Veigar - The Counter Mage.... That Get's Countered By Every Mage.....

DrCabes·Apr 14, 2015·109 votes·6,606 views

Two primary types of AP champions, assassins and poke. Right now Veigar gets beat by both and his only counter against them is that he can ult them late-game for nearly all of their hp. Assassins like Leblanc Ahri can 100% Veigar pre-6 while he has to wait to 100% them until 20-30 minutes into the game, and that's only if they run into his stun. Poke champions like Xerath and Ziggs are the same. They can poke him and Veigar cant poke back. he can only 100% them if they are way out of position and it's late game.

I think it's time Veigar lost the "counter mage" identity considering he doesn't even fulfill it right now.

Edit:

The reason for this post is because of every post regarding a change to his ultimate. They all get down-voted and receive negative comments because it would remove his identity as a "counter-mage", which was already removed from him. I'm not saying his ult needs to be changed. I'm just saying the argument of him still being a counter-mage doesn't hold.

153 Comments

AlljoyApr 14, 201558 votes

Hey, Veigar's pretty good okay?

.. for a caster minion that is.

10TicklerApr 14, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Hey, Veigar's pretty good okay?

.. for a caster minion that is.

http://i.imgur.com/a9A6vI9.gif

BeerOfRoot4843Apr 14, 201517 votes

At least caster minions can't miss their shit.

TrídentApr 15, 20153 votes

Best caster minion NA. Wait no. Castor's Father is a better caster minion. https://youtu.be/7p1UolwzD04?t=2m20s

BlancmarkApr 15, 20155 votes

Veigar IS THAT A SHORT-....never mind.... item 3070

AlljoyApr 15, 20151 votes

No, but you know what is?

You.

BlancmarkApr 15, 20157 votes

Veigar Prepare to meet your dooooooommm!

.....would you kindly stand still for a bit? Excellent....

AlljoyApr 15, 20152 votes

Would you like me to fetch you a stool or something?

DrCyanideApr 14, 201521 votes

I'm trying to think of another mage with only one damage ability besides their ultimate, who's ultimate is on a comparable cooldown to Veigar's, and I'm failing. Can anyone else help me out? I'm sure we can think of someone before his W hits...

JevelFaithfulApr 14, 20153 votes

Is it Q or meteor that's the damage ability?

DrCyanideApr 14, 201518 votes

Q is the damage ability. Sadly, the only way Meteor can land is if the person has worse ping than the East Coast can provide.

Rew711Apr 14, 20156 votes

Veigar main here (my main mid man), I don't use the W on champions, but the minions. Somehow, that's how I also hit champions a lot of the time.

Champion SkinApr 15, 20152 votes

Minion block OP?

not a starburstApr 15, 20152 votes

That or someone's just not paying any attention. Usually it's the ADC on your team that wanders straight into the enemy mage.

Lord Graves IIIApr 15, 20152 votes

A veigar rock is sort of like an old nidalee spear. You could dodge 9 out of 10. But the one that gets you takes half your health and ruins your day.

Loken StoneheartApr 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XA1JE0T2,comment-id=0004000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-15T20:02:12.103+0000)

A veigar rock is sort of like an old nidalee spear. You could dodge 9 out of 10. But the one that gets you takes half your health and ruins your day.

A Veigar rock is like a Nidalee spear. A Nidalee spear in a world where Nidalee is balanced because she has to stand still for 1/2 a second to throw her spear, and then it took another second and a half to land, giving a warning of exactly where its going the whole time, and it only hits the exact point the spear was thrown at and nothing along the way.

Also, Veigar rock does less damage than an AP Nid spear. In fact, Veigar's ultimate only has 50 more base damage than a level 9 Nidalee spear (if somehow Veigar got to rank 3 ult at level 9), and has 20% less AP scaling. Oh, and nevermind the fact that she can through somewhere in the range of 20-40 of them in the time it takes Veigar to get his ult back.

