Jungle EXP needs to be hotfixed, this role is now unplayable in games with good players

Yenn··25 votes·8,762 views

Every single lane needs to have priority, or you may as well go AFK.

You also can't help them get priority, because you're forced to farm. If you stop farming to pressure a lane, your opponent invades and steals your camps, putting you extremely behind, because every camp matters.

When your second buffs spawn, you're basically just removed from the game if your lanes don't already have priority on their own. If the opponent has priority, you'll be invaded and killed by a level 7 laner at each buff, while you're still only level 4, pushing level 5.

Likewise, the top and mid lane are almost completely ungankable, because you're at such a huge level disadvantage. If your laner is already losing, you can't do anything to help them or pressure the lane, because you'll just die. It's incredibly frustrating to watch this and know the opponent is starting to snowball, without being able to do anything about it.

Bottom lane is also virtually untouchable, because you cannot go Sweeper pre-6. The ward trinket is necessary to stop the laners from catching you in your jungle.

Even more fun is when you're behind the enemy jungle. Every camp they steal puts you further behind, with no way to catch up. Warwick is currently pushing 57% win rate because he can just constantly invade and shut down his opponent with little risk.

These changes should be completely reverted. The role is almost entirely ineffective in this state. If not, there at least needs to be some change to mitigate invading.

34 Comments

Yenn6 votes

In a recent game, I had an Ezreal in bottom lane and started my Red late and without a leash due to a level 1 fight. I then went straight to my Blue. As I started doing it, the enemy bottom, mid, and level 3 Warwick invaded me and I had to concede both blue and gromp. I go to do Krugs so I can finally get level 3, and the level 3 Warwick runs in and steals the big Krug with smite because I'm only level 2.

I'm now level 2 and the only camp up is raptors, which won't even give me level 3. There is quite literally nothing I can do to get back into this game, because catch up mechanics are gone.

In another game, I had to concede all 4 dragons to the enemy Jax despite being a 9-3-5 Udyr, because I had a Ryze in mid lane and he never has priority. This happens in every single game with a late game champion in one of your lanes.

Jungle has basically devolved into being a smite bot. The individual impact has dropped to near zero.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

The problem is you did not have a team ?

4 drakes ? So you mean at 20 minuts your midlane still had a tower ?

Fuhrer Usagi6 votes

Go tryn or noc. build sanguine. Don't even tier 2 the jg item. Just rush sanguine. Feels like regular jg at that point

Mihalikb6 votes

I don't play Jungle but I have the same feeling of near uselessness top.

Herald is pointless, it's a useless time/resource investment that you risk dying over if you try to take it, but if you do take it, it won't even give you a tower kill.

You get way more out of just contesting and getting the Scuttle Crab, as it gives gold/roam/vision. Scuttle right now is magnitudes more valuable than a Herald.

Also if you actually roam to assist with Dragons you don't just surrender priority but also CS, XP and probably plates, turning your lane into a losing one.

The whole game is a mess decided 100% around the Dragon pit that as a top laner you have little to no impact on unless you are playing Shen/Ryze/Pantheon/Galio and maybe Quinn.

This is not even discussing the balance problems around Conqueror on mages and Sanguine Blade on auto attackers.

Two words define this season for me so far, impotence and frustration.

muteallpce4 votes

There is a counter to invades and that is teamwork and warding, neither of which happen in the majority of solo queue games, and if they do, it's not done well. So there needs to be either more player autonomy in preventing invades or just revert the changes, because right now the only real legitimate jungle game play pattern I see is hard camping and farming heroes instead of farming jungle, and ain't nobody going to like that.

The only people who will like this are people who watch pro play because it incentivises hyper aggressive game play, so it's yet again a case of Riot trying to make pro play better instead of the game better for the 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the player base that don't play professionally.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

{quoted}

There is a counter to invades and that is teamwork and warding, neither of which happen in the majority of solo queue games, and if they do, it's not done well. So there needs to be either more player autonomy in preventing invades or just revert the changes, because right now the only real legitimate jungle game play pattern I see is hard camping and farming heroes instead of farming jungle, and ain't nobody going to like that.

The only people who will like this are people who watch pro play because it incentivises hyper aggressive game play, so it's yet again a case of Riot trying to make pro play better instead of the game better for the 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the player base that don't play professionally.

