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Now That Veigar Can't Cheese Stun, Can We Make Dark Matter Closer To Cho's Rupture Reliability Wise?

DrCabes··83 votes·3,821 views

Damage: Dark Matter: 120 / 170 / 220 / 270 / 320 (+ 100% AP) Rupture: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 305 (+ 100% AP)

Spell Radius: Dark Matter - 112.5 Rupture - 175

Time Delay: Dark Matter - 1.25s Rupture - 0.625

Range: Dark Matter - 900 Rupture - 950

Cost: Dark Matter: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 MANA Rupture: 90 MANA

Cooldown Dark Matter: 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 Rupture: 9

Crowd Control Dark Matter: None Rupture: 1s knockup and 1.5s 60% slow

Cho's Rupture has half the delay and equal damage with 2.5 seconds of cc attached. Given Veigar's main tool for landing Dark Matter was made very situational, why hasn't Dark Matter received real compensation buffs. All Dark Matter got was less mana cost and lower cooldown but neither really matter when the spell never lands.

Edit:

This isn't about nerfing Cho or directly comparing Veigar to Cho, this is just comparing two 100% ap scaled aoe abilities. When the topic of buffing Veigar's Dark Matter is brought up many people say it would be op to buff. I'm just pointing out there's already a better version of that ability in the game so why not buff Veigar's a little. Not a lot, but at least a little.

42 Comments

kile14725 votes

They have very different kits and it's generally bad form to compare to abilities like this without looking at the rest of the kit. I agree that Veigar could use some buffs on his W, but improving its reliability to rupture standards would be bad because late game with Veigar this move will chunk half a squishy's health away. If you don't see a problem with semi-reliably chunking half health at long range see Nidalee complaints. I want to see him buffed but this would be a little much, I'd much rather see it be more useful early game.

There's another thread (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VvBbQZNz-possible-veigar-changes) where the OP makes an interesting suggestion for a Dark Matter buff among other things. I also have a post there with an idea of my own.

RIP Tahm Kench9 votes

Cho provides even less counterplay than Veigar when he's built AP mid though. He can grab an abyssal and zhonia and have enough tankiness to get two QW combos in a teamfight with 30% cdr from masteries and morello.

The only things that Veigar has over Cho is his stacking AP that might get him +160 ap late game, and a longer hard cc. Most of the time Cho's ult will out damage Veigar's because it's true damage, the only downside being that it's melee range.

Tldr: Chogath is Veigar but better.

RIP Tahm Kench2 votes

Comparing just ultimates (and adding in Veigar's Q ap):

At 500 (+150 Q ap for Veigar) ap: Cho ultimate deals 650 + 350 = 1000 true damage

Veigar ultimate does 500 + 650 = 1150 magic damage

Which with 35% pen + 15 pen deals 733 (+53 % of target's ap) magic damage to a 100 MR champ

And 974 (+68% of target's ap) magic damage to a 50 MR champ

So somewhere near 40 MR Veigar out damages Cho with his ult (assuming his target has no AP) at late game ap levels.

ChaoticPinecone6 votes

plus, you know, range.

Aevo 551 votes

That awkward moment you realize Veigar doesnt have 500 AP, he has 1000...

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

Well I'm assuming he didn't buy just pure damage like deathcap, hourglass, echo, void, rylia. And say late game is considered 35 minutes, a silver/gold might have about 250 cs with half of them Q stacked and he has a deathcap so 125 x 1.3 = 160.

But of course, rough estimates, I don't even count ap from kills; or weird builds like deathcap, echo, zhonia, zhonia, zhonia, zhonia.

Rew7112 votes

I want to compare Cho'Gath to Zac.

Yes Zac has the better passive allowing Zac to revive up to half health and giving 4% (of his health) heals, but Cho'Gath's isn't far behind as it gives both mana and health for any kill.

Compare the Q's. Cho'Gath sends out the damage 80/135/190/245/305 (+100% AP). This ability has a area effect but can be avoided. If not avoided, enemies are sent into the air and afterwards slowed. Cho'Gath sends out this ability from a safe distance. This ability has a low cost for late but high for early.

Zac sends out damage equal to 70/110/150/190/230 (+50% AP). The ability has area effect but can be avoided. If not avoided, it deals damage and enemies are slowed. Zac sends out this ability up close in a 550 range. This ability has a 4% health damage to Zac.

Zac's is comparably weaker, dealing less base damage and lacking in AP. The price for using Zac's Q does not diminish in late game, and this carries a high burden.

