes

Look back over the OP, I personally believe he should be moved over towards a bruiser than an assassin since it would fit his "Thrill of the Hunt" theme better. And the whole point of these changes is to make him healthier for the game. Frankly, there are ways to keep champions enjoyable while healthy.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Brusier/diver does seem to fit him more than the assassin style due to structure of his kit and story behind him, for while he was a hunter he always went in for the kill himself in melee fightingit out.

Diana is a diver too.

And i do agree, there are ways to keep a champion healthy and enjoyable.

And i understand where the people complaining about his new Q come from ,the ability is clunky and a bit awkward.

Healthiness at the expense of fun was not such a....nice thing to do towards his players.

But in the end i can imagine that they simply didn't know any better way for doing it, this was the best and most refined version they could come up with.

Making healthy and fun abilities sounds like a great thing to do and i am sure Riot also thinks so and wants to do it, they always invest a lot of effort at least.

But just like anyone else they do fail at times, and i won't blame them for that really, some issue's are just not easy x)

I believe Rengar, Malz and Ryze all fall under that category, probably Azir and Akali too.

Maybe even Trist altho not to such an extreme degree.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Might be wrong.but didn't you basically just bring back old Rengo and gave him his current cleans?

How does this solve any of his issues?

Mister Support1 votes

Nope, also have the current version of the ultimate without the guaranteed Crit. Difference between current and old ult was the stealth type. Current is Camouflage while old is Invisibility, Camo can be seen by pink wards and nearby enemies so has more counterplay.

Also, the method of gaining trophies is the same as current Rengar where you have to kill each enemy separately rather than being able to target one person constantly.

Both of these would incentize Rengar to build more towards the bruiser end since the potential counterplay to him is higher but he's less of a stat check since he would hold more utility options in his kit.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Idk really.His current passive gives him %AD.Wouldn't a full AD/lethality build appeal to him more?I mean could beat most ADCs solo,since he would keep the cleans.

EDIT: If I understood correctly.You're bringing his old Q back(which was able to triple Q?),giving him his current bonus AD passive(compered to the older which was more utility focus),keeping the cleans and health restoration and his current R without the crit?

Mister Support2 votes

Also no, I said in the OP to bring back the old rewards for trophies and get rid of the AD bonus. In addition there's adding in a feature where empowered abilities and regular abilities share cooldowns so that you have to plan more for how you are going to get to use what you want, rather than spam everything with a double Q added on.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Thanks for the elaboration.

Secondly,objectively speaking,how wise is it to give assassin point and click damaging abilities? Wouldn't it be better for it be a small cone AoE ability,which can be dodged? Giving him a reliable gap-closer and source of damage could proof to be problematic. What's your stance on this matter?

Variks the Loyal1 votes

The cleanse is not an issue. And it hasn't been an issue since they got rid of the CC immunity.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I do much prefer the current stacking mechanic; hunting each individual enemy champion feels much more satisfying than preying on the same support/adc over and over and over and over again.

Perhaps the bonuses could be changed, to be something other then raw damage, but I'm honestly not sure what they could be right now.

Mister Support1 votes

Could be changed to his old bonuses that would give him utility within his kit. That's far healthier and something much more enjoyable than "moar damage",

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I think the issue was feast-or-famine is more noticable when the bonuses are utility. Without the high trophy bonuses, it was like you were playing an incomplete champion that was only finished after you started snowballing.

I think damage works perfectly, just maybe less damage (And increase his innate scaling damage to compensate, so he evens out at the same overall damage).

Dusk Mane Rengar1 votes

the mechanic itself is pretty interesting, its bonus aren't

Mister Support1 votes

Yyyyyyyep, hence why I want to change the bonuses over to the old utility based version, where it felt like a passive that would scale into late game if you played it correctly.

Shablagoo1 votes

I dont think his w should stay it, before I say why I just want to say, that I think(this is what i think rengar mains want, its mainly what i want but i hope this is what they want) the majority of Rengar mains want him to be a proper assassin that can be healthy for the game so he isnt perma banned. So the reason why w should change is because traditionally its always been the factor in his kit the kept him from being a proper assassin, it was always a fighter ability. So instead of keeping it as a fighter ability why not change it into an escape tool maybe leaping into bushes to get away, idk something that allows for him to be a proper assassin

Variks the Loyal1 votes

That clashes with Rengar's fantasy. He subsists in the thrill of combat, roaring and slashing, and Battle Roar exemplifies that in what is currently a very unique way. The grey health heal actually helps him survive without making him extremely tanky.

