For real, passive does to much damage, Q is on too short of a cool down for her kit, parry is just broken in blocking damage/stuns and returning stuns, AA reset for split pushing and free crit, ult that deals a huge percent of true damage of enemy health while giving a huge heal if you get all four vitals
Too much, reduce please
five oh tree 26 votesA shitty post that offers no solutions, uses buzzwords, and focuses solely on strengths without mentioning weaknesses.
Boards logic is to upvote it though, gotta love it.
Legacy Hydralpha3 votesAgreed. Instead of blind bitchin', we should try to find a solution, while taking in consideration Fiora's weaknesses.
Skins Project6 votesWhat?
On gameplay boards?
Are you mad!
PePsiLemoNN4 votesWeaknesses?
Captain Aishi1 voteshere are possible solutions:
1- Make her Q reset CD only if she hits a vital, that way she has a window of weakness if you outmaneuver her 2- Remove the attack speed slow from her W, at least if she doesn't block a spell with it, she shouldn't be rewarded for being outplayed 3- Remove the MS slow from her E, she's mobile enough that she doesn't need it and it makes it impossible to play her vital game with her 4- Remove the movespeed she gets when she ults so she can't just cast it to run down immobile melees who become entirely helpless
AgeOfTheMage1 votesHer q cooldown, if she doesn't have cdr is actully pretty high, just gotta make sure she doesn't hit anything with it. The attack speed isn't needed, I don't mind them removing that, the ms slow idk about, you can't remove the ult ms, what if she ult's someone like tryndamere and he can just dash away without her bein able to catch up.
Zerenza15 votesYou lost me when you used the word "Free" "Broken" "Huge" "Huge" explain to me, as a person who has never played as or against fiora, why she's so broken my good friend. Without using Hyperbole's(Exaggerating)
Joseraph3 votesI'm pretty salty about this as a Trundle/Jax main but:
Her passive procs deal a lot of damage, especially when she builds AD, supplemented by the fact that they're true damage. They also give her fight sustain and immediate disengage/follow up with the MS boost. Also, having a .5 second refresh time, they're easy to follow up on.
Her Parry is pretty strong with negating abilities, though I personally don't think its too much of a problem.
Her E with its auto-attack reset, slow, and crit upon next attack gives her a ton of dueling potential even if she isn't hitting Vitals, and makes it hard as hell to escape from her giving that she has another slow(potentially a stun), and constantly refreshing speed from Vitals and Phage passive.
Her ult lets her hit 4 vitals in rapid succession (or 5, because you can hit a Vital then ult immediately for the 4 vitals) and gives her a a massive heal field if certain conditions are met, which doesn't make much sense.
In terms of a skirmisher she's kinda silly. Every skirmisher (except Riven and maybe Ekko) has a weak early game into just about any matchup, but when she's put against a tank she becomes a GIGANTIC lane bully. Every skirmisher I'm aware of can't do anything nearly similar. This means she beats you in lane as a tank, and absolutely rends you mid and late game. (See Echo Fox vs FlyQuest Game 2, one of the shoutcasters even says Balls' Fiora was doing 64% max health true damage to Looper's Galio later on in the game, and calls her THE S class top laner right now, only maybe contested by Kennen.)
She also has an unparalleled 1v1 game against other hypercarries due to the fact that she has a cripple on her W, meaning that that her splitpush is UNHOLY. Going back the the same Echo Vs Fly game, Balls nearly carries his team on it, being able to just shove the lane with Ravenous, sustain Looper's damage, and just mash their turrets with her high AD+E with Balls hounding on her. At one point Balls even 100-30's Looper after not taking some turret shots + a Galio Q.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI'm pretty salty about this as a Trundle/Jax main but:
Her passive procs deal a lot of damage, especially when she builds AD, supplemented by the fact that they're true damage. They also give her fight sustain and immediate disengage/follow up with the MS boost. Also, having a .5 second refresh time, they're easy to follow up on.
They're actually a lot harder to continually hit if you play someone with mobility. Riven can Q dance and juke with E. I've seen Riven nearly 100-0 a Fiora at lvl 2 because they kept Q dancing Fiora's Vitals.
Her Parry is pretty strong with negating abilities, though I personally don't think its too much of a problem.
