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Did you know that when you stack Black Cleaver, Lord Dominik's, and Lethality...

WoonStruck··117 votes·12,640 views

You bring a 300 armor target down to ~74, assuming 90 base armor?

#That's taking 4520g away from someone, btw.

item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 item 3047 +runes/masteries brings you there; not exactly giving up HP either, are we? "Should have bought more HP if they bought pen" doesn't apply as a counterargument here.

######edit:You'd probably have Spirit Visage and probably some HP/damage item on top of that, but they don't change the argument so they're irrelevant...**including this because too many people lack common sense apparently, thinking I'm comparing 6 items to 4. **

There's no reason you should be able to invalidate nearly 110% of someone's purchased armor (again, 4520g value) while still getting 40% CDR via itemization (item 3158 item 3071 item 3142), a 15% damage multiplier(item 3036), nearly 240 true damage (item 3147), noticeable defensive stats+10 second spellshield (item 3814item 3071) , and without trading any AD for it (285 bonus AD; ~400 total).

I know this build isn't a glaring issue at the moment, but the fact still stands that there's no real option that you're 'giving up' by purchasing this combination, considering how exponentially more effective each one is with each additional item listed above.

Just saying...maybe you should gate some pen/reduction interactions. Getting all of that shit while taking 4520g away from someone seems a little over the top.

If tanks become strong after the vanguard update, I can guarantee this build becomes very common.

235 Comments

Subject 59 votes

BUT TANK META IS HORRIBLE FGHLJFHOLJFGHJFOGHFGHJOFG

Hehe xd, srry boards is gettin to me- Maokai shuldn't do much damage as an adc- he 1 shots me from lvl 1

chipndip14 votes

Even with the League definition of "One shot" (one rotation of skills), this is impossible.

Quort2 votes

I've been one shot by Maokai before.

Those darn sapling hordes in URF! >:(

MuffledGarbage6 votes

The only champs I could think of that would build all of that and still be viable were adc's and it's Jhin and Lucian.

Both of them wouldn't be very good as adc's in the botlane but maybe as top tank buster off meta stuff at best.

Plus the buildup for Jhin on black cleaver would be extremely slow.

So basically this is a new Lucian build that's also a tankbuster.

EDIT: for those saying MissFortune or melee's could take the build keep in mind that

if it's MF she'll only be an ult.

MF will have to divert almost all her gold on her last two Items to be attack speed Items making any team with CC shut her ult down and make her "OP build" useless.

also I admit that this build would most likely work on a Jayce too now that some people pointed it out.

even a few assassin's Zed Talon

those assassin's will still be super squishy(and MF) and able to be CC'd to stop them.

Considering the amount of Cc that could stop them reliably from most champions.

It's worth saying that the build isn't OP

but is most definitely good on a select few champs

MrHaZeYo37 votes

MissFortune

Proxy34520 votes

{quoted}

MissFortune

One ult and the entire other team is dead lol Even if they have alot of tanks.

SmileInABox6 votes

Or you could not position grouped up, and punish her for standing still. Just a suggestion, but there's a reason she isn't played much at the highest level.

Anags4 votes

But she is played at the highest level especially as support. People play her still as AD in challenger level games.

Not saying she is broken. But she sees play

SmileInABox4 votes

When I said highest level, I meant LCS. Just because in LCS a champions weaknesses are dealt with more consistently. She was initially only played support for Ashe Synergy and Zyra counter then Malz supp turned meta and she counters him well. The only time I've seen her AD in LCS was Flyquest v. Dig and the only reason it worked there was cuz Dig played like monkeys into it.

NineTailedMystic10 votes

LCS, where the game is completely different to what we play.

SmileInABox2 votes

LCS, where the actual power and capability of a champ is showcased.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

No it's not. The power and capability of a champ in a TEAM environment. Afaik we all play soloQ or low level flex q. So if at all we should look at high master/challenger

ADepressedLeona11 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder68/23266068.jpg

WoonStruck21 votes

Yes, you're right. ADCs are the only AD champions in the game. I forgot. Forgive me.