That's actually exactly the opposite.

Now farming heroes is less rewarding and less possible because if you do not clear your jungle, you are falling behind.

mark60284 votes

Junglers having a mental breakdown because they actually have to play their role again and can't just autopilot buff camp camp gank camp gank camp gank with the map being split in half at red side for both junglers.

Which obviously means jungle is doomed as is every season despite it being the most broken role since s6 only rivaled by duo botlane.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

These changes should be completely reverted.

Most definitely not, impact disparity between jungle and other roles, especially the solo lanes, needed to be vastly reduced or this game wouldn't last another season.

Sorry but falling behind because your lanes don't have prio is really no different then falling behind bacause your jungler doesn't has prio. Nor is getting invaded any worse then getting camped.

Now, the nerfs might have been too much, IMO it's hard to judge them immediately due to simultaneous dragon changes, but they were extremely needed and way overdue. Junglers were allowed their "overlord" role in soloq in the name of dynamic pro play for way, way too long.

So some help for junglers - probably yes, I can definitely see the struggle. Complete revert - plain and simple no, those changes overall pushed the game in better direction.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

I gotta say, having been delayed by 15 seconds getting first blood on a draven that tried to pull some shenanigans at my red buff at the beginning of the game, I found my blue buff gone as well as the enemy jungle’s own jungle cleared. Now, I’m not a jungle player, and I really was only testing it out, but that does feel kind of silly. If the enemy laners show up in my jungle at all and my teammates do not reciprocate, never being able to catch up feels preeeeetty ridiculous.

ŚtrongMental2 votes

I feel bad that you see jungle in one-dimension. If you want to catch some XP that would give you an edge back into the game, find a source of solo XP that doesn't impact laners (much) it is out there, you just have to find it. Most games you should be breaking even with solo laners in levels, if not be 1-2 ahead by 13 minutes. if you aren't you are doing something wrong (regardless of jungler taken)

Tydo Legend1 votes

This is honestly a thing of the past. You have not played the patch if you feel this way. Unless I literally never gank I'm barely able to keep ahead of the duo lane adc. If I gank appropriately I will be behind. Like ganking without 100% guarantee of a kill is not worth it anymore at all.

ŚtrongMental1 votes

Then you are doing something wrong. Albeit choosing a jungler without proper clear speed, or spam ganking (which is where most people are now losing EXP) there is a fine line around "clear speed" and "ganking" - if you are paying attention to the lanes as you move, you shouldn't have issues finding a lane with priority that you can work towards ganking, while still clearing.

Tydo Legend1 votes

You are just wrong as can be. Let me be clear. If I pick the jungler with the fastest clear in the game and I straight farm and only farm I will barely be able to stay ahead of the adc exp. Barely.

I'm being serious when I say the jungle now feels unplayable. I don't use the word unplayable lightly.

As a jungler, if you completely farm camp after camp and never gank you will barely be able to have slightly more exp than the adc. Top and Mid will be 1-2 levels ahead of you by default. Even the losing top and mid will be ahead of you. And that is if you do not gank at all.

Ganking is debately not even worth it anymore. When you gank the enemy jungler will always invade since the likelihood that your jungle camps are up are a severe degree higher then what they use to be. When you try to gank it will be extremely hard since you WILL be at least 1 level behind and god forbid the gank fails you will be so far behind you'll be barely able to do anything.

On top of all of this midlaners have caught onto this. All aggressive midlaners will hard invade your jungle. Let me put this very bluntly... A scaling midlaner and any jungler can no longer deal with an aggressive midlaner AT ALL. There is no equal start to the game anymore.

Jungle now can be summed up very easily "Playing from behind from the start with barely any way to make an impact"

If any lane is losing you WILL be 2-3 lvls behind the winning enemy lane and ganking is simply way too risky. This is the new default standard of the game.

I've played over 10,000 games of jungle over the past 7 years and I've played about 30 games on this patch and I can very seriously say I will never play another game till this shit is fixed.

