if graves applies multiple cleaver stacks with his bullets

Critmaster Garen·Aug 26, 2016·48 votes·2,894 views

does he get hit by thornmails passive for each bullet aswell? seems only fair.

26 Comments

Maximum MordeAug 26, 201617 votes

This is actually a good question. It should also proc multiple Rammus W or Annie E as well pls.

PennsAug 26, 201611 votes

Then it would/should also proc 4+ on-hit effects tho.

Critmaster GarenAug 26, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Then it would/should also proc 4+ on-hit effects tho.

doesnt it though? it looks like it procs lifesteal on all bullets for example.

basically where another adc attacks two or three times, he attacks once with slightly longer pauses between attacks and lifesteals for 2 to 3 auto attacks worth of damage. this means it should also proc thornmail more than once to compensate.

this would be enough of a reason. i mean not sure if it really matters, since he can stack up stupid amounts of mr on his e anyways but still.

It Hertz When IPAug 26, 20165 votes

The AMOUNT of LS that procs is based on the amount of bullets that connect (final damage amount), it does not proc on-hits independently. It'd be just like if (say) Miss Fortune built pure AD and no AS.

Critmaster GarenAug 26, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u2wv0b4w,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-26T19:55:45.994+0000)

The AMOUNT of LS that procs is based on the amount of bullets that connect (final damage amount), it does not proc on-hits independently. It'd be just like if (say) Miss Fortune built pure AD and no AS.

so yes, when graves attacks once, it deals auto attack damage as if another adc attacks twice or three times, and he lifesteals as much.

so thornmail should also proc multiple times.

its like back when jhins attack damage wasnt reduced by as debuffs, even though he gets damage out of building as. effectively making him immune to the debuff. they also fixed that.

i think its similar in case of graves. he benefits from gigantic hits to lifesteal from and gets multiple cleaver stacks with the bullets, but doesnt suffer the downsides.

Warlord ZudaneAug 26, 20162 votes

Thornmail, like LS, is based off of damage dealt/received, not the number of hits. Thornmail isn't a return x damage on hit, it's returning X% damage dealt.

Edit: So I was slightly off, it also includes a damage of 25% of bonus armor per hit or on-hit effect. I still have to side with the top comment here, which is that it really doesn't matter how many bullets connect - it was still a single attack and is treated as such. You wouldn't say "I got shot 30 times (buckshot) by a shotgun, but it was only one shell" you'd just flat out say you got shot once.

WimbledofyAug 26, 20167 votes

it's actually both.

Critmaster GarenAug 26, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Zudane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u2wv0b4w,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-26T20:52:04.383+0000)

Thornmail, like LS, is based off of damage dealt/received, not the number of hits. Thornmail isn't a return x damage on hit, it's returning X% damage dealt.

its both. they changed it like a year ago, or more? dont remember when exactly, but the item has been shit ever since. unless you manage to stack like 600 armor.

Chad Te EmployeeAug 27, 20161 votes

its not shit if you go against a yi/assassin yasuo. Since yi only aa's and has q. Yasuo's q is treated as a basic attack and his e does shit damage

Warlord ZudaneAug 28, 20161 votes

Okay, so I forgot about the 25% armor damage being separate from the returned damage on-hit. Without any armor besides thornmail, it deals 25 magic damage + 15% physical damage received (before calculations, so you take less once the armor is calculated - it it armor).

On a 100 damage hit, that is 25 magic damage + 15 physical damage, for a total of 40 combined damage returned. Now this is ARMOR that deals 40 damage back on a 100 physical damage hit (55 on 200 damage, 70 on 300 damage, etc). That's without including the other armor you should be using with this.

And you're saying that ARMOR that DEALS DAMAGE is shit? For someone building tank it's pretty good, mostly early game or against someone with fast attacks and weaker damage. But honestly.. It's armor with bonus damage, treat it as such.

It Hertz When IPAug 26, 20163 votes

How do I phrase this... No. For the purpose of on hit EFFECTS such as BoRK procs and reflected instances of damage, one shotgun blast is counted as one AA.