/sarcasm

Also, Black Cleaver stacks can come from any users with Black Cleaver, which is not uncommon for someone else to have.

Jhin may not be the best at stacking it, but in some cases, he doesn't need to be at all.

In addition, auto Q auto W auto is 5 stacks already. If they aren't running from your 4th shot, they're stupid. If they are, you ult and have max stacks for your shots, since if any of them hit, you're at 6. Just FYI.

In response to your edit:

You wouldn't be any squishier than with other builds; in fact others would likely leave you squishier.

CC works on any champion, not just this build. Moot point. You don't see other builds being shut down by CC and you won't see this one either, especially considering Edge of Night.

Watch it come to light in LCS, get spammed everywhere, then get gutted after the Vanguard update. Tell me its not OP then. lol

LVL 5 PORO1 votes

Jhin and Lucian? Hell no. The only ADC that runs Lethality heavily is MF, and that's because he passive allows her to do so without sacrificing AD.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Varus, Jhin, MF, Quinn, Graves all go for full lethality or can make use of it. All are marksmen. So no it is not only mf

Emerald Fang6 votes

And this is when Riot announces they are coming out with "anti-lethality", reducing the target's lethality. And the cycle continues.

Spoofghoul5 votes

And this is why i build almost no armor

usually about 180, which gives 60%+ vs no armorpen so it's good enough for tanking objectives and turrets and people without pen

and vs just lethality i still get something like 45-50% and vs people with just a lastwhisper this ends up being around 55%

but vs lethality and shit like black cleaver and or dominiks/ mortal there is no amount of armor which is effective in any way so building any more then 180 is wasted gold really

honestly, after building your Mr item and armor item your better of building damage + hp items like item 3078 item 3748 item 3071 item 3053 item 3022 for ad focused frontline or item 3027 item 3116 item 3152 item 3151 for ap focused frontliners

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

I stopped building full armor on my naut as well. Mostly sunfire, spirit/banshee, redemption, locket.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

You really don't have 'noticeable defensive stats'. Maybe against the tank with the least damage in the game, but you'll still be oneshot. Hell defensive boots would be a much better choice than Lucidity.

Also that's the two tank shred items combined with Lethality. If tank shred items can't kill tanks, then... what can?

WoonStruck5 votes

You don't think 300 HP, a 10 second spellshield, and 35 MR helps at all? Its not significant, no, but its noticeable. Stop playing semantics to ignore a point.

#Was the same MR and ~300 Hp shield noticeable when it was there during assassin Maw of Malmortius meta?

Don't you dare say no lol.

10% CDR runes, boom. Defensive boots. You're missing the point.

The problem isn't the 'tank shred items', its how effective they at being an armor disincentive for anyone buying under 200 armor AND also invalidating large amounts of purchased armor, while Lethality removes the rest.

Teridax684 votes

I think this raises the question as to why anti-tank items even exist in the first place. The entire purpose of tankiness is to resist damage against everyone, be they assassins, fighters, mages or marksmen. The only reason why fighters and marksmen are considered anti-tank classes is because they specialize in DPS, and DPS naturally counters static reserves of raw health. By contrast, assassins and mages are weak against tanks because burst can't chew through tons of health on its own, and leaves them open to counterattack during their downtimes. At no point should burst champions require access to anti-tank damage, and anti-tank classes themselves should be innately equipped to deal with lots of raw health without specific counter items.

A big issue with items like TBC or Last Whisper is that, as items, they're available to everyone: everyone gets to counter tank purchases just by buying an item, which essentially means tanks end up having their entire builds devalued constantly. In turn, however, that means tanks need compensation, and has led to inflated stats on tank builds: since tank items are also cheap, and have gotten cheaper over time, it's easy, and not all that uncommon, for tanks to snowball off of an item lead and turn into unkillable monsters until people finally start investing into counter items. This has been especially irritating on faux-tank builds like Ekko, Yasuo and Fizz, who exploited these excessive stats to become far too durable for their own good.