ŚtrongMental1 votes

I think you haven't played enough shyvana or nunu - maybe givem a try. If by chance you are still behind in level of your top//mid laner than you are building incorrectly, and your pathing is WAY off - correct both of those and you shouldn't have an issue not only passing your solo laners in levels, but also helping them when they need it... (as I've seen lately, but haven't done myself - karthus seems to be the right pick for nearly everybody in any ELO)

Tydo Legend1 votes

Here is a video to perfectly demonstrate how wrong you are. Ignore my build and runes in this video since they do not affect anything in this particular video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAInl6F480k

I consider this video power farm heavy with extremely fast clears. I intentionally ignore ganking.

At 7:17 I hit 6 while my Adc hits 6 at 17:57. So I barely am ahead of my ad, that is behind in lane and has a death, I have had to power farm constantly just to be slightly ahead of him

At 12:21 I am up 29 cs from yas and he has been feeding his lane 2/4/0 while I'm 0/0/2 and he is STILL a level ahead of me.

At 12:47 Quinn hits lvl 10 when I am still lvl 8 yet I have 4 more cs than her.

At 17:27 I have 20 cs more than Quinn and have higher KPA experience yet she is still 1 lvl higher

ŚtrongMental1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-11-24T15:18:29.391+0000)

find a source of solo XP that doesn't impact laners (much) it is out there, you just have to find it.

I see a source of solo exp... in fact, that would not directly impact solo laners. A good example is 6 minutes into the video... on the ball

[{quoted}](name=Tydo Legend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-11-28T08:19:57.109+0000)

This is honestly a thing of the past.

[{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T09:10:52.109+0000)

Then you are doing something wrong.

You almost got the answer right, but failed to find that source of exp... power farming doesn't just mean "I'm not going to enter a lane at all pre-midgame"

[{quoted}](name=Tydo Legend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T09:25:15.940+0000)

You are just wrong as can be. Let me be clear. If I pick the jungler with the fastest clear in the game and I straight farm and only farm I will barely be able to stay ahead of the adc exp. Barely.

among other countless mistakes:

[{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T10:13:23.798+0000)

I think you haven't played enough shyvana or nunu

Yenn3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T09:10:52.109+0000)

Then you are doing something wrong. Albeit choosing a jungler without proper clear speed, or spam ganking (which is where most people are now losing EXP) there is a fine line around "clear speed" and "ganking" - if you are paying attention to the lanes as you move, you shouldn't have issues finding a lane with priority that you can work towards ganking, while still clearing.

You don't seem to understand the issue, which is understandable, because you aren't high enough to experience the game with any remotely decent players.

In Diamond+, if your lane doesn't have priority, it's almost 100% guaranteed that your first buff respawn will be invaded. You can't contest it because you lose the 2v2 and the enemy solo lane, who is currently stronger than yours, and has a level 6 advantage over you.

Because you need to power farm just to stay even on EXP, the lanes are left to their natural priority. If you do attempt to gank early to help your team get priority, the enemy jungle will just poach your camps, putting you permanently behind.

If this happens, you'll be level 4 when your buffs spawn, and you'll get invaded and likely one shot by a level 6 solo lane if you don't concede, even if your lane has priority. Alternatively, if the enemy jungle was power farming while you ganked, they can just invade you alone and out-smite you, because they have at least a 1 level advantage.

You're stuck in a scenario where there are no winning options and the flow of the game is entirely decided by champion select. Everyone is aware that jungle has no catch up mechanic and anything you can do to fuck with them will put them permanently behind and force them to give up all objectives, so everyone's #1 priority is now fucking up the enemy jungle because it usually secures your team every objective for the entire game.

If both buffs aren't warded by the solo lanes 30 seconds before they spawn in 90% of your games, you probably shouldn't be weighing in on this problem.

ŚtrongMental1 votes

You say I'm playing from a lower elo, but I can clearly see the issue you state, and you don't see how to fix it. lets say you lose priority in lane and therefor you know you are going to be invaded and (possibly lose) a 2v2 if you don't concede the camp, but there are 4 buff camps on the map, 2 buff camps should be coming up at roughly the same time, so why aren't you going for the enemy camp while they are on yours? you know they will clear your side of the map, so problem solve this by clearing their side... warding properly will help you escape when you know they are coming, and clearing wards will help with dodging incoming players. Answers simple, yet you seem to make it sound difficult... I don't know why :/ maybe it is the difference in ELO

Yenn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=00090000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T10:13:57.932+0000)

but there are 4 buff camps on the map, 2 buff camps should be coming up at roughly the same time, so why aren't you going for the enemy camp while they are on yours?

