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Is New Rengar Too Powerful? (Opinions and Analysis)

Legacy Hydralpha··7 votes·2,495 views

Hey boards, so with pre-season out, we've been experiencing some awesome, but crazy, changes. During pre-seasons, League isn't exactly known for being balanced (but hey, when is it known for that?) and so, we get some champs that show a bit more power than others. Who am I referring to? If you read the title you'd see it's Rengar; he's one of the reworked assassins and was given some new additions to his kit to allow him to really be the hunter he's shown as in the lore; but is he a bit too powerful? I'm going to give my opinion on his new abilities to see if, on paper, he really is OP. I'm gonna include a TL;DR at the end if you don't want to waste valuable gaming time with too many words.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Rengar_0.jpg

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.20.1/img/passive/Rengar_Passive.png So first we have Rengar's reworked passive: Unseen Predator. Rengar still has the surprise attack from the bush, but his Ferocity mechanic and Bonetooth Necklace have been changed a bit. Ferocity now only has 4 stacks, and will be lost when Rengar leaves combat, but leaping into combat from stealth will give a stack. This new ferocity mechanic means that Rengar just has to jump an opponent and spam his abilities to get those 4 stacks, while the real trick is empowering the right one. As for Bonetooth Necklace, now it gives a flat AD bonus as well as some % AD bonus for each unique champion kill. Unique champion kills is the ticket here; Rengar is actually hunting different targets and not just snowballing off of one squishy Marksman. What problem could I see in this "healthier" passive? It lies in the Bonetooth Necklace, you can get some pretty large AD bonuses with a fully stacked Necklace; trust me, I've seen Rengars with around 200 AD at 14-15 minutes into the game. Perhaps with some tweaking, this ability won't snowball Rengar into killing your 500 armor Malphite, who thought Thornmail, Dead Man's Plate, and then straight armor was a good idea.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/bf/Savagery.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/64?cb=20161030002258&format=webp Savagery has been reworked from a simple attack enhancer into a more interesting ability. Sadly, as it stands, the artwork for the ability has not been reworked on the League website. Anyways... Savagery is now a skillshot. It makes Rengar slash in an arch in front of him, and then he stabs forward; the stab is able to go farther if Rengar aims it farther. Empowering this ability greatly increases his damage. To get the real idea behind this ability's damage, I'm going to compare it to Rengar's old Q. For this comparison, let's say Rengar has 200 AD and has this ability maxed out.

OLD Savagery: (200 x 1.5) + 150 = 450 physical damage

NEW Savagery: ((200 x 0.7) + 120) x 2 (it deals damage per strike) = 520 physical damage

So we can already see a pretty good increase in damage, with 70 more physical damage. And reminder that this is the normal Savagery, not the enhanced one. And since this is % AD bonus on top of a flat AD bonus PER STRIKE, even without higher than base AD scaling this ability is a pretty large nuke onto the enemy. Given, this is Rengar's main damage output, so it should have a lot of damage, but with ferocity he can get off a lot more than one nuke. Combine this ability's damage with the amount of snowball Rengar gets, it can hurt even the largest tanks.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/39/Battle_Roar.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123207&format=webp Battle Roar now works a bit like Tahm Kench's shield ability, it converts 50% of damage taken into grey health, which can be restored by the roar. The empowered roar breaks all CC on Rengar and gives him immunity to CC for 1.5 seconds. Battle Roar has always been Rengar's defensive option, but that identity is solidified further with this change. Honestly, it's pretty nice. Sure, having an immunity to CC is pretty strong on an Assassin, given that CC is the main way of stopping them unless you're an ADC who has enough damage and lifesteal to shoot Knife Cat down and still be alive (Caitlyns...). To be fair, this ability seems alright to me, and using the empowered roar takes away some of your more useful damage. @Riot, maybe you want to look at empowered Battle Roar's interaction with Vi ult; something happened where I was halfway through my ult and about to dunk the fool but he used Battle Roar and kept flying up for a bit longer.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d3/Bola_Strike.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123208&format=webp This didn't really change except for a larger slow, so I'm not gonna really bother with it.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/56/Thrill_of_the_Hunt.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123213&format=webp Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar's ultimate is now a camouflage which lasts longer and gives Rengar's next leap a critical strike. Also, he reveals the closest target to him and his team, shown by scary cat eyes. The new changes give more time for the enemy to coordinate to stop Rengar's hunt on their poor ADC. The camouflage and eyes show you what Rengar is gonna do, with being able to see camouflage targets if they're close enough, and when Rengar's on my carry I can get ready to CC him back into the jungle. So, Rengar's guaranteed crit isn't modified, it's always 200% (provided the enemy doesn't have a Randuin's Omen) and with Rengar's massive snowballing in damage, imagine how easily this kills your ADC, mid laner, jungler, support, and tank. Perhaps if this ability was a modified crit to deal less damage, it wouldn't be as bursty and Rengar would give his prey some time to be a man and fight back.