Because of this, I think anti-tank itemization is one of those things that needs to go in order to have a healthier overall environment. Riot's been implementing far too much anti-tank damage recently, which I think highlights issues with their combat pacing, and I think that the more "natural" anti-tank itemization options should be any DPS-enhancing item. Similarly, I think Lethality's also a flop, and I think the "natural" counter to squishies should be items that provide additional burst. In both cases, though, armor reduction, armor pen and Lethality are all very opaque, math-y stats that offer little in the way of direct gameplay feedback, and serve only to counter certain classes through pure devaluation of their own power. Removing them would not only likely make tankiness easier to balance, but would also make overall damage much clearer to understand (as opposed to "why am I getting shredded by this Kha'Zix when I have 4k health and 300 armor").

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

And is exactly why tanks always feel so weak; they have to be overbearing to feel effective.

Harut3 votes

I couldn't possibly agree more. I don't think penetration/reduction has any place in the game. There are too many AD stats in the game right now, AD, AS, Crit, Lifesteal, Leathality, % Armor Reduction, Damage Multiplication, % Health Damage (both max and current)...Each of these stats have their own power curves that interact with each other based on the opponents defensive stats. Its no wonder that it has been such a struggle to balance.

SwordOfWar4 votes

Only a handful of champs would even build that combination, and dominics plus infinity edge and zeal items will kill tanks more effectively actually.

SrbLud3 votes

Basically you think it's not fair for one sort of itemization to counter another one...Got it...

WoonStruck31 votes

Not counter/reduce. Invalidate.

Invalidating another players' choices is the issue here, while not giving anything up for it.

Can you try a real argument now?

SrbLud4 votes

{quoted}

Not counter/reduce. Invalidate.

Invalidating another players' choices is the issue here, while not giving anything up for it.

Can you try a real argument now?

It doesn't invalidate it. You still get other stats. Do they somehow take away all that HP you got stacked...didn't think so. How about the regen...huh... And the passives...do they stop working...

So yeah they counter your armor and armor only. Think it through before you say invalidate.

WoonStruck19 votes

Hard countering a soft-counter is the definition of invalidating.

Think it through before you argue semantics.

I didn't say it invalidated the items. It invalidates the armor, which is effectively 4.5k of the gold you're spending.

Meanwhile the AD isn't giving anything up to invalidate that armor; they even benefit if nobody buys armor.

#'Countering' is not healthy if it has no trade-offs.

10110011100014 votes

item 3036 provides 15% physical damage amplification to tanks, eseentially, meaning that this item is effectively removing health from an enemy's kit while simultaneous giving its % bonus armor penetration.

Alternatively, if you're facing a heal-heavy comp instead (or a Mundo), item 3033 cuts out 40% of their regeneration and healing.

Not to mention Randuin's reduced crit damage passive is useless against a full armor pen build that has no crit.

In typical armor/health stacking fashion, item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 Are left with a movement speed passive, 2 slows (one an active, the other a passive), a small AS slow, and a slow burning magic damage AoE dot, almost no real armor, and significantly reduced health pool values.

Literally every tank stat sees extremely diminished returns. ANd in the face of heavy hp tanking, item 3142 gets replaced by item 3153 .

Tanks are literally fucked.

Narsicus1 votes

Buying armor is absolutely NOT invalidated here.

The person that bought armor is still getting somewhere close to 40% damage reduction, even when their opponent spent literally ALL their money trying to bypass it. How much damage reduction would the armor buyer be getting if they didn't buy armor? I'm guessing roughly 0%, so even when talking about straight counter builds buying armor is still extremely valuable.

Also, I always wonder why no one talks about how armor 'invalidates player's choices' by making lethality less valuable. The same argument works equally well, that player spent all that money on lethality but had it's effects 'invalidated' by the other players buying armor. They even get the extra benefits of active slows and move speed/initial burst!