Nidalee is a better burst mage than Veigar. All around. That should say something.

junglerboy16Apr 15, 20152 votes

When you get a client crash on top of an ISP crash on top of Veigar's stun going down before all that happens, then W has a 50/50 chance of success.

Ariel the CruelApr 15, 20152 votes

I've been running at 300-400 ping the last few days. Gotten a few spikes in the 500 range.

Can still dodge it. And Xerath. And Vel'Koz. Those 2 year warnings are a god-send. XD

(In related news: Azir's anti-Zed combos are hard. But still doable.)

RrettApr 14, 20157 votes

he just is not balanced for his current play style. Completely balanced around his E and it's gone now, which also nulls his W. He only has 2 reliable spells right now. The others are best just not leveled up.

PartholonianApr 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm trying to think of another mage with only one damage ability besides their ultimate, who's ultimate is on a comparable cooldown to Veigar's, and I'm failing. Can anyone else help me out? I'm sure we can think of someone before his W hits...

Zilean Maybe you just need more time to think about it?

NilokApr 14, 20158 votes

I have a gut feeling that we will have to wait until LCS is over for any productive buffs.

Very Hard EngageApr 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I have a gut feeling that we will have to wait until LCS is over for any productive buffs.

they didn't focus on him at all in 5.7, its going to be at least another year of other champion reworks before we see veigar changes again.

NilokApr 14, 20156 votes

Probably true, but I expect no productive changes for any champion until LCS is over, so the earliest people can hope is May.

SEKAIApr 14, 20158 votes

Just like today's bruisers, who were supposed to counter squishies with their in your face style of engage, now gets kited and countered by almost everything that is classified as "ranged". Cinderhulk is a life saver though.

Or how Garen was supposed to beat around cast based champs like nothing from the get go, now he is currently struggling to win trades against warrior minion 1v1.

Or how Olaf was made as anti cc diver, yet got shoved into the trash bin because well.

Or how Morde was the melee mage hypercarry with a rocky early game, and now he is a tank with no mobility, cc, damage and sustain.

Or Urgod, who was meant to be anti adc, and for the longest time he was that guy who lost trades to caster minions.

Or Sona, who was the jack of all trades yet master of none support, then Riot wanted her to be the trash of all trades and useless in all support.

...

Then let's look at champs who clearly got way more than they deserve.

HailFire DragonApr 14, 201513 votes

.......urgot was picked in LCS.....and won the fight.....

im not sure i should believe your opinions as fact.....

SEKAIApr 14, 20154 votes

Hence why my point on Urgot was entirely written in past tense.

EDIT: Well I picked up one error and fixed it, anyway.

SaiannaApr 15, 20152 votes

Once? Twice? How many times was picked Zed or any other "cool champion"?

BeerOfRoot4843Apr 14, 20158 votes

This is exactly where they want him to be. Let's gut the one ability that made you useful. That's what you get for being in the LCS.

Vayne MechanicsApr 14, 20157 votes

He is not a counter mage. Kassadin is a counter mage. Veigar's niche is precisely what you're complaining about... If you don't like it, pick a different champ.

SirPacifistaApr 14, 20159 votes

Wut? Someone seems quite pissed here, and only because you dont like Veigar ;D (you dont have a single game as Veigar, 95% Vayne) And how was/is Veigar not the counter Mage? (pssst... the ult is scaling ON the enemys AP.... and mostly mages are using ap items!!)

ANd for gots sake

If you don't like it, pick a different champ.

could it be that you are a butthurt asshole? You arent contributing this discussion, your whole argument is "Pick another champ if you didnt like him like he is now after the patch".

And i think people will agree with me when i say you are butthurt, since you never played Veigar, but you probably got killed quite often from the old one.

EDIT: You know what? lets change Vaynes W from True damage to physical, and let it stop scaling from the enemys HP. And if you then complain we would all say :

"If you don't like it, pick a different champ."

