Am I the only one who thinks the range you need to break Leblancs chain is way to far?

awdaf·Jan 30, 2017·276 votes·19,526 views

I was playing Ekko the other day, and I got hit by her chain, she wasn't in melee range when she hit me, she was only about an ADC Auto Attack range away, and I took a couple steps, Ed, and I was STILL, an E away from getting to the line to break the chain. Why? Why is that so long?

AND

If I'm going to talk about Leblanc, why are we rewarding her for just standing still? She Ws in, and just waits while looking at you to Q you, and you die of her burst, there isn't even an out play to it, it doesn't make any sense.

Edit: I find it funny that a moderator or a Riot employee is deleting my comments toward the Reds post, so I'll put it here. (Deleted 3 times)

http://imgur.com/gNomjBv

264 Comments

Nameless VoiceJan 30, 2017109 votes

http://i.imgur.com/8Xd1VcP.gif[/img]

Cosmic WarperJan 30, 201732 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gZcBNVGn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-30T02:02:52.856+0000)

http://i.imgur.com/8Xd1VcP.gif[/img]

That's beyond dumb....

TheEdgeOfDestinyJan 30, 201715 votes

The video is deceiving.

Nameless VoiceJan 30, 201718 votes

Videos of LeBlanc always are.

Nameless VoiceJan 30, 201724 votes

I think the problem is that the tether is a fixed length, regardless of what distance she was at when she hit you with it.

The fixed-length tether makes some sense for the other champions with a tether, since they have no mobility and will generally be using them from close to maximum range. In LeBlanc's case, she tends to dash right into her target's face and then use the chains, and the range is long enough that she can still pop back to her staring location without breaking it.

My solution to the problem would be to give the tether a length of a little above the distance between herself and her target when it hit the target. It shouldn't be too easy to escape, but it should break if she snaps back or if her opponent somehow puts a lot of distance between them (e.g. by dashing/flashing away.)

One problem is that it might be a little unintuitive for the LB player.

WoonStruckJan 30, 20174 votes

Could also make it so the closer she is when she lands the skill-shot, the shorter the max tether range is.

Nameless VoiceJan 30, 201722 votes

That was what I said?

An Undead bratJan 30, 20178 votes

Could also make it so the closer she is when she lands the skill-shot, the shorter the max tether range is.

Velzard of KozJan 30, 20176 votes

That would be too big nerf, tbh. I have better idea. Could also make it so the closer she is when she lands the skill-shot, the shorter the max tether range is.

RavenMagusJan 30, 20176 votes

That sounds terrible. I'd prefer it if they just reduced the tether range if you're closer when you land it.

ArakadiaJan 31, 20173 votes

Well what if they did that, but compensated with this buff:

The tether range is reduced the closer your land the spell.

RavenMagusJan 31, 20172 votes

That's actually a nerf, though! What they need to do is just make the tether range scale in relation to your distance from them, so you get a longer tether if you're further away.

i am priusJan 31, 20174 votes

U r gay

LordGeovanniJan 31, 20171 votes

That is actually not what you said you said something implying that the point of impact and determines the tether range for both leblanc and the person fighting her from the point of impact when the tether connected. Not that the range to break theater is to be shortened when she is close from her. While this sounds good this actually doesnt solve any problems as you land max range e then w in you still have the same range you need to go to break the tether.

Nameless VoiceJan 31, 20171 votes

A LeBlanc who hits you from max range and then jumps in to stand in melee range of you for the duration of the tether is a LeBlanc who is putting herself at actual risk of reprisal. Sounds good to me.

Plus, it is a skillshot, and quite possible to dodge when fired from maximum range. It's only when she fires it from point-blank range and is almost guaranteed to hit it that the insane tether length feels most unfair.

nm1010Jan 31, 20172 votes

So you basically want Leblanc to hit a narrow skillshot through minions with no waveclear (since I need w up to have any chance of getting the snare off)?

This idea is the least plausible nerf idea I have heard, though it is creative at least.

MalignisJan 30, 20171 votes

Except most champions with similar tethers without mobility have them as targeted casts, Lb and Kled for example both have mobility and their tethers are both skillshots that you can dodge. Champions like Morgana or Karma have tethers that are targeted but both lack a dash in their kit. The range on all of these tethers is pretty forgiving though and most champions have a way to keep you in the range. Karma can speed herself up and slow you, Morgana can snare you for the duration of the tether and LB/Kled can dash to keep in range.

That all being said Karma and Morgana are both mages with shorter tether ranges, but they also don't have to land a skillshot to place it on you in the first place, the only counterplay to their spells is to run away where with LB you can avoid the skillshot and run away if you fail to do so. I think if you want her tether range to be shorter then you should be fine with her having it as a targeted ability and having running away as the sole counterplay which really just takes away the uniqueness of the spell and the ability to outplay the champion.

nm1010Jan 30, 20171 votes

Morgana's is the longest tether in the game I am fairly sure, it is 50 units longer than both Karma and LeBlanc (both of which are the same range).

13900 EssenceJan 30, 20175 votes

I feel like kled's tether is harder to hit than LB's, LB's seems to snap to you even if its pretty far off, almost like a hook.