I guess people just aren't angry at tanks in general right now. When the wind shifts I am sure we will see threads talking about this subject from the exact opposite point of view with the exact same argument.

Skias3 votes

{quoted}

Buying armor is absolutely NOT invalidated here.

The person that bought armor is still getting somewhere close to 40% damage reduction, even when their opponent spent literally ALL their money trying to bypass it. How much damage reduction would the armor buyer be getting if they didn't buy armor? I'm guessing roughly 0%, so even when talking about straight counter builds buying armor is still extremely valuable.

Also, I always wonder why no one talks about how armor 'invalidates player's choices' by making lethality less valuable. The same argument works equally well, that player spent all that money on lethality but had it's effects 'invalidated' by the other players buying armor. They even get the extra benefits of active slows and move speed/initial burst!

I guess people just aren't angry at tanks in general right now. When the wind shifts I am sure we will see threads talking about this subject from the exact opposite point of view with the exact same argument.

Try like 30ish damage reduction. You'll be dead in seconds in a team fight.

Narsicus1 votes

Because apparently it matters, 74 armor roughly equals 42.5% damage reduction.

And last time I checked 42.5% was quite a bit higher than 0%.

For example, if we want to talk about effective hp it takes a 3k health target to about 5.7k health. So even with this 'invalidated' armor, it netted 2700 effective hp vs physical. (edit because I'm tired and can't do math)

Also, I never understand why people insist that no matter your defenses 'youll be dead in seconds in a team fight'. The inherent assumption here is that 'tanks die to fast', but no one ever seems to specify how long tanks should live in the first place only that whatever is happening apparently isn't long enough.

Backup4now5 votes

74 armor on 3k hp = 5220 effective health, which is well within one-rotation range of an adc. Lucian with the build specified can easily reach 400 AD, and with mastery amp/lord domidicks that's a 4680 damage ult. Add in a single auto after, and it's over. With a bit of assistance (janna shield, fire dragon) the ult can easily reach 5220, making it a one-ability kill on a full tank.

Also, for future reference, the easy way to calculate EHP with resistance on health, instead of turning the resist into a % and applying that to health, just do 1 resist = 1% more ehp. So, 100 armor 1000 health = 2000 ehp.

Skorch2 votes

What does armor and MR do in the first place?

Abyssphere3 votes

You guys are complaining about armour penetration in a meta where tanks are basically invincible. Come on. If armour pen was this overwhelming (and apparently without trade-off) then you would see ADCs building like this, bursting tanks and then going on to kill everyone else anyway.

Maybe investing your entire build into ignoring a lot of one champion's stats isn't as OP as it seems?

WoonStruck4 votes

You know, if you asked, you'd hear me say that armor is too effective before penetration/reduction items as well.

All of the issues with tanks come from the overloaded damage in the game, combined with the potency of resists before the counter-itemization is purchased...which then makes those resists near-useless.

Both sides are completely fucked by the current system; its only a difference of which period in the game its happening in.

Its something Riot should fix, but refuses to.

Disulfiram3 votes

And the reason it's not going to be fixed is not a mystery: a Malphite insta-blowing up someone is vastly more enjoyable to watch than a Fiddlesticks heal-tanking. Burst is flashier and makes for a better show, even when the ones 100->0ing enemies shouldn't be able to.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Tanks invincible? Are we talking about naut, malph or vi, heca? Because i barely see tanks even getting picked. Only poppy and maokai.

General Esdeath 3 votes

Talon I don't like math

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

yet then again to counter armor shred is to stack HP so people will start running more HP build and runes and less stacking of armor ...

WoonStruck4 votes

Then your ADC, top, or jungle takes BotRK. What now?