I would really hope that this will happen to you °(^_^)°

insaiyanbaccaApr 14, 20151 votes

he does have a valid point with veig not being the dedicated counter-mage not saying he went about it right but it is still valid, veig's niche is and was to be a late game magic damage dealing terror while the ult that scales 80% off of enemy's ap is very anti-mage it doesnt mean the entire champ is an anti-mage for example kass he has a magic damage shield an ability that charges up based on enemies using abilities near him and a blink to get to the mage quickly. idk i may not know much here but these are just my thoughts here

DrCabesApr 14, 20153 votes

The reason I made this post is because of every post suggesting a change to his ult. They all get a lot of down votes and negative comments because it would hurt Veigar's "anti-mage" identity... which he doesn't even have

SirPacifistaApr 15, 20151 votes

I think our point right now is not to change his R or Q, but giving Veigar some kind of reliable stun or AT LEAST a reliable W. Veigar was meant to kill nealy every ap mage (as long as they arent too tanky, like ryze), but i think most people will agree with me ehen i say that Veigar needs his old E back, for him to become reliable. No good player will get stunned by his E anymore, so his W wont hit for sure anymore. This means that Veigar is not entirly rewarding you of playing good, but rather rewards you for the enemy to make mistakes. His whole concept only works if the enemy is playing bad. And if he has 1 MR or HP item you can not kill him easily AND you will lose every 1 vs 1. They WILL Flash out of the E if necessary (if, many champions can blink out, or dash out before it activates) to get the kill on Veigar, and he cant escape like LeBlanc, Ahri or Zed. (just some examples ("please dont rage because i meantioned a champion you play"))

Veigar should be rewarding for playing good and NOT depend on the enemy making mistakes.

insaiyanbaccaApr 15, 20152 votes

well i know for a fact riotbly the bestnt veigar to get his old e, so probably the best bet here will be a buff to his w.(and dont worry i dolnt take offense even if i did play those champs but i get why you would say that)

SirPacifistaApr 18, 20151 votes

Thank you for understanding my point

i wrote

("please dont rage because i meantioned a champion you play")

not because of you, but because MANY people are going crazy if someone says that THEIR champion are good (because they fear that i would mean that they should get nerfed)

i never tried to offend you, if i did im sorry ;D

insaiyanbaccaApr 18, 20151 votes

yeah its no big deal i know what people on the boards can be like, an wow my spelling was horrible in that post, i dont even know wtf i was trying to say lol

SinlaireApr 14, 20154 votes

I've played with and against about 6-7 veigars since his "buffs" and i dont think i've seen a single one of them win their lane before it entered roaming phase.

not. a. single. one.

all of them got stomped by ahri, kat, xerath, ziggs, cass, kass, yasuo, zed....

i could go on but the list is starting to hurt and i dont even play veigar.

RrettApr 14, 20151 votes

My friend is actually doing pretty decent with the current veigar at high plat.

I still think veigars shit though and I'm a better veigar player than him. He's the only dedicated veigar I know of that still bothers with that absolutely shitty champion.

Lord Graves IIIApr 15, 20151 votes

is this bait? I think this is bait.

RrettApr 15, 20151 votes

no, take a look at curling veigar. He's only played veigar in ranked and he's high plat.

I constantly have pointless arguments with him and he says you can still win with veigar and climb, but the winrate still isn't that good and he's balanced around 2 spells right now anyways.

He keeps trying to get me to play veigar and I always am like, nop.

Lord Graves IIIApr 16, 20151 votes

If you don't like veigar, why on earth did you come post in a veigar thread?

RrettApr 16, 20151 votes

because I own every veigar skin and I used to play veigar only.

I still very much want my favorite champ to have a come back and to be fun to play again, but with only 2 spells he's pretty not-fun.

Lord Graves IIIApr 18, 20151 votes

So you stopped playing him because of beta and season 1 changes, kept up with all the skin releases, then appeared to support the Anti-mage Veigar position?

Alright. Im on board with this. :D

What changes do you propose within the given design perimeters of current League of Legends.

