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7.14 Juggernaut Changes

Big Lincoln··9 votes·1,533 views

Chogath Garen Singed Udyr Yorick are all being changed for patch 7.14, mostly/entirely buffs it seems

Yorick

"Passive Ghouls now immediately attack upon landing with E. Ghoul damage adjusted to 10~90 -> 2-100 Radius that ghouls react to E: 1000 -> 1400

R CD: 160/150/140 -> 160/130/100 HP: 700/1500/3000 -> 700/1500/4000

Yorick has a really early-mid focused power curve, which will always be true to some extent but trying to make it less so. At the same time he does much better in low elo compared to high elo. The goal is to keep his early game in high elo similar, while nerfing it in low. With the changes if you hit E, you are guaranteed at least one hit from the ghouls, but their dps will be lower early R cd probably needs no explaning, and hp is there since Maiden has 0 resists and could stand to be a bit more tanky lategame."

https://www.reddit.com/r/yorickmains/comments/6jnoco/changes_in_testing_for_314/

Udyr

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDTVf2LUIAA8xJf.jpg

Garen

Perseverance (P) - **Several changes - values now only change once at level 11 rather than at 11 and 16. Values switched around and a new effect added increasing healing if Garen is below X% health. **

Time require for passive to trigger changed. LIVE: 9/6//4 seconds at levels 1/11/16. PBE: 9 seconds at level 1-10 and lowers to 3 seconds at level 11. Healing value changed. LIVE: 2/4/10% at levels 1/11/16. PBE: 2% at level 1-10 and increases to 8% at level 11.

Courage (W) Cooldown lowered from 24/23/22/21/20 to 20/18.5/17/15.5/14 Active damage reduction changed from 30% at all ranks to 30/35/40/45/50% Active duration changed from 2/3/4/5/6 to 3 at all ranks

Singed [large set of changes, hold tight!] Base health increased from 542.76 to 610 Health growth increased from 82 to 90

Poison Trail (Q): AP ratio increased from 30% to 40% Damage changed from 22/34/46/58/70 to 20/30/40/50/60

Mega Adhesive (W) Mana cost lowered from 70/80/90/100/110 to 60/70/80/90/100 Cooldown changed from 14 at all ranks to 17/16/15/14/13 Slow changed from 35/45/55/65/75% to 40% at all ranks Adhesive duration lowered from 5 secs to 3 secs

Fling (E) Mana cost lowered from 100/110/120/130/140 to 80/95/110/125/140

Insanity Potion (R): Mana cost lowered from 150 to 100 Stat bonus changed from 35/50/80 to 35/60/85

and I'll update this when the Singed/Cho'Gath changes hit PBE and we can see the exact change list. We know that Cho's E is going to change to an active spell, with % damage and a slow attached for sticking power. Looks like a very exciting patch for juggernauts, though; buffs for 4 of them at once, here's hoping it'll bring them back into the meta :]

edit: seems like Cho'Gath isn't up on PBE yet, shame

67 Comments

Chønklord5 votes

I'm tentatively excited for singed/udyr changes; but am concerned they'll make udyr broken and then gut him completely (again) back into oblivion.

Zeke Maelstorm1 votes

Same.

fuffychan5 votes

Because tanks need MORE buffs. I swear the designers are mocking ADC and mage players with these changes

Mordepool16 votes

Not tanks.

fuffychan6 votes

Oh shut up. Does it die in one combo from a mage? No? Then its a tank.

Ahristocats2 votes

yes it does

if udyr survived to a mage combo there is a problem same for darius

unless they're both ahead and the mage got shit on

Critmaster Garen13 votes

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:30:27.576+0000)

yes it does

if udyr survived to a mage combo there is a problem same for darius

unless they're both ahead and the mage got shit on

no, wtf.

the problem is that juggernauts dont have the mobility or abilities to dodge mage burst most of the time. they need to be up close and in the middle of the enemy team to be effective, which means they cant avoid taking mage burst in the first place.

thats why juggernauts are so tanky. theyre supposed to be able to survive enemy team focus and ambient aoe damage like tibbers, or kennen ults and other burst abilities.

in return, mages usually have enough utility to kite these champions and not let them get into a position where they can carry despite being able to survive their burst.

it makes sense if a jugg dies to the second or third rotation of a mage, when he gets kited, but if hed blow up to the first rotation theyd never be able to function.

if udyr or darius CANT survive a mage combo, then theres a problem.