The only thing that changes is the stacking of armor+HP->just HP(which opens you up to a slew of other issues), not the build mentioned being absurd.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

i never said you woudlnt have armor ... you will always have some armor

but when it comes to the amount of armor pen by % and flat ignoring armor ... it would be more beneficial to get more hp then armor .

but its every changing , that is why you need to build accordingly to what you are facing in game... just like you are vs a heavy ap , hard cc comp you dont stack randiums and frozen hearts...

you get HP and MR

if you are vs champs that have % hp damage having armor dont help... and it dont help vs true damage either

but in the situation you purposed instead of getting 250 - 300 armor and 3000 hp

maybe 200 armor and 3500 hp you make adjustments

and if the team you are facing start building bork and other items vs hp then you counter with a bit more armor

to blindly build one way or the other isnt correct

press the TAB BUTTON in game see what items are being built and when and by who... and look at death recaps to see what it is killing you

thought you were smart enough to know this already

WoonStruck7 votes

The problem that comes with 'buy more HP instead of armor' is that in most cases, you'd end up wanting item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 which are all exactly 1:1 on the armor:HP-> EHP:gold efficiency scale.

They are barely less than the highest HP items, which only include item 3022 which would still leave you squishier unless your kit includes defensive steroids, and item 3083, which you're spending 3k gold on 800 Hp for, since the regen rarely applies outside of poke comps and straight objectives, which go hand-in-hand.

Basically, the best choice would still be those 3 items mentioned earlier. They give you the highest EHP, even after you consider the armor reduction you'd be hit with.

"Stack HP" build ends up being exactly the same as "stack armor" build, especially considering you'd probably be getting a spirit visage in there too for your MR.

#Good luck getting significantly more than 2k bonus HP in 4 items without 2 out of 4 of those items and without having lower EHP.

######Hint: Its not possible.

RexSaur1 votes

So someone with 5 items focused on penetration should do no damage to tanks.

Okay, never change boards.

WoonStruck5 votes

Consider that the build more effectively kills squishies.

Okay, never change RexSaur.

Nebuul1 votes

You are incorrect.

item 3071 = 30% total armor reduction (applied first) item 3036 = 45% bonus armor penetration (applied second) lethality = applied last

So let's take your 300 armor tank. We'll say Taric, for argument's sake: 83 base armor + 217 bonus armor = 300 armor 300 x .7 = 210 armor 210 - 83 = 127 127 x .55 = 70 armor 70 + 83 = 153 armor remaining

You would need 79 armor pen from lethality to get down to 74 armor. You are showing 30. If they max lethality runes and glyphs, that is still just 62 total lethality. So your target still has 93 armor.

WoonStruck3 votes

You are incorrect.

It is not '10 lethality per item'.

There are 3 Lethality items. Ghostblade provides 20, the other two 15.

That is 50 total. +24 from runes. +8.5 from masteries. That is ~83 total.

Anyone that's stacking Lethality should be using Lethality Runes. That means ~33 Lethality at level 1, bringing ~20-27 armor down to basically 0. At level 1. As you purchase Lethality, you match the rate of their armor growth.

This provides more damage than 15 AD would, so its worth. Only disadvantage is CSing, which shouldn't be an issue since you have a support.

Also, where did I say 83 base armor? I said 90.

You should have 156 armor before Lethality is applied. I rounded down the .5 in OP, FYI. That's why its 74 instead of 73 or 73.5.

FireDrizzle1 votes

You don't even need to build black cleaver to benefit from it, if an ally builds it. A lot of AD champs that don't want attack speed(and prefer Trifoce) build it. That leaves room for a lifesteal or defensive item but still ignoring as much armour as detailed in this thread . Loads of champs even reduce armour by % without black cleaver, like Darius, VI, Wukong, Renekton, Urgot, Kayle, Kogmaw and thats just off the top of my head.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

{quoted}

You don't even need to build black cleaver to benefit from it, if an ally builds it. A lot of AD champs that don't want attack speed(and prefer Trifoce) build it. That leaves room for a lifesteal or defensive item but still ignoring as much armour as detailed in this thread . Loads of champs even reduce armour by % without black cleaver, like Darius, VI, Wukong, Renekton, Urgot, Kayle, Kogmaw and thats just off the top of my head.

Darius doesnt shred armor, he has innate pen for himself. Real men dont give a fuck about the team.

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