TL;DR http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/6e/Unseen_Predator.png/revision/latest?cb=20161030002543 Snowballs with AD bonus, probably. http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/bf/Savagery.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/64?cb=20161030002258&format=webp A whole lotta damage in two strikes. http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/39/Battle_Roar.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123207&format=webp It's cool, but needs to have bug fixes with certain interactions. http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d3/Bola_Strike.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123208&format=webp Oh hey look I get 10% more slow when I max this ability! http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/56/Thrill_of_the_Hunt.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123213&format=webp IMO, a much healthier ultimate which has better counterplay.

So with the end of this massive post, I just want to remind everyone that these are MY OPINIONS. I'm not going to act like I'm 100% correct and those who don't agree with me are wrong, but I'm not gonna really take your feedback if what you say is "omg bronze skrub just git gud at fighting knife cat". My idea is Rengar just snowballs so much better with the bonus AD from his passive, and he doesn't get some of the fancier benefits from his old passive, provided you think that bonus leap range and extra movement speed during his ultimate are fancy.

12 Comments

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Old Rengar Q could crit. Well the basic attack part that is. But it's still worth mentioning.

His W is supposed to be his defensive ability, that he saves untill he needs it. But in reality, he just uses it on-leap so he can get his 4th ferocity stack.

His ultimate is much healthier for sure. But I would definetly say it got nerfed. But the lower cooldown on it is really nice. That I will admit.

-_- Old Rengar was definetly a better and stronger assassin. I think the new one might be a stronger champion overall, once people find out the correct build for him. What kind of build? I dont know. But my money would be on a Fighter/Skirmisher build.

Resonance x LFT1 votes

I'm not sure how I feel about Rengar being able to break free of CC. I feel like that's a really strong ability that doesn't give a lot of counterplay. I do like the reworked vision, though. It makes it easier to play against, as I frequently banned Rengar even when he wasn't meta.

1313e1 votes

I think that his Q cooldown is a bit too low, but the damage is perfectly fine. Not sure how I feel about his ability to break free from CC with empowered W, but it does however remove his ability to use an empowered Q in a fight (unless the fight lasts pretty long), which removes a huge amount of his damage. His R is pretty good now: He only gains vision of and can only jump to the target closest to him, and all 10 players in the game know exactly which champion that target is. This makes it a lot easier to counterplay his attack. His ult is now also a camouflage, meaning Rengar also has to take a path to his target that doesn't cross any control wards or other enemy champions. (Because he will be seen then, and most likely die.)

I think he is actually pretty balanced now.

Ultîma1 votes

I think the free stats he gets from Bonetooth Necklace are a bit high right now. I think it's the biggest reason why he snowballs too easily and too quickly. Other than that the kit's generally been improved as far as counterplay is concerned.

Hash Clash1 votes

CC immunity and especially removal is way too much. I'll be banning him until he sees further nerfs.

Teridax681 votes

He's a bit strong, yeah, but that can be fixed with decreases to his numbers. What worries me more is that Rengar still has a fairly snowbally pattern. No matter how you implement it, Bonetooth Necklace is a mechanic that, at its very core, makes Rengar better at killing for getting kills, which will only ever push him towards being feast-or-famine. He still has a lot of upfront burst for his near-guaranteed initiation, which is the prime reason why he was unhealthy pre-rework. For sure, his Q takes a bit more time, and he's more dependent overall on his basic attacks, but even his R crit makes him more liable to kill targets far too quickly when he's ahead. He also still doesn't have the best means of walking out of fights, even with his new W, which means he's still very likely to die if he doesn't kill his target in time. His rework may have softened his problems somewhat, but it doesn't seem like it's resolved them.

Draknar1 votes

I'm a main Rengar player. In fact, I exclusively played Rengar for three seasons on two accounts.

Everyone expected a rework that was supposed to transform him from being an unfun character for everyone else in the game to being a fun experience for all.

Instead, Rengar is a lot easier to play now, burst harder than before while the whole playstyle feels less rewarding and flimsy. He is now hated both by his oppenents and by the vast majority of Rengar mains.

This is and excerpt from a similar post submitted a day ago by Durta: "To me and a lot of Rengar mains, his identity, what made him distinct, was taken away from him. Rengar's identity was in his combos. The reason you would do so much damage would be based on how reliably and quickly you can pull of these not-so-easy combos. [...] You have completely recreated Rengar. Now there are no combos to set up and execute. You just jump in and press Q. There's your damage."

Advanced fast mechanics that when mastered were extremely fun and rewarding - that was the core of the old Rengar, increasing your succes rate through skill, not by XX% gain in bonus attack damage that you now can use each and every time you enter battle.

Rengar is now quite a boring kitty and the following impressions defend this affirmation:

**1. You turned Thrill of the Hunt into a lame scouting ability. ** No longer is your heart pumping with the prospect of the life and death decisions you will have to make in a short time, no more tickling satisfaction that follows an ability of great potential but with associated risks. No more thrill of the hunt. Decision making, the very thing that differentiate a good Rengar from a bad one, turned into a 30 seconds scouting marathon with no final utility other than one final crit?! Even the scouting ability is crippled.