The reason why he procs multiple stacks of Cleaver is because Cleaver stacks on "Physical Damage" instances, NOT autoattacks. It's the same reason why Tiamat items can proc it on multiple targets at once. The reason why he gets large amounts of LS from his shotgun blasts is even simpler; it's because each blast deals a lot of damage. Not all on the same target, but a lot of damage.

crippler38Aug 27, 20161 votes

so like ashe right?

Sightless66Aug 27, 20161 votes

doesnt it though?

No, it definitely doesn't. He does not get multiple instances of on-hit effects. If he's using something like Blade of the Ruined King, he applies it once per attack, no matter how many bullets hit. Same thing with any other on-hit item you want to use. On-hit effects are only applied once, because he only attacked once. Thornmail only applied once, because he only attacked once.

Lifesteal isn't technically an on-hit effect. You can see this in how it doesn't have any effects amplified by phantom-hit, and how it can lifesteal off of other physical on-hit effects. He gets lifesteal based on the amount of damage he does with his autoattack, just like every other carry. He has no special interactions with it.

Only Play DariusAug 26, 20167 votes

Not really, each bullet is a separate instance of physical damage, but not an on-hit or on-attack effect, and Cleaver is triggered only on physical damage. Ashe can also instantly max Black Cleaver once her Q is up.

SeenanAug 26, 20165 votes

I'd love for him to get smashed by thornmail or Annie's E 2-4 times. I hate what the rework turned him into. Even the pre-rework, I liked better. Way less bursty.

GULAG 4 UAug 26, 20164 votes

Agree. They should fix it to be acting this wa, 10/10

NiaphimAug 26, 20162 votes

As if thornmail was effective in the first place

Papa SlothyAug 26, 20165 votes

someone on the boards suggested it apply grievous wounds to stop adc's lifestealing through the damage

Only Play DariusAug 26, 20161 votes

Doubtful Riot will do that, they reworked Thornmail in that way so that it would be less oppressive to ADC's and better than before against mages. Even though no one with half a brain would buy an item with no MR or HP to help defend against mages.

Papa SlothyAug 27, 20161 votes

yea, but I feel like it needs some adc fighting power now more than ever

NebuulAug 27, 20162 votes

Black cleaver has special coding. It looks at neither on hit nor spell effects. Instead, out just looks for physical damage done owned by your character.

Notice that Sivir applies cleaver to secondary targets from her W, even though that applies nothing.

Graves' bullets are the same thing. Since they do damage individually, you get more stacks from cleaver.

WheatloafAug 27, 20161 votes

TL;DR

Cleaver shreds on physical damage application, Thornmail reflects damage on attack. Graves' bullets are multiple instances of physical damage, but only one attack, thus they apply multiple stacks for cleaver, but do not take multiple instances of thornmail damage.

doombotMECHAAug 27, 20161 votes

well I mean, it's the same amount of damage blocked, ain't it? if you have one cake and put icing on half of it, or if you cut the cake into four slices and put cake on half of those, it's still the same amount of cake covered, right?

Sightless66Aug 27, 20161 votes

Not really. Cleaver is based off on individual instances of physical damage, but doesn't care at all about number of attacks. Thornmail is based on number of attacks, but doesn't care at all about the number of instances of physical damage. Graves only attacks once, but has multiple bullets, so he has multiple sources of physical damage. It's similar to how Ashe will stack Cleaver instantly if she attacks someone while she has her Q up. It's not multiple attacks, just multiple instances of damage in one attack. It makes sense that thornmail isn't going to have any unique interaction against them just because they are applying multiple instances of physical damage.

If he was going to apply thornmail passive for each bullet hit, we'd need to start giving him on-hit effects like BoRK for each bullet hit as well. Wouldn't be fair otherwise. If we're going to let each bullet count as a seperate attack, then we have to give him all the benefits that go with that too. Frankly though, I think it sounds like a dumb concept. He attacks once, so let him get the benefits and punishments for one attack. There's no need for a special rule.

Bladerunner7777Aug 27, 20161 votes

complaining about Graves in August

Jeanne fan clubAug 27, 20161 votes

Lowkey black cleaver tip, corki's E practically instaprocs all the black cleaver stacks... thought I would leave this here in a black cleaver thread. Waiting to see corkis playrate skyrocket now.