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@Riot Can Veigar get an E that Stuns or a Kit Based on Trapping

DrCabes··55 votes·2,867 views

The initial nerf gave the impression that Veigar was intended to trap his opponent while the buff to remove cast time and reduce delay time imply he's still supposed to stun with it. Then a buff comes that stops enemies from dashing through it which goes back to trapping again.

Right now Veigar is suffering from an identity crisis. His kit is based on the premises that he can stun his target while he currently can't. I understand that his old E was a a bit OP but Veigar either needs a completely new E that can actually stun a target without being OP or a new kit that benefits him for trapping targets.

The Final Boss shouldn't be forced to cower under tower defensless the whole game

Edit:

The main problem with his E in my opinion is that it is strictly situational in both offensive and defensive situations which isn't good for an immobile character with only one spell to use either to engage or disengage. It can only be used offensively if you have a teammate with cc themselves to help you land it, and it can only be used defensively if the opponent has no dash/blink. The cage may stop dashes but anyone with a dash can easily dash out to you before the cage is up.

Veigar should be able to more reliably use it to either defend himself or engage on another character. Having it purely situational for both just makes playing Veigar feel awkward and in danger most of the game.

57 Comments

Crett13 votes

AGREE

WuWo11 votes

I don't know. I always played Veigar because he was straightforward. He's simple and there is nothing wrong with that.

You're right that Veigar is weird right now because his stun has been reduced in reliability without Riot addressing the fact that his W revolves around his stun. The simple fix is to keep his E as is, but make his W more reliable by reducing delay time per rank or increasing impact radius.

That said, I don't want Veigar to revolve his entire kit to be based off his E (like the old days, stun -> kill) or what many other people have suggested, e.g. Q/W/R has special effects on targets inside E. For the former, it made Veigar very boring. For the latter, it just adds an extra dimension of unnecessary complexity.

Edit: I think Veigar should have skills that are stand-alone but can synergize with each other, BUT without forcing special interactions on it.

Mathbalnase9 votes

E change I was advocating when his nerfs first came out:

remove stun entirely edge of E becomes simply impassable (except by blink/teleport/flash/etc) E contracts/shrinks over its duration, pushing in (but not disabling as other displacement effects do) those who would otherwise then be outside the radius

Gorgiolio3 votes

Yeah, but that kinda puts J4's ult into a basic skill. Just less damage.

Mathbalnase8 votes

no damage. Also no leap.

stuartk114 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but that kinda puts J4's ult into a basic skill. Just less damage.

I don't like that idea though. He would be played as a support instead of a mage because he would have effectively a Jarvan ultimate up every 15 seconds (and every fight), and this is something that Riot was trying to avoid with them rightfully nerfing his E, but not addressing his mage-style issues.

Gorgiolio1 votes

I am also disagreeing with it lol.

stuartk112 votes

{quoted}

I am also disagreeing with it lol.

I feel that the main problem with Veigar as a mage is currently the fact that 2 of his 3 basic abilities have long delays as part of their cast time. He feels really clunky now, and hardly worth playing over pretty much most mages. I don't know why they felt the need to buff his E after the changes they made. It was his W that I felt should have been addressed, so that it didn't rely on his E to land (or, at least, didn't rely on a stun for him to land it).

DeusVult1 votes

I preferred another idea that I had heard

E no longer stuns, just impassable and stops dashes enemies inside the box have all vision outside of the box turned into FoW

CubedJustice1 votes

That would turn Veigar into an insanely strong support.

Sigma1175 votes

They need to do something more with his kit than what they've done but I highly doubt they're going to go through so much effort for an unpopular champion.

If Lee Sin were to be changed they'd listen to feedback on everything and bend to it, Riot have already proved they're willing to bend over for Lee Sin fans in the past.

Conncept4 votes

I think a new trapper theme would fit him pretty well, he is after all a maniac obsessed with exercising the evil on the world that was once done to him, being trapped and tortured for years.

But you have to realize, the more he becomes about keeping an enemy disabled the less he is going to be about damage. You don't ever see Braum or Amumu or Alistar putting out amazing DPS for a reason.

DrCyanide1 votes

... because they build tanky?

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Because they're tanks. Even when they build damage it's not as effective or just really clunky to use.

Kingsgrave2 votes

Veigar rework in line with what you suggested and what Riot wants for some reason

  • Passive Gains 1 AP upon killing a unit, tripled for large mons/mins and champs (no m-regen)
  • Q Applies a slow, slow scales with rank and slow on the 2nd unit is larger
  • Q has a high mana cost but refunds mana per enemy killed with it
  • W on a 3 charge system, larger radius but still long fall time, slows enemies hit
  • E denies vision for enemies inside from outside and outside from inside
  • E gives true sight in the circle, duration increased, stun reduced to 1.5 seconds at all ranks
  • R travels towards the target and explodes in an AoE upon collision with an enemy champion or pet
  • R AoE is larger if it detonates inside the cage, but R cannot be manually detonated
  • Base damages lowered, AP ratios increased, mana costs increased
LankPants5 votes

You literally just mass buffed everything on his kit. He'd be completely broken if these changes went through.