Also, I'm still not convinced that Anti-Mage is a crucial part of his theme and identity, but what do you got?

RrettApr 19, 20151 votes

I haven't played since beta, but for around 1-2 years I played veigar only, and I stopped playing the game when dfg removal happened in wait of a compensation. It may not be for the longest of times but 1-2 years is still a good amount.

Let's clarify my thoughts on him being an anti-mage. Firstly let me say, I don't understand why people consider him to be one. He's an anti-anyone who builds flat Ap with no utility champion if anything. So people like leblanc was what veigars ult was truely good against.

Now here's why I don't think he should be an antimage or even considered one. There are a lot of champions who are played mid who are AD or don't really build that much AP. It's actually to the point you don't even consider the bonus damage from enemy AP, it's just too inconsistent, and if something is too inconsistent you just don't add it to the 'plan'.

Referring back to pre dfg removal, the general rule was, if you didn't have a decent amount of health and/or MR, veigar would instantly kill you. It didn't matter if you were Zed, khaz, leblanc, ezreal, caitlyn, oriana, syndra, or wh ever, without health and/or mr you were going to die or you were going to live.

From all my experiences I've never once noticed the bonus enemy ap damage really mattering. I've played veigar at a fairly high level for a couple of years and I've never considered tabulating the enemy AP as damage.

I never looked at the enemy AP and tried to figure out if it'd kill them. I never considered him an anti mage, I considered him an anti-anyone with low hp/mr, because that's what he was. He was a nuker, no reason to attach anti-mage because he was just as good against the AD casters.

Now what are my proposed changes? I've thought about it a couple of times on how to make him more fun with his current skill set, but I haven't really thought about a real rework.

His passive needs to be changes. As it is it sucks, and I've never liked it. It gives you much less than you think when you consider his overall mana costs. Useless passive.

His E needs a rework just flat out. Just keeping it as a cage I would add augmentations to his pre existing skills.

When his Q passes through the walls they penetrate all targets within, and maybe gets a jayce treatment in that it speeds up, and gets bigger with more damage till it hits the other side of the cage and disappears. This would fix the issue where people can just kill you in return if you trap them inside for them to 'dance' around.

When you use his W inside the box, drop time is instant, maybe more damage.

R change, I'd like to have the enemy AP scaling removed, it was always a stupid mechanic, and then increase it's scaling up to 130%, then have it do 150% when hitting an enemy in the box.

Lord Graves IIIApr 19, 20151 votes

I've literally lost my response to you twice to accidentally backing the page when I meant to open a new tabbed. Thats frustrating. I've spend the last half an hour typing responses to your post that will never see the light of day. Its late. I should sleep.

This space reserved for when my will to debate comes back. You had a great post and cool ideas, I have feed back and a few counterarguments....when I feel like typing them ......again.

largefishApr 14, 20153 votes

I've had to take veigar top instead of mid now because of how weak he is to any sort of mage or assassin

Curling VeigarApr 15, 20153 votes

It's time a red talks about Veigar again anyways.

Silents429Apr 14, 20152 votes

Were in the middle of a meta shift, wait until the dust settles before they change him up further, they said they aren't done with him.

Lord Graves IIIApr 15, 20152 votes

Solid points, but my counter argument is as follows,

Veigar's identity is not an antimage.
Veigar's identity is as a growing threat in the form of a mage.

Veigar has one of the worst early games in League of Legends. He just does. Period. Even characters wtih "bad" early games (like vayne for instance) can whup his ass like a red headed stepchild early game.

Veigar's fantasy is that growth in power, as every minion you Q feeds your growing AP, until you eventually have something over 600 or so and can smash over half of a fighter's health bar with one meteor.

I do not believe veigar's ultimate has an enemy AP ratio to make him an anti-mage.
I'd argue that Veigar's ultimate's special ratio is designed to give Veigar a niche strength. The idea is that late game, no matter how badly veigar does, he will still turn whatever mage spent the early game stomping his ass into paste. No matter how fed Malzahar, or Orianna, or Brand got beating your sorry blue ass black and blue you will still be able to splat them late game. Your lane opponent (provided they are a mage. Still the most common mid pick) will eventually fall before you.