Her E with its auto-attack reset, slow, and crit upon next attack gives her a ton of dueling potential even if she isn't hitting Vitals, and makes it hard as hell to escape from her giving that she has another slow(potentially a stun), and constantly refreshing speed from Vitals and Phage passive.
Compare it to actual attack speed steroids (or hell, AD/AS carries like Yi) and you'll see it massively falls short. Only when used in conjunction with her actual kit for a ton of auto attack resets is it actually effective. It's low cooldowns mean's it not bad, though.
Her ult lets her hit 4 vitals in rapid succession (or 5, because you can hit a Vital then ult immediately for the 4 vitals) and gives her a a massive heal field if certain conditions are met, which doesn't make much sense.
It doesn't let her auto hit them, she has to walk around you and shit... especially since she usually Q's in to engage, meaning 2 seconds till her next Q.
In terms of a skirmisher she's kinda silly. Every skirmisher (except Riven and maybe Ekko) has a weak early game into just about any matchup, but when she's put against a tank she becomes a GIGANTIC lane bully. Every skirmisher I'm aware of can't do anything nearly similar. This means she beats you in lane as a tank, and absolutely rends you mid and late game. (See Echo Fox vs FlyQuest Game 2, one of the shoutcasters even says Balls' Fiora was doing 64% max health true damage to Looper's Galio later on in the game, and calls her THE S class top laner right now, only maybe contested by Kennen.)
Yasuo, Jax, and Tryndamere all have rather even lanes, Trynd have a very strong early.
Fiora cannot lane bully most tanks, only the ones who she counters via mobility, but every other lane bully is the same (read: Sion).
She also has an unparalleled 1v1 game against other hypercarries due to the fact that she has a cripple on her W, meaning that that her splitpush is UNHOLY. Going back the the same Echo Vs Fly game, Balls nearly carries his team on it, being able to just shove the lane with Ravenous, sustain Looper's damage, and just mash their turrets with her high AD+E with Balls hounding on her. At one point Balls even 100-30's Looper after not taking some turret shots + a Galio Q.
Galio should've bullied Fiora out early game - I'm not sure who the junglers were, but they should've kept vision up top lane so Galio could play aggressive. Galio is much stronger than Fiora early game, and will only lose a duel if Fiora ults. But he can easily bully out Fiora with Q's.
Also, you haven't mentioned her weaknesses. Most major of which being her incredibly low range and bad gapcloser, meaning she is completely ineffective against the backline.
Joseraph1 votesI don't 100% disagree on most of your counterpoints, the point here was to state why she's strong. The thing is, most of her strengths heavily outweighs her weaknesses at the moment.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI don't 100% disagree on most of your counterpoints, the point here was to state why she's strong. The thing is, most of her strengths heavily outweighs her weaknesses at the moment.
Well, skirmishers like Fiora are really strong in skirmishes, and those are far more common in the clownfest known as soloque.
Joseraph1 votesTrue. I just feel like she's the hardest to play against right now (Excluding Yasuo into projectile teams)
Asayake 5150glow1 votesTrue. I just feel like she's the hardest to play against right now (Excluding Yasuo into projectile teams)
She is pretty tough to fight, but definitely doable. Part of it is that fighting her often involves good coordination with your team (if you aren't the one laning against her, or if you lose/go even in lane as you will get outscaled if you went even), which is kinda rare.
Troll for Trump4 votesHer bullying is mainly Q spam on vitals.
You're supposed to block it by walking behind minions, but when you do, due to her Q prioritizing champions, it still hits you through the waves.
Meaning, to fully avoid it, you have to completely avoid your own minions, and therefore, the enemy minions, denying you cs and xp.
Since FIora is meant to be a lategame hypercarry duelist/skirmisher, she should not be bullying or zoning champions in the early game.
She should be using her Q to last hit against most matchups, as opposed to poking/zoning/being aggressive.
She does have an attack speed slow, which have been removed from almost every updated or reworked champ. It's probably meant to encourage dueling, but is obnoxious nonetheless.
fuffychan11 votes
passive gives her more movespeed then Jinx in teamfights, Q is an AOE nuke that slows and also heals her, W is a huge heal with no cooldown, E is a AOE silencing AND snare field, and R is literally a global "f--- you" by healing her entire team all over the map
See I can list out a champions abilities too
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesAnd you perfectly showcased why she got nerfed many times+the small reworks and why everyone permabans her when she gets even slightly meta. Additionally she is one of the few reasons why we NEED grievous wounds in this game.
fuffychan2 votesYou completely missed the point.