Malgana3 votes

{quoted}

Veigar rework in line with what you suggested and what Riot wants for some reason

  • Passive Gains 1 AP upon killing a unit, tripled for large mons/mins and champs (no m-regen)
  • Q Applies a slow, slow scales with rank and slow on the 2nd unit is larger
  • Q has a high mana cost but refunds mana per enemy killed with it
  • W on a 3 charge system, larger radius but still long fall time, slows enemies hit
  • E denies vision for enemies inside from outside and outside from inside
  • E gives true sight in the circle, duration increased, stun reduced to 1.5 seconds at all ranks
  • R travels towards the target and explodes in an AoE upon collision with an enemy champion or pet
  • R AoE is larger if it detonates inside the cage, but R cannot be manually detonated
  • Base damages lowered, AP ratios increased, mana costs increased

There's no need to remake his entire kit so drastically, they just need to choose what it is they actually want Veigar to do.

As it is now, his W takes so long to land that it 100% relies on the stun, but his E has been changed so that it realistically will never stun a target who doesn't want to be stunned, and Riot has stated that they want his E to be a trap rather than just a stun.

So, either his W needs to be changed to reflect this "trap" style of play, or his E needs to be reworked into a reliable but fair stun that his W can rely on.

Reazale1 votes

The yeti knows the way!. mmmm.. This guy knows what he is talking about.

MAZZ1M02 votes

An E that operates like Diana's E or Orianna's r would be good imo. If it pulls to the center (like a black hole would) you could aim your Q and W skillshots and E will pull the target into them. It'd be a great bully tool and Veigar is the ultimate bully.

50649086DEL12 votes

I think Riot is just wanting to balance the champ both in lane and in teamfights. He may have suffered a bit in lane, but when you throw in eight other champs then you have to completely reconsider the implications that his E has. Veigar is a stack building champ so he should be focusing on that, not killing the other champ solo. He isn't an assassin. In teamfights he has lots of outside factors preventing champs from just walking out of his E. They could set his E back to the way it was and take away his stacks, but I'm sure you guys don't want that.

MajorPain92 votes

They need to give his W a jayce effect. Where if cast within the confines of the cage either:

  1. Projectile speed is increased.

or

  1. Projectile size increases.

The counterplay is don't get caught in the cage that has a delayed response.

Boom veigar fixed.

Edit: Also fuck your boards riot. I put 2 and don't appreciate you trying to correct my posts with your stupid programming.

I Main Swain2 votes

I would be fine with the veigar changes if the stun hitbox on his e weren't the size of a mundo cleaver.

Abyssphere2 votes

I don't get why they didn't just remove his E and give him a different stun. Event Horizon is pretty much impossible to balance because if it's good it's way too strong and if it's bad it's utterly useless, and makes his W utterly useless. But having a stun on a basic ability is what Veigar needs and it's not something that's necessarily unhealthy on a mage - Syndra's E is a perfect example of a mage stun on a basic ability.

Remove Event Horizon and give him a stun he can rely on that isn't too powerful when it's good. Boom, Veigar has a fully functioning kit (Rather than a Q and R) again.

TheTyeGuy1 votes

I think the reason they reduced the cast time on his E was so that enemies wouldn't just walk out of the range before it appears.

Thryale1 votes

E cast time was never reduced. It was always .25 secs. They reduced the delay from .75 to .5 and made the delay start at the beginning of cast instead of after cast.

SirPacifista1 votes

jeah.. they can still do it, or dash out before it appears. Or jump over the wall (more than 18 champs can do it) or flash out... so his E still pretty useless right now (compared to his old E skill and dont tell me so its counterable, Veigar should be able to counter all ap champs, not only immobile)

TheTyeGuy1 votes

There is a point where you say to yourself though:

"Given the current changes, if I am playing as veigar, why would I use my E when I know an enemy has a dash or low cooldown blink off cooldown, and why would I cast it far enough from my enemies so they can just walk out of the range."

It seems like more of a mechanics thing then. Use it when you get an opportunity to use it, not just whenever.

Also, if an enemy blows a flash to get out of a veigar E, I'd call that worth any day.

DrCabes1 votes

most of the time they blow a flash... its to kill you also the current E isn't fast enough to defend from a champion with multiple dashes... or just one

SirPacifista1 votes

Flash for a kill, if it was worth, then it was worth for them ;D You gain nothing from their flash, you are dead, the will probably push the tower and then go roaming.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Veigars rework was a success. End of Discussion. Downvote the truth all you want. If you find him difficult or weak, then you are playing him incorrectly.

SirPacifista1 votes

Must be that Mister Bronze 2, but what you dont understand is that nearly every lol player would play Veigar "good" in your devision. I dont want to offend you, but you shouldnt shout such nonsense, if you have NOTHING to underpin it. And no, Bronze 1 wont make such a difference.