Ahristocats1 votes

i know all of that, but

you know when i say combo i don't mean Q+W+E+R? try to survive an ori as darius and see what happens, she will Q+W+E, slow you, then Q+W again 3 sec later then ult and you die that's what i mean by combo

same with syndra and other mages, and juggernauts can't escape them

beside, juggernauts need 2 or 3 items to be tanky, and generally build armor first

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:40:37.871+0000)

i know all of that, but

you know when i say combo i don't mean Q+W+E+R? try to survive an ori as darius and see what happens, she will Q+W+E, slow you, then Q+W again 3 sec later then ult and you die that's what i mean by combo

same with syndra and other mages, and juggernauts can't escape them

beside, juggernauts need 2 or 3 items to be tanky, and generally build armor first

well, ok, but thats not really "mage burst".

what youre discribing is more like "poke and kite until you can burst down the rest". which is something different imo.

what im thinking of when you say "mage burst" is usually a single q w e r rotation from someone like lux, annie, kennen etc.

fuffychan1 votes

This is probably the smartest thing youve ever said. Bravo.

Critmaster Garen9 votes

{quoted}

This is probably the smartest thing youve ever said. Bravo.

then ive said 1 more smart thing than you.

Bacef1 votes

fuffychan is a known troll, ignore him. please.

Bacef1 votes

fuffychan is a known troll dude

ThePikol3 votes

I have just read Udyr changes. They seem insane! With item 3071 / item 3078 +item 3053 item 3022 he will deal massive dmg while still being quite tanky

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I have just read Udyr changes. They seem insane! With item 3071 / item 3078 +item 3053 item 3022 he will deal massive dmg while still being quite tanky

thats the point of a juggernaut. he does shit right now, so massive buffs are kinda whats needed.

im REALLY concerned about the early game damage nerf on yoricks ghouls. youre usually not summoning ghouls straight up at lvl 1 but 2 damage seems pretty pathetic.

they should have tried with 6 or 8 damage at lvl 1 instead of going down from 10 to 2.

you have to remember, that most of his power budget is in his ghouls, and it affects 4 of them.

Big Lincoln3 votes

it's actually a very small dps nerf, considering that ghouls get a free hit on the new E

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:20:12.189+0000)

it's actually a very small dps nerf, considering that ghouls get a free hit on the new E

they get one single guaranteed hit for up to a combined 8 damage.

this is less damage than a single ghoul out of 4 summoned would have dealt if they just got one hit in. its quite a large damage nerf imo.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

this is less damage than a single ghoul out of 4 summoned would have dealt if they just got one hit in.

Don't forget that Ghoul damage scales with Yorick's total AD.

New Ghoul ---------------- Old Ghoul 4 * (2 + 30% AD) > 1 * (10 + 30% AD) => 8 + 120% AD > 10 + 30% AD

ThePikol1 votes

I do know that's point of juggernaut, but Udyr beside massive dmg that he will recive from this already have movement speed, attack speed and burt steroid. That is crazy!

Yeah, going from 10 to 2 is insane, he will deal no dmg early when he should be strong according to Riot. Nerf to low elo? Like what? If high elo can hit E they won't deal less dmg? I doubt it

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:17:01.245+0000)

thats the point of a juggernaut. he does shit right now, so massive buffs are kinda whats needed.

im REALLY concerned about the early game damage nerf on yoricks ghouls. youre usually not summoning ghouls straight up at lvl 1 but 2 damage seems pretty pathetic.

they should have tried with 6 or 8 damage at lvl 1 instead of going down from 10 to 2.

you have to remember, that most of his power budget is in his ghouls, and it affects 4 of them.

Honestly yorick's levels 2-3 were one of the most underrated cheeses in the game, I'm glad they're toning that down in favor of some more late-game power.

Also phoenix udyr is getting absolutely destroyed by these changes. You're mandated to go tiger every game now which kinda sucks.