Compare the W's. Cho'Gath sends out a feral scream that deals 75/125/175/225/275 (+70% AP) damage. This ability is also an area effect, that deals to an range of 700 (there's a typo on the Champion Info page btw). Those hit are silenced for a short period. The cost for this goes to a high amount in late game.

Zac sends out a area damage of 40/55/70/85/100 (+4/5/6/7/8% (+2% per 100AP)) to enemies in the radius. The area effect is at a range of 350. If Zac collects blobs, the short cool down is lessened by a second per blob. The cost is 4% of Zac's health.

Though Zac's W can deal some damage, Cho'Gath deals way more and even has a silence.

Compare the E's. Cho'Gath is a toggle-able passive that allows Cho'Gath to deal 20/35/50/65/80 (+30 AP) bonus damage. This ability is also an area effect, dealing damage to those behind the one he attacks. Those hit are dealt the bonus damage. This ability costs no mana, and has a range of 500.

Zac flings himself to an enemy dealing 80/130/180/230/280 (+70% AP). This ability also has an area effect, but is can be avoided. Those hit are knocked back for 1 second. The range for this ability is 1150/1250/1350/1450/1550 though the time to get ready increases from 0.9/1/1.1/1.2/1.3 seconds. The cost is 4% of Zac's health.

I would want to say Zac wins this one, but since Cho'Gath's if free, and deals damage to multiple enemies faster Cho'Gath's E is better since Zac has to channel to send out his powerful attack.

Compare the R's. Cho'Gath deals 300/475/650 (+70% AP) true damage to his opponent (deals1000 (+70% AP) damage to minions). This ability has no channels needed and is an automatic damage. If enemy is killed, Cho'Gath gains 90/120/150 health per each time he kills the enemy (stacks up to 6 times). Cho'Gath also gains 3.8/6.1/8.3 bonus attack range per stack. The cost is 100 mana. Cool down is 80 seconds.

Zac deals 140/210/280 (+40% AP) damage when his ultimate first hits an enemy, the damage is reduced by half if it hits the same enemy. Enemies hit for the first time are knocked back for 1 second, they are not knocked back for the next few. Zac bounces 4 times, each dealing damage. (The max damage is 350/525/700 (+100% AP) if the enemy is hit all 4 times.) There is no cost for this ultimate. The cool down is 130/115/100 seconds.

And again, the winner is Cho'Gath. Why? Because he deals the damage in an instant, and get the kill and gain the buff. Zac on the other hand may deal more damage in the end, knocks the enemy away from him, Zac then may only be able to deal 3 out of the 4 bounces on the enemy dealing less than Cho'Gath's ultimate in the end.

Zac is too weak. He could really use some buffs to his sustain, or at least his damage.

We could do 1 of these two buffs:

[P] Zac is spread out into 4 pieces of himself that each have 14% of his current health. If they all reach the center, he revives with up to 50% of his health. Zac is spread out into 4 pieces of himself that each have 25% of his current health. If they all reach the center, he revives 100% of his health.

[Q] New Zac can now collect blobs.

[W] Cost lowered to 3% from 4% of Zac's health.

or

[W] 2% per 100 ability power decreased to 2% per 50 ability power.

[E] 0.9/1/1.1/1.2/1.3 seconds decreased to 0.7/0.8/0.9/1/1.1 seconds.

[R] 140/210/280 magic damage increased to 140/220/300 magic damage.

The first one allows Zac to be more tanky and better in his late game. The revive is now less easy to one shot, you guys know its true, and since he relies on health, 50% is too harsh. The other two are for better sustain as well.

The second is for his damage. Tanks in this meta are allowed to deal good damage, his W should be no exception. If were able to get 600 AP, why do I only get +3% damage. Now you can deal +6% damage if you went from tank to AP in late game. His E already deals good damage, but that time to activate is something else. I can handle waiting 1.1 seconds on max. His ultimate also should deal more if every other bounce deals half the damage. Since his AP can go up to 100%, allowing him to deal up to 350/550/750 damage isn't much if he lands every hit.

Critmaster Garen16 votes

what if they increased the area of dark matter and have it deal more damage in the center, and 50% to 60% on the outer edge? (similar how the aoe effect of hydra works).

you still have to remember that there is a large ap scaling on the ability, and the delay and area are not much different than brands w for example. its pretty much a standart for a regular long range aoe ability of that size.

but if the damage would fall off, and the spell would deal more in the center (as a reward for locking someone down with a stun to hit him with the center of the spell), the area could be made larger so he can at least get some reliable damage out of it.

it would be a bit harder to walk out of it, but at the same time he wouldnt hit for the full damage if you do move out of the way. so the ability would basically be a bit more reliable without being opressive. just a middleground between getting hit by a crapton of damage from large range, and the ability often being entirely wasted for the veigar.

it would just make hitting a stun with veigar more rewarding at the same time.