**2. His Q is now a skillshot. ** Yes, we are talking about the fact that an ability with an extremely short CD is now a skill shot. Every 3 seconds in a fight, you strive to keep the mouse pointer in a certain position on a certain side of Rengar, his front side. A forced visual effort stealing situational awareness. Less fighting style with more eye and hand fatigue. The most hard to accept things are derived from this limitation imposed on mouse movement flow during battle. Some lighting-fast combos are now rendered impossible or awkward. Let's imagine you fight someone in the bush. Before rework, you could efficiently use Q while effortlessly plan ahead, having the mouse on another target for that split-second jump out of the bush for a fast double kill, or maybe jump on that jungle crit, avoiding incoming enemy while still managing to finish off your initial target. Another situation, let's day you gank bot before lvl6. You managed to stick and inflict sustained damage on a dashy ADC with a combo of back and forth continuous flow of movement and jumps in an S pattern along the bush lane. Very awkward to reproduce now because of the cursor flow gaps necessary for a successful skillshot.

3. Q animation and new sound effects feels less rewarding. You had this nice, consistent impression of heavy thrusting attacks. He is now fluffing his knives with great discrepancy between damage output and the animation/sound effects. Also, there is no longer a visual difference between a normal attack and a critical.

4. The new ferocity system. Stacks decaying strip away most of the fun of ups and lows associated with his style. There is too much linearity to the point that he is now boring and predictable.

  • Are you in the bush ? You have empowered Q. Boom!
  • The notion of being caught pants down with no stacks? Gone. Just march through your jungle with no fear.
  • Kiling the river crit? Why not use your empowered Q, there's no waste now.
  • Goodbye to some early counter jungle tactics. Previously, you could gain three stacks on the first camp then forcing your luck with a level 2 gank using an empowered Q on a wardless, unsuspecting enemy jungler doing his second camp.

The list of fun titbits that are no longer accesible is ofcouse longer.

Notice how many times I used the word FUN. It took me only 4-5 matches after the rework to realize why I was not having fun anymore.

To the people who are working towards maintaining LoL a fun to play game: Please consider a re-re-rework that honor both the actual Rengar players and his opponents. Or forget any rework.

Meanwhile, please revert to the old, fun to play, sometimes frustratingly risky, other times amazing kitty.

Melledoneus1 votes

Anything that keeps Vayne in check.

I personally find Rengar and Kha too powerful, but if those brute force assassins can skewer Vayne then I guess we can tolerate them until they're all nerfed. Because when you're playing Twitch and you're 10/2 and a 3/8 Vayne 1v1s you and kills you even if you use all your tools to kill her, there is a fundamental problem with her power.

Legacy Hydralpha1 votes

Killing Vayne is something I can agree with more than nerfing Rengar.

Draknar1 votes

What do you think of A TWO STAGE RENGAR ULTIMATE ? This is probably something they've been pondering about, but it worth throwing out.

  • This elegantly eliminates the trouble with Rengar being able to scout enemy positions for the whole duration of his ultimatum without implementing gimmicks like crippled vision - you can see the ADC but not the support breathing in his neck ? This is not some kind of turn-based strategy.
  • You no longer reveal the direction you are coming from while they can still detect your presence.
  • Scout for the short duration of VISION and chase your target while in HUNT mode. Or maybe go directly in HUNT mode sacrificing awareness for speed.

Lets call these two stages/modes VISION and HUNT.

Obviously, you enter VISION immediately after you press R. This stage can have a short duration, let's say 5-6 seconds. During this time you can select an enemy champion as a target. HUNT - you can enter this mode right after you designated a target by right clicking/attacking and enemy champion during VISION mode or by pressing R a second time to choose the closest enemy. If you start by double tapping R you automatically enter HUNT after 1 second of VISION with the closest enemy champion targeted. Note: If you are in VISION and you right-click to designate a target within the jump range, you enter HUNT and you also perform the attack jump.

In VISION mode you gain:

  • instant vision on all enemy champions on a certain radius. Within a smaller radius, the affected enemy get the old-style exclamation mark while your target see the reworked scary cat eyes
  • invisibility and the jump ability, both after 1 second
  • a visual indicator with the remaining time of VISION

In HUNT mode:

  • you instantly loose vision on all enemy champions except your target
  • gain the movement speed buff
  • invisibility transform into stealth (makes sense, as the original Predator was pretty much invisible while standing still but detectable while fast moving)
  • gain bonus damage and/or attack speed if you jump on the designated target. Elegantly tweak the Bonetooth Necklace bonuses to function differently/exclusively against the marked target. Nobody wants the full 30% extra AD that you can just throw at anyone.

P.S. Please excuse my English

Oglaf1 votes

30% free bonus AD (a whooping 42% if he kills Kha'zix) is really so utterly stupid that nobody could honestly defend it. Combined with his Battleroar healing him immensely AND giving him a free Olaf ulti...

Yeah it is not rocket surgery to see that he needs a nerf, badly.

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