Shouldn't Fiora's Q cd refresh be based off of vitals, not simply hits?

DrCabes·Feb 4, 2016·160 votes·4,217 views

Just a question, I don't really hate Fiora as a champ, but damn do I find it annoying and difficult to lane against that Q spam.

87 Comments

Cowgirl EdFeb 4, 201612 votes

lots of people suggested that, but than how do you LCS BIG PLAYZ without a shorter cd? eh, gotta think about money too bro

MaizieaFeb 4, 20164 votes

But LCS players are so good, they can make it work if it's just from vitals, it'll just greatly affect those bronze and silver players, and above that they should be able to make it work, it'd be a nerf but they can make it work. And I think this really fits her story way better.

FortisDominusFeb 5, 20161 votes

if silver and bronze players play her, the lane will be a stomp, because i dont believe they will be able to play her effectively enough. Really only higher elos are complaining about fiora for the most part

Krys StarFeb 4, 20169 votes

I think it should be 60% on champions only. 30% or 0% on minions. If it applied to proccing vitals only, it'd really hurt her dueling and power. Which isn't bad, that her success should come from proccing vitals, but it shouldn't depend on it solely either.

skullzx7Feb 4, 20166 votes

It could be 30% on everything baseline, doubled if you hit an enemy vital. That would still provide cdr for dueling while still putting emphasis on her hitting vitals and separating good fioras from bad ones

FortisDominusFeb 4, 20169 votes

Her Q does not do alot of damage unless it hits a vital. So before you walk out into lane keep trying to reset the vital spot so that way its behind you (or really close to behind you). Thats how i deal with fiora lanes because unless her Q hits a vital it does not do alot of damage. If she tries to go in for trades like that, and does not hit a vital, you will out trade her with most top laners.

LordGeovanniFeb 4, 201614 votes

fioras q does a large amount of damage but they are strong because they can be used in the middle of auto attacks and reset timer while providing mobility

SpoofghoulFeb 4, 20162 votes

pretty much this the q alone doesnt deal huge damage but you can reset your auto attack time in the middle of your auto attack animation as soon as it applies damage allowing you to auto attack again instantly.

so you can do aaQaa real quick

then there is the insane mobility it provides

Dar RaksadaFeb 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

fioras q does a large amount of damage but they are strong because they can be used in the middle of auto attacks and reset timer while providing mobility

Interesting. I never knee her q reset her aa, always thought it was just her e that did that.

What if they removed q's aa reset instead of messing with the cd?

Lady HammerlockFeb 4, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WOAuo1bW,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-02-04T09:34:49.643+0000)

Interesting. I never knee her q reset her aa, always thought it was just her e that did that.

What if they removed q's aa reset instead of messing with the cd?

whats beautifully(broken) is she can AA>E>AA>Q>AA>any kind of hydra>AA and if Q is up again you can >Q>AA

for a total of 4 aa resets

SaiannaFeb 4, 20162 votes

this smells like Riven. I hate that smell.

Dar RaksadaFeb 4, 20163 votes

{quoted}

whats beautifully(broken) is she can AA>E>AA>Q>AA>any kind of hydra>AA and if Q is up again you can >Q>AA

for a total of 4 aa resets

wouldn't removing the reset on her q 'fix' that? Having fewer aa resets might make the current 'juggernaut' build weaker on her, encouraging her to build more damage.

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

Q isn't REALLY an AA reset like jax W, but rather: Q funtions like an auto (applies on-hits etc) but is a spell that cancels the auto animation. Fiora Q is an auto-reset in the same sense that Ezreal Q is.

FortisDominusFeb 4, 20165 votes

I dont know, I dont believe fiora just walks into lane and shits on the enemy laner effortlessly the way everyone on the boards says she does. You cant really say "fiora is op, when she gets a few kills she just becomes unstoppable". Well, so does most bruiser top laners that get a few kills. Dont misunderstand though, I dont play fiora, i just dont think she is as broken as the boards make her out to be because any annoying champion that becomes slightly strong get turned on by the boards. Then you see constant threads about "nerf _____ champion, for ______(ignorant) reason.