Bacef1 votes

Thats every juggernaut though... deal damage like a carry, durability of a tank, but no mobility outside of some fast movespeed.

Ahristocats2 votes

those udyr changes were good until they made his R scaling with ad

terrible, really terrible decision, nerfing the base damage and making it scale with bonus ad on a champion building full tank+witsend for real

ThePikol4 votes

Well, he won't build Wit anymore. He will go for HP + AD items

Ahristocats2 votes

what ad item are you going to buy?

witsend is udyr's dream with R, it allows him to clear the jungle easily+deal tons of aoe damage in teamfight the bonus as and mr shred synergise so well while allowing his mage to deal more damage

are you going to buy black cleaver+focus on Q? black cleaver is getting a fixed cooldown on stacks so even that is bad beside, they're buffing his Q base damage and nerfing his Q ad ratio to make him build more tank than AD, that would make more sense with a witsend+full tank build than an ad+tank build

it doesn't make sense

Malicious Metal6 votes

You're gonna go Tri force and Steraks most likely due to him getting 6% base ad for every stack of his passive.

SquashCannon3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T14:42:20.762+0000)

You're gonna go Tri force and Steraks most likely due to him getting 6% base ad for every stack of his passive.

Probably that's another avenue too, I just dont like that much AS on him anymore because there's no incentive to try and reapply the DOT as fast as possible.

But now that his passive lets him literally compete with mordekaiser for highest base AD in the game tri force might be mandatory just for the sheen proc if nothing else.

I'm also betting that phoenix stance will be perma garbage no matter what you try and do with it in terms of build.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:59:05.400+0000)

what ad item are you going to buy?

witsend is udyr's dream with R, it allows him to clear the jungle easily+deal tons of aoe damage in teamfight the bonus as and mr shred synergise so well while allowing his mage to deal more damage

are you going to buy black cleaver+focus on Q? black cleaver is getting a fixed cooldown on stacks so even that is bad beside, they're buffing his Q base damage and nerfing his Q ad ratio to make him build more tank than AD, that would make more sense with a witsend+full tank build than an ad+tank build

it doesn't make sense

I'm still trying to figure out what they're doing to udyr. I'm guessing BC tank will probably be the most common build since Q DOT reapplications no longer matter that much. He might add in a steraks with his new passive, but other than that, just full tank. And yeah, RIP AP-centric udyr builds.

Big Lincoln3 votes

udyr mains on reddit looked really happy about it actually

Ahristocats1 votes

idc about reddit

witsend build is the best no matter how you look at it, witsend+full tank makes udyr destroying everyone until late game

now i don't know about trinity+sterak, i need to test it but it will make him squishier for sure

Big Lincoln5 votes

i have never seen an udyr building wits tbh

chipndip11 votes

Udyr is a Juggernaut, not a full tank. Riot should be trying to FINALLY get Udyr into some sort of line so he's easier to balance. As of now, he's just a gumbo of in-kit on-hits and an obnoxious amount of movement speed. I think it's good that he's encouraged to not be as obnoxiously fast and tanky while clawing/punching/burning my face until I die.

Penns2 votes

Why buff Yorick tho

SquashCannon2 votes

{quoted}

Why buff Yorick tho

Early game it's actually a huge nerf which is good because he can be cheesy as hell early game, particularly level 3.

Jar Jar binks l2 votes

Im qutting lol now. FKING VOLIBEAR AGAIN NO BUFFS Volibear

SquashCannon2 votes

{quoted}

Im qutting lol now. FKING VOLIBEAR AGAIN NO BUFFS Volibear

Yorick has actual counterplay, udyr has somewhat counterplay, chogath has counterplay, and singed has counterplay.

So long as volibear's kit stays the same way it is now, I hope to god he gets nothing more than a passive buff. Volibear has ZERO counterplay. He runs at you and then tries to auto you to death.