Dr Poro1 votes

I <3 this idea!

lB2kGRlc8y11 votes

Unfortunately, all this will accomplish is getting Chogath nerfed, changing Veigar for the better in any meaningful way would basically be admitting they fucked up in the first place, and just look at Zilean and Cass. Incomplete reworks are the thing currently.

Mongoose2 votes

{quoted}

all this will accomplish is getting Chogath nerfed,

i see no issue

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

Assassin main?

Aevo 551 votes

But... They didn't fuck up... they added a .75 delay on his stun (oh no its not insta-win anymore), took 20% off his ult, but made it so his Q can get twice as much AP.

WuWo2 votes

But they also made his W useless stand alone. His stun is hard to land on any opponent with a brain. That's 2/3rds his basic kit right there.

And, yes, his Q can get twice as much AP. But, in reality, it doesn't come close to twice. Your Q only gets AP if you kill a target; the amount of minions that spawn in 10 minutes is still the same. Plus, there are very rare opportunities you can safely farm minions in a straight line. Without Q to harass and Veigar being forced to play like Nasus, Veigar is pressured hard and his lane is usually lost at high level play. Since his W is completely out of the equation, Veigar is forced to farm to beef up his Q and R. By the time Veigar becomes relevant, the game is usually over.

Silents4291 votes

Don't actually play Zilean but his rework was technically a success. Given I went from never seeing him to seeing him support pretty common now.

I think his stun needs to be a little more reliable.

dEAdbUs6 votes

Veigar is ok now, needs much more skill, but he can be very scary.

Edt: Mate you may downvote me, but I met some Veigars, they were very impressive (about 20-5-10).

Aevo 551 votes

Finally somebody understands... People get so sad when their champ gets reworked and just QQ about it instead of learning how to play them again.

Reazale1 votes

Yes, i have to agree, but Veigar wants to have no interaction in lane , he just want to farm til min 20+//teamfights, and he is weak as fuk in lane whit no real means to harass and even if u could half of the time is not worth it... It really piss me off everytime i know i could have pushed some1 out of lane whit the old Q that i cant now cos its the worse kind of skill shot in game ,a limited 2 target aoe that gets no benefit from single target spell vamp/ rylai.

He is not bad, the lanning pattern feels aweful...

Ternt4 votes

I still don't get these posts about Veigar. I've seen plenty of very good Veigars roll face in ranked. I mainly think it's people who can't just finger fuck their keyboard and get kills who complain about his kit changes.

Reazale2 votes

Balance wise he isnt bad right now, but the lanning and 1v1 scenarios feel like complete and utter shit... I think thats the problem.

Celosar4 votes

If this didn't hit for upwards of 1300dmg late game, I would agree. At most I would increase the area it hits by a small amount, maybe 100?

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

I'd take a ratio nerf just to get it more reliable. A high damage spell that rarely hits is hardly worth it.

A buff id actually think would work without changing much is if if there was a delay on the shadow.. Like you cast it and the shadow starts as a single pixel and grows larger the closer it gets..

Aevo 554 votes

Veigar isnt supposed to be a "Look mom, no stun!" He's not Kogmaw... He needs his stun before he can delete you. Ratio nerf would make him really bad. they already took 20% off of his ult

MasterVidallis3 votes

This is the one thing veigar is missing and should have been part of his rework. Lowering the delay on dark matter so that if aimed right and the person doesn't react fast enough you can land it without cc, brand's W is a better comparison. Not super reliable, it can still be dodged, but it can also be landed if timed well. The fact he has one CC and it's unreliable makes his W being reliant on a CC just shitty. This would make him balanced again.

AhhShucks3 votes

I'd like to see the stun go down instantly on the portion closest to Veigar, and then close into a complete circle over the current delay time. That takes away the crazy extremely huge instant engage range it had before while still making it a useful "oh shit" defensive option.

SolusInCadere1 votes

^

Jorgélicious3 votes

You are comparing apples to oranges. Why do you want champions to be more like each other. How about learn veiger and get "Gud" with him, learn his ins and outs. Actually spend time to not play "LCS OP" champions and take pride in mastering a champion that is more difficult to play

Aevo 553 votes

People still think Veigar needs buffs. That's cute.

Rudeness aside, I think he's in a really good position right now. The only reason chogath's rupture is better is because #1, he doesnt have an AOE stun, and #2 he can't get infinite AP. Veigar just needs to farm. People cant be worrying about dodging your .75 second delay stun when they're in the middle of a teamfight, so just throw it in the middle of them. Press W once and you're bound to hit SOMETHING. People want Veigar to be good at harassing in lane when that would just make him way too good for much fast his AP is generated now.