Joseraph1 votesExcept only one is strong right not
Asayake 5150glow9 votesFor real, passive does to much damage, Q is on too short of a cool down for her kit, parry is just broken in blocking damage/stuns and returning stuns, AA reset for split pushing and free crit, ult that deals a huge percent of true damage of enemy health while giving a huge heal if you get all four vitals
Too much, reduce please
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things.
In a kit with 5 abilities.
I see no problem.
420 grams8 votesShe has such clear counter play and her damage isn't really that strong until late.
Death by Glamour4 votesWell enlighten us and she is a monster late game
420 grams11 votesPassive: this is most of her damage. Protect your vitals in fights and you decrease her damage output immensely. Q: if it misses (like it's used as an escape or you used a dash to dodge it) it goes on a long cooldown. Early game it does little damage and is mostly used to poke a vital. W: only stuns if you throw a hard cc at it. Has a long cooldown that leaves plenty of room to engage. It is also very easy to dodge. E: the damage comes from the second auto. Disengage the fight quickly and she can't utilize the damage. R: protect vitals. Disengage or keep one alive to deny her heal. Denying her heal in a team fight denies the only team fight oriented thing in her kit. Items: she buys lifesteal often, so executioners calling, morellos, and ignite all counter her sustain. Other: she's not a champion you can just face roll into. You have to actively be trying to out fight her and make her not get full potential out of her kit. She has no wave clear or team fighting capabilities. Yeah, late game she'll destroy anyone in a 1 v 1. That's her job as a fighter. Her kit is balanced around that.
Hope this helps!
General Esdeath 3 votes"Protect yourself and vitals from her Q dash that auto aims at the vitals"
Got it
"Don't let her hit you or minions with Q"
Uh huh
"If she Q's to run away you can fight her"
I see
-completely ignores W can slow your move and attack speed without blocking anything and the fact it can block anything including ults and ignite/exhaust-
"Disengage after you're slowed and don't use CC"
Interesting
"Don't let her hit vitals"
Except there's now 4 on me in every direction
420 grams5 votesI don't think you know how quotations are used, so I don't expect you to understand a complicated game like this
Brain Errör 4044 votesWhile not grammatically structured, he used the quotations correctly. I'm not sure you know how quotations are used.
KiIIJoy1 votes"Protect yourself and vitals from her Q dash that auto aims at the vitals"
Got it
"Don't let her hit you or minions with Q"
Uh huh
"If she Q's to run away you can fight her"
I see
-completely ignores W can slow your move and attack speed without blocking anything and the fact it can block anything including ults and ignite/exhaust-
"Disengage after you're slowed and don't use CC"
Interesting
"Don't let her hit vitals"
Except there's now 4 on me in every direction
If you just hug a wall, one of those vitals wont proc and she cant get her ult healing.
Her W has to hit you for it to slow you/your attack speed, move to the side. The reason a Fiora uses a W is to try to predict your CC or try to slow you. You cant complain about her W much because its a prediction on her part as well. if she misses it or wastes it, that's a good 16+s of downtime for you to punish her. She's a very antinoob champion in the sense that you cant just spam your abilities or fight her however/whenever you want, shes an engaging champion to play against.
Its not about not letting her Qs hit you, its about playing around that. You know she's gonna do it if you have a frontal vital, play the game and F her up. The damage is meh early game, shes not nearly as bad as she used to be.
Another point about the W, is if its blocking an exhaust/ignite then that's borderline your own damn vault, aside from the initial start of the W its very telegraphed. If you used it right as she cast it, then its her making a prediction. When you play Fiora, you get a "feel" for when things are gonna happen. And obviously you'll be wrong sometimes but if you're on top of someone, they're not focusing on outplaying you, but not dying/stopping you. They panic rather than calm down and because of that they get outplayed.
For example there was a game where I denied malz his ult on me 3 times in a row, because each time I jumped on him was under his tower. 1 Q, used one E, used my hydra and Parried. Which was precisely the time he used ult. the third time I used parry immediately after I used Q because I figured he wouldn't try to hold his ult that time, and I was right again. Its a mechanic that rewards for prediction and punishes poor players.
General Esdeath 1 votesIf I stand against a wall I'm immobile, it's hard to miss her W on a melee champ. Her Q doesn't do much but a vital sure does, and Q aims for them.