How to get collapsed on and die 101. Imagine trying to discuss jungle balance while thinking that any form of invasion while your lane doesn't have priority is a remotely good idea.

ŚtrongMental1 votes

did ya ferget howta ward? (i know the answer) did ya ferget howta look atda map? (i know the answer) But wait... theres more... an easy escape, but you don't know how to take it... You're leaving so many options open to attack at this point.

Give a cut and dry scenario,. There is ALWAYS a way around it, for everything. If you do your job correctly you wont be collapsed on, and if you are, you should be out before anybody gets too close

Support Position2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-11-24T19:43:48.100+0000)

Just a question, are you killing your krugs? As they are the best non buff exp in the game other than gromp.

You HAVE to protect Gromp, Krugs and raptors. Other than your buffs. Ward up. Its not exp that sucks. Its the fact that SPECIFIC champions are good.

Khazix Rengar Jax Kayn LeeSin Nocturne Nunu Skarner (With pillar) Tryndamere Trundle XinZhao Warwick Volibear Udyr

Now a days you HAVE to play things that YOU can 1v1 enemy junglers.

Zac Rammus (some situations.) Evelynn Gragas Graves (kind of) Fiddlesticks Amumu things like this YOU CANNOT play anymore. At all. Period. You're too exp and gold dependant. You at level 1. NEED to be able to fight an enemy jungler and win.

That's this meta for the junglers. Staying IN their jungle. Basically not ganking unless its 100% FOR SURE. A kill. Or a flash for a guaranteed kill next time. It's "unfortunate" but its the new meta.

Ivern Unless your this. Then you know what? You can do whatever the fuck you want cause you'll just take it anyway.

Ashe mage AD1 votes

So what you're saying is if they added wards on jungle item so you can buy red trinket that would be fine or?

Yenn7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashe mage AD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-24T09:15:47.193+0000)

So what you're saying is if they added wards on jungle item so you can buy red trinket that would be fine or?

No, having to concede camps is still too crippling without any catch up mechanic. The problem isn't knowing you're being invaded, it's that you can't do anything about it, and you can't recover from it.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

Yeah feels about right. Every game where a jungler even fell behind by 30 seconds it seemed like they never could recover from that. Always playing from behind, with that lead compounding.

WoonStruck1 votes

It'd be nice if they removed the "first camp exp bonus" and actually properly scaled the jungle and respawn.

If junglers are just clearing too efficiently and not interacting with the game, instead of adjusting spawn time, adjust TIME INVESTMENT to each camp. This is why Krugs were BALANCED despite their massive exp/gold difference to other camps.

If certain champs become problematic because of bonus damage effects (which includes on-hits, %HP in many forms, etc) then reduce specific or even ALL forms of bonus damage, maybe with the exception of jungle items. If certain champs remain a problem, you know they probably need reduced monster damage on some skills. Possibly increase/reduce these bonuses depending on the stage of the game. Hell, with the amount of data tracked by the API, you could have the jungle items increase/decrease your damage based on your dps while fighting monsters. This would make it a catch-up mechanism for slow junglers (tanks, so they don't have to have broken damage to reliably jungle) without directly increasing exp/gold, and would be unaffected by gank time.

Yenn1 votes

Lmao literally watching an Olaf take every single dragon with full vision, as well as invading all of the buffs in my fully warded jungle with his mid lane, and not being able to do anything about it because I have a Kassadin in mid and I'm already insanely behind from having to concede everything.

While every camp I concede puts me permanently further behind because we decided to remove catch up mechanics from the jungle for some reason.

This is insane.

Aminumbra1 votes

Wow, it is as if all your laners were individually weaker than their direct opponent, and if you picked a champion unable to farm against the ennemy jungler, then ... you can't farm ! How sad. Ever played toplane with a shitty matchup, and with a jungler that does not come top at all (either because he doesn't want to, or can't) ? Well, you ALSO concede any form of priority and are basically a walking minion. Ever got frozen by a Tryndamere for 5 consecutives minutes because your jungler don't want to help you burst the freeze ? Well, you also are denied xp. Ever played a weak early game adc, like Vayne, with a Soraka, against Lucian/Thresh ? Well, you also concede a shit ton of cs, and prio, hence drakes, and the ennemy support is free to roam midlane and win the mid matchup.

