The Conqueror nerf does nothing to address the core design problem with it.

TotalJerk·May 13, 2019·31 votes·12,739 views

Sure you can make it weaker, but the strength of the rune isn't necessarily the problem. The problem is how incredibly lopsided the synergy of the rune is. Certain champions stack it way too goddamn fast, and others can barely stack it at all. The champions that want what it offers but can't abuse the mechanics of it are still unable to utilize it. The champions that stack it instantly should not be the ones that get to decide its power for everyone. Change the mechanics of it instead of giving it straight buffs/nerfs.

16 Comments

KazamuruMay 14, 20197 votes

I mean, most of the runes are incredibly "lobsided". For instance, Klepto is just bonkers on , and why can't super tanks like and use Aftershock. Why is Predator so good on MS junglers like and ?

So the runes are not meant to be equally playable across different champions. I think the nerf is really healthy and actually puts it into a very healthy zone where it is distinctly usable by certain champions and provides meaningful choices for others.

TotalJerkMay 14, 20191 votes

Klepto is problematic for the same reason, and Predator isn't very popular because most champions don't really need what it provides.

Z3SleeperMay 14, 20191 votes

Thing is, Conqueror was never meant to be like the other runes -- it was meant to be the core rune for Fighters who before it lacked a real keystone (they had to choose between usually Grasp or something else).

So having an extremely small subset of champions completely skew the rune and get it targeted for direct nerfs directly affects every other champion that isn't busted with it that relies on it.

Like hell, Darius still doesn't have a real keystone because Conq is just that bad on him, that's why he got buffed.

AoE needs to heal for 33%, massively shaving off power from Riven Hecarim and the stacks from ability hits should be limited to 1 per 0.75 seconds (with a small buffer window) with multi-hits granting 1 per 0.75 seconds as well instead of every 5 seconds, once again shaving off power from Riven Hecarim while also affecting ability unloaders like Renekton Kled while also buffing it on Garen Darius DrMundo .

Overall it should flatten out stack generation across the board and make it more universally equal of a keystone while gutting abuse cases like Riven and Hecarim's AoE full healing from it.

I should prolly just make a post on this. Maybe later.

Troll for TrumpMay 14, 20192 votes

Conqueror just exists as a crutch for juggernauts so they can be remotely viable in today's meta. And, even then, many juggers still aren't good picks. Conqueror just emphasizes the statchecking aspect of juggernauts, if anything. It makes sense why other champs want it. The amount of combat stats it gives is ridiculous.

4th3t0sMay 14, 20194 votes

Yet juggs aren't the ones using it, it's almost exclusively picked by divers and 1 or 2 adc's

Z3SleeperMay 14, 20194 votes

Honestly divers are basically just over-tuned hyper-mobile fighters.

They trade a pitiful amount of damage for their mobility and typically their damage is in the form of both burst and sustained while Jugs are almost 100% sustained bar execution ultimates. On top of that they typically boast defensive abilities or passives that far outclass Juggernauts, allowing them to build more damage while also maintaining defensive capability.

I'm not saying anything about the core design of them, I think Divers just have way too much damage for their mobility + defense. Vi is on the come-up as well cuz they finally buffed her durability.

XJ99999999999999May 13, 20191 votes

if other champions can stack it fast that is fine. it means that rune is probably the default rune unless you need to be tanky and take aftershock instead. its ok for a certain rune to be good on a champion.

the problem lies when the rune is so good at that even on champions that can't stack it fast/wouldn't think it'd be good on them are forced to take it because it's just that strong.

why is it strong? Because of the healing. Why does kindred take it? Because she can stack it fast (good) but also because during her ult, she can just Q auto and heal 100-300 hp instantly from conq alone due to conq healing the full amount, no reduced healing.

this is ok late game. damage is so high it's whatever. However, early-mid game, the healing is too much. they would make the healing scale with level. The true damage is actually not as big as it seems, as no one really builds tank, and even if they do, the 10% won't do that much to a full tank sej for example. The raw AD is what makes certain champions bursty. But champions that can abuse that to it's fullest like Rek'sai got nerfed quite hard and is balanced around conq now.

Soul DealerMay 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

if other champions can stack it fast that is fine. it means that rune is probably the default rune unless you need to be tanky and take aftershock instead. its ok for a certain rune to be good on a champion.

the problem lies when the rune is so good at that even on champions that can't stack it fast/wouldn't think it'd be good on them are forced to take it because it's just that strong.

why is it strong? Because of the healing. Why does kindred take it? Because she can stack it fast (good) but also because during her ult, she can just Q auto and heal 100-300 hp instantly from conq alone due to conq healing the full amount, no reduced healing.

this is ok late game. damage is so high it's whatever. However, early-mid game, the healing is too much. they would make the healing scale with level. The true damage is actually not as big as it seems, as no one really builds tank, and even if they do, the 10% won't do that much to a full tank sej for example. The raw AD is what makes certain champions bursty. But champions that can abuse that to it's fullest like Rek'sai got nerfed quite hard and is balanced around conq now.

Agreed. Sustain in this game is actually insane. Get rid of the heal on conq and nerf deaths dance.

TotalJerkMay 13, 201915 votes

Garen doesn't take it at all because he can't stack it for shit. He'd love what Conqueror provides if it weren't for how it actually works. The problem is that the rune has to be balanced around the champions that exploit its mechanics the hardest to the detriment of the champions that want its strengths but can't utilize it nearly as efficiently because of said mechanics.

The rune was intended to be for champions that are compatible for it in terms of class, not mechanics.

SirPurrrMay 14, 20191 votes

I agree with that. It's easy to abuse on some and barely viable on others.

Case in points: AP champions almost universally suck with it. It provides AP from stacks but statistically it's almost never the optimal choice.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it won't be broken in 9.10.

Tahminatrix May 14, 20191 votes

What about adding a soft minimum time along with a maximum time that you can stack conqueror?

Basically it skews the avg stacks per second towards more of an average. (1.5 per second for example)

If you are procing stacks faster than 1.5 per second you will start getting them slightly delayed/buffered, but not so much so that its not worth attacking faster in the first place.

And if you are stacking way too slow you might get an extra one on your next hit.

Spicy RiceMay 14, 20191 votes

I'ts interesting, but I think it'd be a bit too overly complicated of a mechanic to add in

Tahminatrix May 15, 20191 votes

Unfortunately there arnt a lot of simple mechanics you can make up in order to balance an already broken rune (broken as in its effectiveness is incredibly varied)

CevradMay 14, 20191 votes

What do you mean, please for the love of god stop trying to comment on balance when you are a for fun player who doesn't actually know anything. That was a 20% nerf to every conq user's sustain. If your favorite champion got hit with a 20% nerf you would be absolutely pissed. And rightfully so. This is a good start, do I think it should probably go to 7 or 6%? yeah probably, but its a good direction to take.