KiIIJoy1 votesIf I stand against a wall I'm immobile, it's hard to miss her W on a melee champ. Her Q doesn't do much but a vital sure does, and Q aims for them.
the damage her Q does when it lands on a vital is equal to that of a teemo blind. And because of how vitals work its arguable going to happen less than a teemo blind. if you stand against a wall youre immobile sure but it denies her the healing that would keep her alive, and W is not hard to dodge on a meele champ. Most top lane melee have some form of movement. Renekton, Shen, Irelia, Riven, ect.
General Esdeath 1 votesBut her ult brings out 4 vitals, that means she can guarantee a hit on 3 if I stand against a wall. Each vital heals.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesthe damage her Q does when it lands on a vital is equal to that of a teemo blind. And because of how vitals work its arguable going to happen less than a teemo blind. if you stand against a wall youre immobile sure but it denies her the healing that would keep her alive, and W is not hard to dodge on a meele champ. Most top lane melee have some form of movement. Renekton, Shen, Irelia, Riven, ect.
Well, Teemo blind hurts rather a lot, bad comparison.
Mizaya5 votesMy problem with her is not so much her damage, but that she buys hydra + Death's dance + BT and from there on just becomes absolutely stupid to deal with due to her healing her entire health bar in one rotation of abilities, and requires at least 2 if not 3 people to deal with on her own.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesMy problem with her is not so much her damage, but that she buys hydra + Death's dance + BT and from there on just becomes absolutely stupid to deal with due to her healing her entire health bar in one rotation of abilities, and requires at least 2 if not 3 people to deal with on her own.
That's kinda the point, unless you're another skirmisher.
You're supposed to bring Fiora into a teamfight. She does far worse in those.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesAh so either you ignore fiora who tears down your base or bring your entire team to stop her so you lose every objective on the map. Nice champ design.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOr bring your team to Baron, fight the 5v4. If Fiora comes, she's practically useless in a teamfight, so basically a 5v4.5. If not, I'm sure you can outpush her with Baron, and someone can back to stop her.
Or go to whatever lane she's at and start seiging it, following her around the map.
JustARivenMain3 votesOnly problem to me is the 3 auto resets for 5 autos at like level 7 with Tiamate, which ends up being like 900 damage in less than 2 seconds
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOnly problem to me is the 3 auto resets for 5 autos at like level 7 with Tiamate, which ends up being like 900 damage in less than 2 seconds
Fiora has like 120 AD with Phage + Tiamat, 3 auto resets would do literally 360 damage because none of her auto attack resets actually have any AD scaling, they're just autos.
Add a Q and you'd get ~480 damage, the base damage balancing out the not quite 100% bonus AD scaling (it won't be max rank yet).
More with Fervor, but only ~70 more, nowhere near 900.
JustARivenMain2 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzk9QyvK,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-06-07T00:06:51.485+0000)
Fiora has like 120 AD with Phage + Tiamat, 3 auto resets would do literally 360 damage because none of her auto attack resets actually have any AD scaling, they're just autos.
Add a Q and you'd get ~480 damage, the base damage balancing out the not quite 100% bonus AD scaling (it won't be max rank yet).
More with Fervor, but only ~70 more, nowhere near 900.
120 ad once, Q for like 150, then auto, 2, E for 120 again, Tiamat for like 90, auto for guaranteed crit for 120%, like 140 3. 590, not counting vitals, with Fervor it probably goes up to 520/530.. if you get hit by a vital it's like an extra 40-80 damage, about 600 in 1.5 seconds if you're quick.. then that's not counting after that burst what she can do.
EDIT: Not even considering the extra 20-40 damage per proc of Tiamat from those 5 autos AND her Q
AgeOfTheMage3 votesThe main things that broke her were the changes to deaths dance and ga. She's fine where she is, it's just the items that riot decided to change(still don't understand why ga got ad) also pointing out a champs kit isn't helping ._.
gp: has "free" true damage that can't miss. has "free" spammable q poke from a distance that grants bonus gold has a "free" heal and anti cc has a "free" aoe slow with %armor reduction and a "free" aoe slow that does damage and is global.
OyddAWqJ5r2 votesI have only seen 2 Fioras in the past month and I beat her pretty one-sidedly as Galio even though I was constantly getting vital procced and proccing her stun and the other as Yorick where my Q did the same damage as her Q vital proc and with proper spacing was always able to counter-land it on her Q's.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.