WuWo2 votes

Veigar just needs to farm.

The difference before the update was that Veigar could be played multiple ways. Now he's forced to farm to beef up his Q as his W/E is no longer relevant.

Press W once and you're bound to hit SOMETHING.

That's not called strategy. That's called wishful thinking.

People want Veigar to be good at harassing in lane when that would just make him way too good for much fast his AP is generated now.

Changing his W won't really affect his harass in lane. If you played Veigar, you would know about his obscenely high mana costs early game. Since his mana pool is small early, his passive won't support continuous usage of W to harass. Using W to harass would make you go OOM and, consequently, render you dead meat. Not to mention his W has a laughably small hitbox (ironic since it's a freaking space meteor). Even if you speed it up to a 1 sec delay time on his W, the sheer size and the delay still makes it easily dodge-able.

Edit: To make things worse, his W also tells the opponent where it's gonna land. But hey, that's counterplay, right?

Reazale1 votes

Point #1 is irrelevant, cho gath has 1 sec knowup+slow (U CANT CLEANSE KNOCKUPS) on a lesser cd and an AoE 2.5 sec silence. So it should all come down to the free AP which the way Veigar works currently should be a reason to hold him back, he doesnt have a realiable CC and he is still short ranged (his ult still has the same range), if other mages are allowed to Harass in lane why shouldnt Veigar be able to do it? (im not even mentioning that Veigar is still really weak against QSS, Mercury and banshee)

Curling Veigar2 votes

He's a "work in progress", said by a red like a month ago when 5.6 came out. lol

Jungle Lux God2 votes

There really is no reason why Veigar should not have a more reliable source of damage.

Counterplay is important on any ability, but when your counterplay is 1.25 seconds where you can see the landing zone of a spell and dodge it effortlessly is a little bit too much.

Otherwise, I would expect Veigar to instagib someone by landing this skill by itself. And it doesn't quite do that at this point.

His Goatliness2 votes

To be fair, cho doesn't end up with 1200 ap at the end of games. More or less half of that generally.

Saianna6 votes

Because he doesn't have to.

Veigar, on other hand, doesn't have much options. He, unlike Cho, benefits only from AP.

People say that lategame Veigar kills trgets with just Q + R. Most of assassins do the same, while they still have lower cooldowns & mobility.

Tbh i'd prefer fighting against feed veigar than mediocre Zed, LB, Cho. Because you can actually kill Veigar.

Lord Malice2 votes

I personally think the Veigar Re-work was completely un-warranted, in my opinion he was only changed because someone found a way to make him a viable support, and as always, whenever this happens riot must destroy that champ's ability to play as they were originally intended. But what's done is done, the simplest solution would be to change the Event horizon spell all together. My suggestion would be to make it a Black hole that acts like a gravity sink where it's cast, allowing the target to move slower or faster based on how far away from the center of the spell they are. And then of course if they move toward the center they would speed up. This allows for all kinds of "skill" and "counter play" that apparently Veigar never needed or had...(please note the heavy sarcasm)

If the only reason that Veigar was "Toxic" was because he had a stun, then replace the stun with a slowy AOE gravity ball. proper use of the spell should allow for more E-->W combo's that EVERY Veigar player wishes they could still do.

Lauricella31 votes

i think they should lower the delay a bit, maybe even lower the stun duration to compensate, or increase it's ratio to 1.1ap.

junglerboy161 votes

Oh please no, Cho's rupture hitbox is so unreliable it makes me pull my hair out when I play him. I've had people standing inside the circle with spike passing through them not get knocked up. The delay may be shorter, but it isn't that much more reliable (usually you need a Rylai's slow on your scream in order to be able to line up a rupture well.

Lissama1 votes

Nerf Cho`gath, right?

Kuroi861 votes

I just wish they'd trim off a bit of the cast time and like .25 off the delay.

It doesn't need to be a super fast or instantaneous spell, but at the moment it really sucks at hitting enemies or denying them as they can just run through it long before it drops.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

cho's rupture has an RNG stat you seem to be forgetting. its not 1 second flat. Its a random chance.

Llanite1 votes

X champ has something similar to a Y's spell, hence Y should have his spell buffed !

By this logic, Leblanc W is better than Ezreal's E, hence, Ez E should also leave a return pad.

Squidblimp1 votes

Either this, or make Veigar's cage slow you while you are inside it so you can land Dark Matter more easily. Or, if Veigar hits you with an ability while you are inside the cage, you are stunned?

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