The idea is that if veigar does well, his growth feeds into him murdering everyone. If he really doesn't bounce back though, at least he can kill the mage he likely laned against.

Loken StoneheartApr 15, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XA1JE0T2,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2015-04-15T08:49:07.878+0000)

Solid points, but my counter argument is as follows,

Veigar's identity is not an antimage.

Veigar's identity is as a growing threat in the form of a mage.

Veigar has one of the worst early games in League of Legends. He just does. Period. Even characters wtih "bad" early games (like vayne for instance) can whup his ass like a red headed stepchild early game.

Veigar's fantasy is that growth in power, as every minion you Q feeds your growing AP, until you eventually have something over 600 or so and can smash over half of a fighter's health bar with one meteor.

I do not believe veigar's ultimate has an enemy AP ratio to make him an anti-mage.

I'd argue that Veigar's ultimate's special ratio is designed to give Veigar a niche strength. The idea is that late game, no matter how badly veigar does, he will still turn whatever mage spent the early game stomping his ass into paste. No matter how fed Malzahar, or Orianna, or Brand got beating your sorry blue ass black and blue you will still be able to splat them late game. Your lane opponent (provided they are a mage. Still the most common mid pick) will eventually fall before you.

The idea is that if veigar does well, his growth feeds into him murdering everyone. If he really doesn't bounce back though, at least he can kill the mage he likely laned against.

As well thought out as this post is, you clearly didn't know him before his rework. Or really in the past at all.

His power fantasy was THE anti-mage burst-mage. His Q stacking minigame, to my knowledge, has actually never been particularly used by players who are good at him. They've always used his Q to harass so that come level 6 they can instantly kill the enemy and get snowballing.

Look at his release kit, please. Realize that he was definitely intended to be the game's anti-mage.

Entropy (Passive) - Veigar's attacks steal 5 Ability Power per strike for 8 seconds. This effect stacks.

Baleful Strike - Unleashes dark energy at target enemy dealing Magic Damage. If a unit is killed, Veigar gains 1 Ability Power for a minion or 5 Ability Power for a champion.

Dark Matter - After 2 seconds, dark matter falls from the sky to the target location, dealing Magic Damage.

Event Horizon - Veigar twists the edges of space around the target location for 3 seconds, stunning enemies who pass through the perimeter for a short duration.

Primordial Burst (Ultimate) - Blasts target enemy champion, dealing Magic Damage plus 25% of the target's maximum Mana. If Primordial Burst deals a killing blow, Veigar regains Mana.

He stole AP and did damage based on the target's mana. The next ability rework:

Entropy REMAKE Auto attacks lower the target's ability power by 25% (non-stacking).

He lowered the opponent's AP by 25%. Clearly antimage.

Next up!:

Entropy REMAKE Veigar steals 20% of each nearby champion's ability power. The amount stolen per target cannot exceed five times Veigar's level.

That seems pretty antimage to me. Passively stealing 20% of everybody's AP.

Eventually they changed it to the current equilibrium. That same patch, to maintain his anti-mage identity, they changed his ult to 80% of the enemy's AP and his AP combined. Next patch, it was 1.0 of both of their AP's. Next, it is what it was until the rework, 80% of theirs, and 120% of his.

He is very, very clearly, historically an anti-mage that is meant to burst them to death. That was and should be his entire thing. He was never intended to be this Q-stacking thing. That was just a bonus when farming after you blew up the enemy champion (why do you think killing them also rewards 1/2/3/4/5 AP?)

Looking into the past gives you a good feeling of what the champion was intended to be. Riot just changed their minds a few patches ago because he was being played as support and they just won't have that, now will they?

(Also, just a side-note, his meteor doesn't take 50% of anyone's HP away right now, its impossible to land just like his E is)