Auz the RipperFeb 4, 20168 votes

Lot of the complaints are because she's obnoxious and oppressive more than because she's OP

FortisDominusFeb 5, 20161 votes

Obnoxious i can agree with. Oppressive? not really. Fiora is supposed to be weaker early game (and in my experience she is) and scales well into mid and late game when she starts getting items. Strong early game champions at top lane can ruin her day. Renekton Darius Rengar Riven Lissandra Quinn <---------------------- these champions can all give her a hard time early game before she hits her mid to late game powerspike

Teemo Darius Ryze are much more oppressive than Fiora

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

Fiora herself is weak early, yes.

Fiora with Grasp of the Undying s VERY STRONG early and then Fiora scalings kick in and she stays strong all game.

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

Fiora alone doesn't just walk up and shit on you.

Fiora with Grasp of the Undying just walks up and shits on you. And then she never stops shitting on you because she went Titanic, Cleaver, Steraks

FortisDominusFeb 5, 20161 votes

lol. ok grasp of the undying is becoming a problem at top lane in general

NarasimhaFeb 4, 20164 votes

That's... actually pretty much the same as pre-rework

AA -> Q -> AA -> Q -> E -> AA -> Hydra -> AA

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

I think you meant AA-E-AA-Q-AA-HYDRA-AA-Q-AA

You used to pop E early for the mini-phage/furor proc

NarasimhaFeb 5, 20161 votes

Thats only if you were already in range. Most of the time, you had to Q to get there in the first place.

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

I often would use the first auto on a creep to speed boost in and give me 2 gap closers in case they flashed

Old Man TeetoFeb 6, 20161 votes

wow, never seen it done but that just seems painful

IntakiNineFeb 4, 20161 votes

Fiora's Q at max rank does less damage than an auto attack.

KillerKellFeb 4, 20161 votes

But it resets your AA, allowing you to get your Autos off more often, so even as the Q itself does less damage you get more overall damage in your chain with it.

IntakiNineFeb 5, 20161 votes

True, but irrelevant. I was addressing a comment that asserted her Q did a high amount of damage; this is false.

48983507DEL1Feb 5, 20161 votes

Except you still can't hit abilities on her because of Riposte, that will deal damage and slow your attack speed even if it misses. Oh also, her Q gets a ridiculously short CD if she hit's a champion, meaning she can use it again very quickly despite not hitting a vital.

Fiora's biggest problem is how ridiculously fucking safe she is. There's almost no way to punish her because she isn't naturally punished for missing skills. Her Q is an auto-targeted dash with an insanely low cooldown if she uses it aggressively, her W is always useful even if it doesn't fulfill it's main purpose, and her vitals means she's impossible to itemize against. She has next to no weaknesses besides MAYBE attack speed slows, but even those don't do much considering most of her damage comes from procing vitals with her Q.

Oh she also has very low mana costs. Totally balanced champion.

HoukagoFapTimeFeb 4, 20166 votes

Or at least champion hits, instead minions,monsters,etc...

OrangesilkFeb 4, 20163 votes

Now this is a sensible, smart idea that drains unintended power from her without changing her base gameplay. I swear these americans just love complaining about Fiora.

Gregor GysiFeb 4, 201611 votes

{quoted}

that drains unintended power from her without changing her base gameplay.

It's obviously intended that it refreshes on minions hit. And changing that would indeed change her base gameplay.

{quoted}

I swear these americans just love complaining about Fiora.

Wut.

KillerKellFeb 5, 20161 votes

Other Regions aren't complaining about Fiora... because other Regions are actually doing very well against Fiora (like the LPL, having Foria at about a 24% Win Rate, and EU having Fiora at a 44% Win Rate).

Until Huni took Quin Top Lane into Fiora, she had a 100% Win Rate in NA. The two Fiora Losses so far were (1) Huni beating Fiora with Quinn and (2) Huni making a fateful teleport as Fiora to follow into a dumb fight instead of Free Pushing Bot for the Win... a game where his Fiora was very strong and had finally out-classed the Poppy.

So in the NA, Fiora's 2 Losses were a Bad Decision by a Strong Fiora in which she should have Won and then a Beat Down by a nice Counter Pick and proper Jungle Ganks.

In NA, we've largely played against Fiora completely wrong, so she's been nigh-unstoppable in the NALCS. Which is why the NA Boards are all aflame with "OP Fiora" while other Regions aren't complaining about her because they don't see her as OP.

Gregor GysiFeb 5, 20162 votes

"Regions" can't complain. I think the main reason why Orangesilk got downvoted is because he had to go and summon the anti NA circlejerk. Also, I can't say that I've seen NA players complain more about Fiora than EU/rest do considering that most people on the boards are NA anyways.