Junglers have forgotten that the global team composition can directly affect your matchup. As top is greatly influenced by jungle, and mid can be influenced by jungle and support matchups, you, as a jungler, can also be put in a difficult situation due to how other lanes are going. Your mid has no prio, your top has no prio and you're strong enough to invade the ennemy jungler ? Then of course you are gonna lose things, while would you be able to farm safely when anyone in the same situation would have to concede things ? Now, you have to take a decision, and decide what you are going to farm, if you are going to steal the ennemy camps when he is taking yours, etc.

That being said, it is possible that the numbers still need some tuning, as I have indeed seen some junglers being SUPER behind their counterpart. However, it is possible that they were simply playing poorly, in which case the xp diff could simply be fair. However, removing the catch-up xp mechanic is good. If you are behind, you have to play better than your ennemy to come back, not simply farm one full jungle clear & be back into the game as if nothing happened.

blindasleep1 votes

{quoted}

Every single lane needs to have priority, or you may as well go AFK.

You also can't help them get priority, because you're forced to farm. If you stop farming to pressure a lane, your opponent invades and steals your camps, putting you extremely behind, because every camp matters.

When your second buffs spawn, you're basically just removed from the game if your lanes don't already have priority on their own. If the opponent has priority, you'll be invaded and killed by a level 7 laner at each buff, while you're still only level 4, pushing level 5.

Likewise, the top and mid lane are almost completely ungankable, because you're at such a huge level disadvantage. If your laner is already losing, you can't do anything to help them or pressure the lane, because you'll just die. It's incredibly frustrating to watch this and know the opponent is starting to snowball, without being able to do anything about it.

Bottom lane is also virtually untouchable, because you cannot go Sweeper pre-6. The ward trinket is necessary to stop the laners from catching you in your jungle.

Even more fun is when you're behind the enemy jungle. Every camp they steal puts you further behind, with no way to catch up. Warwick is currently pushing 57% win rate because he can just constantly invade and shut down his opponent with little risk.

These changes should be completely reverted. The role is almost entirely ineffective in this state. If not, there at least needs to be some change to mitigate invading.

I had the idea of Ivern taking unsealed spellbook, smite and teleport, as support, since he can support, so you can steal a buff and then teleport out to bot tower or back and then to bot for slightly more lane advantage as long as you had faith in your duo, just of because how jungle mains have been saying how much harder getting counter jungled fucks them now. Someone I talked to about it did it in gold and it worked at least a few games for them.

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

I had the idea of Ivern taking unsealed spellbook, smite and teleport, as support, since he can support, so you can steal a buff and then teleport out to bot tower or back and then to bot for slightly more lane advantage as long as you had faith in your duo, just of because how jungle mains have been saying how much harder getting counter jungled fucks them now. Someone I talked to about it did it in gold and it worked at least a few games for them.

Some people are playing support top with either an ADC or Yi jungle.

blindasleep1 votes

{quoted}

Some people are playing support top with either an ADC or Yi jungle.

There was someone in a thread about the support item changes complaining about a Veigar using spell thief's top in their plat EUNE game, he played Urgot. They both had low farm, 5-6/minute, and it was a one sided fiesta, but the Veigar had more gold than him from shutdowns and not just getting wrecked like the rest of his team. Game was 23 minutes with almost 70 kills split about around 45 to 25.Guess funnel is back in at least in some fashion as well based on what you're saying.

ImGoingScotty1 votes

I'm low ranked but I feel it's more focused on the lane setting up a gank. I've just been playing normals mainly assassins in jungle and don't even bother with lanes unless they're actually kill able ganks. If they're pushing fuck em. I'll go in if I can pick a kill or get a lane a kill but you can't try to force anything with how the jungle is now. Also you can take advantage of the enemy jungler trying to put pressure. For instance you're clearing top and they just failed a gank bot lane.. go take their jungle it's free at that point.

NaughtyWord1 votes

Whenever I'm autofilled it is for jungle.

I'm refusing to play that mess of a lane. It's rare I dodge games, but now I will. The fact I rarely play the lane notwithstanding. It is also self-evident that I'm far from the only one with this perception considering I'm constantly autofilled for the role.

The only people playing the lane are die-hard junglers and autofills.

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