Even as a juggernaut main, i recognize that volibear's outdated ass kit needs to be fixed on a level more than "let's just buff him"

Big Lincoln2 votes

voli needs a rework first tbh

Big Lincoln2 votes

Garen was added by surprise

I don't think I'm very happy about the change, they're halving the duration at max rank and the compensation is negligible

Smitty Manjensen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-06-27T23:46:24.445+0000)

Garen was added by surprise

I don't think I'm very happy about the change, they're halving the duration at max rank and the compensation is negligible

I personally don't like it, perhaps if it were at least 4 seconds, it could work, otherwise I definitely don't like it.

Big Lincoln2 votes

nah, I've already figured it out. Garen is an assassin now

if you don't have PBE then wait until next patch. go item 3147 item 3142 + full tank, those 2 are all the damage you need to delete people before they can even come out of silence with the item changes

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-06-28T05:19:01.243+0000)

nah, I've already figured it out. Garen is an assassin now

if you don't have PBE then wait until next patch. go item 3147 item 3142 + full tank, those 2 are all the damage you need to delete people before they can even come out of silence with the item changes

well. only problem is assassins are shit right now.

if you cant kill your target in one rotation because he gets shielded, healed, has lifesteal + warlords, has a ga, youre sitting in range of a stronger opponent with nothing but much weaker auto attacks for a minimum of 5 seconds. which means youre going to die without a chance to disengage and make use of the reduced passive timer.

these buffs are the same as the armor shred buff. theyre small bandaids that fix none of his issues, and are not going to last for long.

i know i sound negative here, but i said the same when they added the armor shred, and it turned out to be true. these number buffs alone wont hold up over time.

i appreciate that theye trying, but i wish theyd try just a bit larger and more meaningful changes than this.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i just avoid teamfights entirely as garen, which i do for most juggernauts because lol @ trying to teamfight with most of them

supports and their items getting a nice nerf would be a godsend, they're making this game dumb

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-28T07:45:48.943+0000)

i just avoid teamfights entirely as garen, which i do for most juggernauts because lol @ trying to teamfight with most of them

supports and their items getting a nice nerf would be a godsend, they're making this game dumb

i still think they gave marksmen themsleves way too many failsave mechanisms on their own items without any form of tradeoffs in damage.

strong support itemization is in my opinion not nearly as bad as the new g.a. is on marksmen, the % damage reduction on phantom dancers, or the burst resistance they get from deaths dance, paired with obscene amounts of lifesteal.

yes, support itemization is stong. but that knights vow buff would probably be as strong on a juggernaut as on a marksman. redemption benefits juggs with spirit visage well too. so does the extra shielding from support kits and locket.

i think its really an issue of the support items stacked on marksmens own overpowered damage + defense items.

item 3139 could do without its lifesteal

item 3812 30% damage delay passive should be tuned down. if they thought 15% was too weak, they should have tried with 20% instead of straight up doubling it.

item 3046 is the largest stat stick for attack speed and crit for marksmen and doesnt need the % damage reduction.

item 3026 should just be straight up reverted in my opinion.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

also, the fact that thyre starting to pull juggernauts out of the gutter, gives me somewhat hope that theyre getting to work on garen in one of the next patches.

they have a lot of work in front of them though. they threw almost the entire class into the garbage bin.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-06-27T11:54:05.462+0000)

also, the fact that thyre starting to pull juggernauts out of the gutter, gives me somewhat hope that theyre getting to work on garen in one of the next patches.

they have a lot of work in front of them though. they threw almost the entire class into the garbage bin.

Darius lul what garbage bin

Big Lincoln2 votes

almost

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Darius lul what garbage bin

literally the only jugg who isnt garbage right now. and even he took a slight hit.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uEdtNQRi,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2017-06-27T19:14:07.719+0000)

literally the only jugg who isnt garbage right now. and even he took a slight hit.

well, i wouldnt have minded the recent darius nerf if it were for a more legitimate reason other than "bronze and silvers were crying too hard this time around (We know its courage but we'll nerf darius too lul)"

meanwhile same champions in competitive play for like a whole year.

LyingOnLine1 votes

Nasus when.

ripGarenGod1 votes

Garen recieved buffs to his passive! Garen Perseverance (P): [new effect] "increased to [Double Initial Value]% of max health if Garen is below [20/25/50% at level 1/5/11] health."

Big Lincoln2 votes

thanks for letting me know

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