That being said I do wonder why you don't mention the high ban-/pickrate (that means that she is considered strong amongst all regions) and the 60+% winrate in LCK - do "the koreans" suck aswell? Not to mention that Fiora is usually up against Poppy who is extremely strong herself.

iamleburkFeb 5, 20161 votes

Well NA has also yet to adopt the farm heavy style that is actually meta right now. They still play aggro as fuck, which is fun to watch, but could also explain why Fiora is so good right now.

Thund3r Ang3lFeb 4, 20164 votes

Remove the grasp proc from the Q?

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

PLEAAAAAASE

bobsenbobFeb 4, 20163 votes

how about 30% reduction if it hits a unit, but the reduction is doubled if it hits a vital?

LoLYaHoOFeb 4, 20162 votes

Just pick Trundle, then come on boards and watch fiora players QQ about trundle OP

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

That used to work before the rework. Now Fiora just punishes you for having HP

AninLegions777Feb 4, 20162 votes

I think this is a healthy change to her Q. Right now is just Q, reset, Q, Reset, until she kills the enemy. It should have a requirement other than hitting a target. Just imagine if this was how Irelia's Q what designed.

Serika ZeroFeb 4, 20163 votes

Making her an even higher skill cap champion than she already is will mean she will be a pain in the ass to balance.

So, if she will ever get a small compensation buff. She will dominate pro play, while having ~48% or less win rate in soloq And any small nerfs will cause her to become ignored in pro play and her win rate in soloQ to drop to 42% or so.

Similar to Azir, or Lee Sin and others. Since the R Lee buff, there's a lot of lees in LCS. Yet his win rate is still awful in soloq. Similar to Azir. The moment he was slightly viable, every pro team had to either play him or ban. And after all the nerfs, he is now sitting in trash tier.

That's the problem with making heroes very mechanically intensive. Its stupid and it hurts the balance team to the point that those champions will either be OP or Trash tier.

AninLegions777Feb 4, 20163 votes

Fiora's skill cap isn't as high as Azir's or Lee's. Yes you have to hit vitals and that takes knowing how to position but still that's pretty much the only mechanic, except knowing how to use W. I don't care about pro play tbh. Most of the matches are boring af now. I only care about solo queue. The nerf that OP was talking about is a good one. Of course they will reduce the normal CD or Q to compensate but just enough to let it still be a nerf.

Serika ZeroFeb 4, 20162 votes

Fiora right now has a high skill cap. Not as High as Azir or Lee, true. Changing her Q to only be refreshed when hitting vitals, it will increase the skill cap to the Azir/Lee's level.

That's the problem with the suggestion. The good Fioras will be just as good as now. The bad Fioras and average ones will be worse than ever.

They can just nerf her numbers. Right now she's not that problematic to balance. But again, if the OPs change goes though, she will become a pain in the ass to balance due to "skills".

AninLegions777Feb 4, 20163 votes

Lool. I won't comment on skill cap anymore.

Mate, this is the same with Average Lees and Zeds. The good ones are good and the average ones are meh. It won't reduce their playrate at all. I prefer good Fioras that actually deserve to kill me instead of someone who just presses Q all the time in lane while I watch my HP bar disappear.

Spaceman5pffFeb 5, 20161 votes

But a good Fiora just takes Grasp of the Undying and presses Q every 4 seconds / On CD and wins lane.

AninLegions777Feb 5, 20161 votes

Exactly! The only difference is that a bad one takes Thunderlords and just waits till 6 to dance around your vitals.

DªyFeb 4, 20162 votes

makes so much sense

she has a crazy amount of utility right now as well as maneuverability it should be a reward to proc a vital and get a cd lower not to just spam Q against minions and champs without much thought

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 5, 20162 votes

Id rather it have an actual mana cost attached to it. As she sits now she might as well be manaless.

Weiner the PoohFeb 4, 20161 votes

None of you idiots upvoting this shitty thread realize how badly this would fuck up Fiora, her mobility would be super conditional and hard to do. None of you have even played her, you just assume it's easy to proc every vital because you hate her.

My Waifu VanillaFeb 4, 20162 votes

Except she is arguably the most mobile champion in the game right now when she ults. Infinite dashes and 2 ms boosts means you are never getting away from her if she clicks R on you which is a problem in my opinion.