Mister Support4 votes

Honesty I believe Rengar should be moved over to a Fighter rather than an Assassin. He's a hunter not a predator. A hunter wants to truly experience the thrill of fighting someone one on one, chasing them down and cornering them until they are forced to fight back.

Rengooo1 votes

This ^

It would help fullfil his lore and fantasy of hunting a single enemy (he particularly enjoys hunting big targets) and killing them. Which is why I felt his old Q did that alot better, it allowed him to go toe to toe with some of the other strong fighters out there.

Shablagoo2 votes

I just want to understand what hunter fights 1v1 against someone, when you think of all hunters they ambush their targets if rengar was something that wanted a 1v1 he would not have assassin like qualities. Or rather he should be a skirmisher?

Mister Support1 votes

Modern hunters, yes, they go for ambush. Same with hunters ever since they adopted the use of range weaponry. But think to most fantasy novels or media that don't give hunters ranged weapons. They are usually depicted to love fighting nature head on to prove themself stronger.

Awoof1 votes

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A hunter wants to truly experience the thrill of fighting someone one on one, chasing them down and cornering them until they are forced to fight back.

That's not at all what a hunter does...

I mean, it does fit Rengar's personality and motivation, I suppose. But still.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Depends on the hunter. If it's a hunter hunting for food then yes, it makes no sense, you want to get your food as easily as possible since you just want to eat and have to worry about living through a confrontation.

If it's a sportsman hunter though then having an easy hunt is a let down for them since they want to get a thrill from what they're doing, they're doing it for their own enjoyment.

Awoof1 votes

Sportsman hunter still don't corner prey until it has to fight back.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Sportsmen hunters will go to ridiculous lengths for their prey though, when Theodore Roosevelt was a young man he and his guide chased after a buffalo for weeks because he refused to give up till he caught it.

Rengar has lived a life in a harsh environment, uses a melee weapon, and is a very strong cat man. If he wants to kill his prey without the use of a trap then he's going to have to get up close an personal and not have the creature just run away.

Rengooo1 votes

Love this, brings back the feel good aspects of his kit, makes him less feast or famine and incorporates the parts of the rework that went well - mainly ferocity, because now he wont just be able to jump on his target with max stacks and obliterate them with it.

Just noticed your edit :/ Personally, whilst I did really like his old ferocity passive it really was a large part of old Rengars problems, and keeping the current system means the empowered ability can be made more powerful and impactful, other wise with the old system it needs to be balanced around being part of his standard insta-burst. If he needs help ganking pre level 6 then just increase the level 1 slow on W.

Thats just my 2 cents anyways.

Mister Support1 votes

What about having cooldowns carry through empowered abilities so that he can't combo a regular and empowered ability at the same time?

Dreadlocks1 votes

I don't see many Rengar mains asking for a 100% Revert. Most of us agree with the community that he needs a half way point from now, and before.

My proposition is, rather than a full revert, meet halfway with what parts have been seen as healthy and perhaps some other changes.

Bring back the old Q, current one is clunky and seems to be overall disliked by most people. Keep most of the current passive (amount of Ferocity needed + bonus MS when ferocity empowerment used) but revert the trophy bonuses so they are utility based rather than stat-based. Keep the method of gathering trophies so Rengar can't simply hunt the same target over and over. Keep current empowered W cleanse and heal so Rengar has a way to get out of or maneuver through fights if played right. Keep current stealth version of Rengar's ultimate (possibly remove the guaranteed crit?). Adjust numbers accordingly so that he'll be in a decent state.

This is pretty much what we all have aimed towards. Though i think the W healing needs to be cut extremely hard and maybe give him cc immunity for 1s if were going to stick to this new W. But the healing part NEEDs to be cut hard. And yes def remove the garunteed crit if he can stack up his ferocity again and isn't fkt in team fights if he cant get the crit marker on his target. Also, go back to needing 5 Ferocity, but dont let the stacks fall off, and make the Rengar player actually have to land his spells again to gain ferocity.

Godbless your soul, and thank you as well for showing respectable support to the Kitty community :)

Cloud2731 votes

The necklace should work like mejai's does. There should be some risk to playing Rengar.

Mister Support1 votes

Frankly, no, that would entail a feast/famine nature even more.

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