Asayake 5150glow3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzk9QyvK,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-06-06T23:54:45.148+0000)
I have only seen 2 Fioras in the past month and I beat her pretty one-sidedly as Galio even though I was constantly getting vital procced and proccing her stun and the other as Yorick where my Q did the same damage as her Q vital proc and with proper spacing was always able to counter-land it on her Q's.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.
I think that's just because Galio is really, really strong.
And Fiora doesn't really wanna take extended trades against Yorick, especially if you have Ghouls up.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesYeah definitely not extended trades. But even the 1-hit trades were in my favor even with her best case scenario Q-vitals.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesAh, because your version of a trade is far different from hers.
Your version of a 1-hit trade is just a Q, or an auto Q.
Fiora's short trades should be exclusively Q+auto+E+Tiamat combo's, otherwise she should Q from far enough away so that you can't hit her back.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesI have no clue what you're saying. When you position correctly she can't just "Q from outside your range" ever. If your vital is in front of you just don't be near her if you don't want it popped or be prepared to counter it (hint: if you can't counter it, go with option 1).
And the "short trade" thing costs a ton of mana cuz E essentially doubles the dip into her mana pool for an extra 2 autos at faster speed.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzk9QyvK,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-07T23:54:57.555+0000)
I have no clue what you're saying. When you position correctly she can't just "Q from outside your range" ever. If your vital is in front of you just don't be near her if you don't want it popped or be prepared to counter it (hint: if you can't counter it, go with option 1).
Yeah, but sometimes people don't do that. Also, who said she was proccing a Vital? She would prefer to, but she doesn't have to.
And the "short trade" thing costs a ton of mana cuz E essentially doubles the dip into her mana pool for an extra 2 autos at faster speed.
Yeah, but it's well worth it. You don't use mana for much else anyway.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesWaste of Mana otherwise. Q doesn't do much damage on its own and draws minion aggro which causes her to take more damage than she deals.
And though yes she doesn't use much mana that's because she only uses Q. Using E and W every trade depletes her mana pool quickly which is why she needs to play around Vitals to be effective. You only use E for complete all ins. I'd argue W is too but W is actually pretty good as a trade tool since it can negate some nasty stuff while also being fast and blocking minion damage. E however, is just excess strain on the mana pool.
And even when she does E it doesn't give her much. 2 slightly faster basic attacks that you have to be in their face to basic attack them for which is a good 2-3 seconds where you're taking damage as well. Not worth.
zaire902 votesJust listing her kit isn't really an arguement my man you gotta add more to this than listing the ability and saying what it's used for and then claiming that's broken.
Mecha Incognito2 votesInstead of "hurr she strong nerf", instead play around with plausible changes.
Passive: Unlike most people I find it's mostly fine. It could do with having a slightly longer amount of time before reapplying a vital during the earlier stages of the game.
Q: Needs to be rewarded for only proccing vitals if it's to keep the very generous prioritising of them, and more punished if not. An overall CD reduction, but with the cooldown refund only applying to vitals would be much fairer to play against.
For example - Currently Lv 1 Q is a 16 second cooldown, reduced by 60% (to 6.4 seconds) for hitting anything. It could be changed to a 12 second cooldown, reduced by 60% (to 5.2 seconds) only when hitting vitals.
W: Reduce it's duration to 0.5s. If it's going to have such high counter/outplay potential, it should have a short duration to really test timing/skill. Also reduce or remove the attack speed slow.
E: No problems with her E.
R: No problems with her R.
Hitting one or more of these problems can put her in a healthier spot, without just simply removing damage (which is usually, in my eyes, the laziest method).
Edit: Just changed some numbers I got very wrong on the Q. I'm tired.
IronwallJackson1 votesReducing her W duration to .5 would make it impossible to use for high-latency players. Reflex-based balancing is almost never a good thing
Mecha Incognito1 votesThat's fair, it's a factor I didn't take into account. Though should high-latency have such an impact on balance?
IronwallJackson1 votesIf Riot intends to keep League's overall accessibility level low, things like reflexes, latency, and pc performance have to be kept in mind, even when it rubs against matters of balance.
It's the sports thing, where people can have the superstar dream because they can also play the same game as some pro they admire. Accessibility is key for the long-term viability of this game.