Edit: But cute try.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Ok? I'm Bronze Two. At least I wont have to buy my account or let someone boost it for me. By the end of this year you can look me up and I'll be in Silver or maybe gold. It doesnt matter how long it takes all that matters is that I am not going to cheat. I barely see Veigar. (I have never seen him in ranked.) I just didnt. Think you handicaps could find sarcasm that challenging

SirPacifista1 votes

I quote you :

You obviously think that this is my only account.

I dont care if you are boosted or arent, you dont have Veigar in yourmatch history and as you said never played against him. So why do you write his rework is fine if you cant play with him?

Bolwinkel2 votes

I don't feel like you are allowed to say that when you haven't even played Veigar in this season. Let alone you only played him once last season. Also he didn't get a rework, he was "compensated" for the removal of DFG. However please explain why you believe his "rework" was a success. Or don't comment something that you believe and not give any evidence over it.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

You obviously think that this is my only account. Before you start trying to invalidate someones argument how about you look some....ya know...sarcasm. I mean the Gd is home of sarcasm. Just thought people knew how to read sarcasm...

Bolwinkel2 votes

That's what italics or quotation marks are for. You can't read sarcasm from one comment unless it's in italics or in quotation marks.

Katariken1 votes

Agree absolutely. I think that he needs more "interactions" with his skills. A personal example?

W applies a little area slow (15/20%) BUT if the target is already Stunned by E, it extend the stun for 0.5/1 seconds.

It's a personal example, don't blame me if he's op...I'm not in the balance team XD

Bolwinkel1 votes

You: (Your idea about veigar here) Riot Balance Team: "Hey lets "compensate" him more guys!

ShieldWriter061 votes

RITO LISTEN TO THIS THREADVeigar item 3070

air tiger1 votes

This may seem weird, but I thought of an alternative version of E that could be viable in game AND stands up to the definition of Event Horizon.

From Wikipedia "In general relativity, an event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer. In layman's terms, it is defined as "the point of no return", i.e., the point at which the gravitational pull becomes so great as to make escape impossible. An event horizon is most commonly associated with black holes. Light emitted from beyond the event horizon can never reach the outside observer. Likewise, any object approaching the horizon from the observer's side appears to slow down and never quite pass through the horizon, with its image becoming more and more redshifted as time elapses. The traveling object, however, experiences no strange effects and does, in fact, pass through the horizon in a finite amount of proper time. From here to the central singularity will take 0.0001 seconds in proper time, in free fall, for a 30 solar mass black hole. This infall time is proportional to the mass of the black hole"

So I propose the following.

E - Event Horizon Instant cast (again). If an enemy champion touches the outside boundary, they are stunned (as per old Veigar). Veigar loses vision of the area inside of the Event Horizon (since any light produced inside can never reach an outside observer).

It may seem counter-intuitive to reinstate a delay-less E, but having Veigar lose vision of everything inside seems to be effective punishment. It's just an idea that came to me randomly while reading one of the million threads about poor Veigar, and it could be completely terrible or it could be proper. Cheers! (I miss you Veigar <3)

Lord Malice1 votes

Ooooh I like this theme, how about instead of a wall that appears to stun/ "Trap" them, a black hole appears at target point and the closer the enemy champ is to it the slower they move or maybe they get sucked back in like Viktor's enhanced gravity trap. And if it affected all targets, friend or foe, or minion or monster, that would give it nice balance.

DrCabes2 votes

I posted a idea that is similar to this a few days ago but instead of Veigar not seeing inside the cage the other team doesn't see inside the cage.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5N0ipt7E-veigar-event-horizon-idea-based-on-what-a-real-even-horizon-is

air tiger1 votes

Thematically speaking, you're right. The enemy shouldn't be able to see him if they are outside observers. Now I think no one outside should be able to see the trapped, and I'm questioning whether or not the inside observer would be able to see outside.

King Mugiwara1 votes

Im sorry have to disagree, I am having no problems with Veigers gameplay with his new kit. For me after I got better used/equipped with him hes pretty good. He got improved in certain areas and denounced in an other.

DrCabes2 votes

His entire offensive ability is 100% based on whether or not your team can force the other team to run into your wall. It doesn't matter if Veigar can farm more easily if he can't land a spell.

Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votes

The old Veigar E need to change in someway but I think only think Riot did was make it easy for a champ like Ahri to blow him up

Virgin Ray1 votes

What about if you stay in the center of the stun for 3 seconds you get silenced?

CoolKnightST1 votes

What if whe give champions the fear status when they are inside his E for longer than 1.5 seconds? The fear will last another 1.5 seconds. That opening could allow him to hit his W

Aevo 551 votes

I honestly dont see what everybody is complaining about. I cant speak for higher ranks, but I'm matched with high silver/low gold every game and I find veigar to be really strong right now. Who cares if his stun isn't freelo anymore? Now its like an actual skillshot that you have to predict movement for. Shocking...

DrCabes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aevo 55,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d66kutl4,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2015-04-11T15:50:49.007+0000)

predict movement for.

You mean assuming they don't just turn around when they see the glowing lights... Whether or not Veigar's stun lands is entirely dependent on your team making it land or a opponent not competent enough to notice giant lights appearing on the ground.

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