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 30, 201720 votes

We were experimenting with some range changes for this patch, but opted not to go with them and go for damage nerfs, despite testing quite well. The idea was that if we are pushing LB towards more of a kite mage direction, we would retain long change ranges and have them do less damage, but if we were pursuing more of an assassin direction, we would probably shorten the chain range quite a bit (as that would allow us to give her more damage).

DessemJan 30, 201782 votes

The idea was that if we are pushing LB towards more of a kite mage direction

Isn't LB an assassin, though? Why push her more towards a kite mage direction instead of an assassin direction?

DrCyanideJan 30, 20179 votes

To be more like their waifu Ahri

KeevalroyJan 31, 20175 votes

You say that, I see why, but I still firmly believe they ruined her with that retarded Q speed update.

MrHaZeYoJan 31, 20175 votes

You mean killed her or just made her stronger with them?

She needed something. The Charm DMG Amp was personnally my favorite after they nerfed being hit by multipal Fox Fires. I'm ok with the Q speed though.

KeevalroyJan 31, 20179 votes

The Kiss of Death mechanic was the best thing they ever did to her, and rather than slightly raising her damage to compensate DFG removal, they added random, unnecessary movement speed to her most spammed ability to make her even more mobile. So now, the period where she was weakest and most vulnerable to jungle pressure was essentially removed. What Riot still doesn't want to understand is that mobility creeping everyone to match their newer abominations only reduces League's health with every update. They made it impossible for her to be both healthy and balanced with this update.

You know what I hate the most about it though? The fact that this Kiss of Death was PERFECT for her. As a seductress who lured people one at a time into a false sense of security or else waited for them to let their guard down, and then murdered them, her story reflected her gameplay magnificently. But she would be absent from the pro scene without DFG, so instead of keeping up with the then-current design philosophy of designing to a "theme," they elected to make her more flashy for the spectator event...

And then there's the fact that she wasn't that hard to begin with (Ahri is my favorite champion keep in mind) and they took away the one thing that made for a semi skillful lane match. You were punished for spamming, and rewarded for waiting for an opening and then hitting your skillshots - not anymore, now you just spam and run around like an idiot. Who needs skill when you can just mindlessly throw abilities around and dodge skillshots with your speed?

This "compensation" was disgraceful.

EvenstarJan 31, 20172 votes

Gonna have to stop you right there. Ahri has always been a kite-centric mage. This is accentuated time after time with her playstyle. Her identity of a seductress is not just tied to one ability, but her entire kit/design too. She lures you in to a trap, with or without a kiss. You seem to lack an understanding of the changes, what Riot was pushing for was a mage adept at playing around with her enemies, rather than entirely focusing on one major defining ability. Even her splash art depicts her luring you in to the woods, as she retreats deeper. This ties in with the speed boost from her Q.

And I think you're being unfair by saying the Kiss of Death was the best change that had happened to her, because you personally liked it. But S3 Ahri had the most divided fanbase because of the change in her playstyle. She went from an aoe teamfight mage to becoming a singular target focused assassin, all because DFG made her that way. If any, Charm was a pick skill, but it was not the most defining part of her kit. Her ultimate was the glue that binds all of her abilities together, she is renowned for her ability to outplay and kite you.

Either way, there seems to be a lack of understanding in Ahri's identity as a temptress. You mentioned luring people in to a false sense of security. Her dmg amp didn't accomplish that. In fact, what it only meant was that if you were caught in her kiss, she had a guaranteed chance of taking you out. On the other hand, with the changes she currently has, an Ahri does not have the potential to 100-0 you any more, she will leave you with a portion of health and forced to retreat if she doesn't successfully take you out. This is where the opportune moment arrives for her opponents. A) You either trade and punish her, B) you walk away and miss your opportunity. If you successfully trade and punish her to your own health level, this is where the luring dynamics come in to play. You are inclined to go after her because you know Ahri is low. For Ahri herself, it is now a window of opportunity for her to play around with her opponents. This is where enemies are lured in to a false sense of security, because they are under the impression that they can go after Ahri.

Her DFG Charm did not create balanced moments of high or low. It was a feast or famine thing, land her Charm, you were guaranteed to die. Miss her Charm, she was guaranteed to die. Riot does not want a binary interaction. And going by their standards of healthy gameplay, Charm took up too much power budget in her kit. Because it had a 20% dmg amp, every other ability of hers had to be toned down in strength. With the power budget gone, Ahri gained utility in her Q rather than a straight up damage buff. This meant that skilled players were rewarded for landing consistent Qs and E, whilst bad Ahri players didn't overwhelm others with her damage. Going in to her identity, it also ties in very nicely with her fox theme. Foxes are known for their slippery and cunning intellect, Riot wanted to achieve that accurate representation of a fox.

No matter how cunning a fox can be though, if you set the right traps or corner the fox in a group, that fox is set to be caught. And this is rightfully so of Ahri too. Coordinate your ganks or use your crowd controls at the right moment and Ahri is destined to fall. She might be able to play with you, but it also means you can outplay her in her own game. All of this creates so much more healthy and interesting moments for Ahri and her prey, compared to the DFG Charm.

As much as a seductress meant seducing you with her beauty or sex appeal, it is not the only the way to lure someone. Creating a moment of false fragility also creates that moment of lure. No matter how you looked at it, whether Ahri lures you with her Charm or Orb, it is reflective of the fox's deceptiveness. And put side by side for comparison, the gameplay of a kite-centric mage certainly achieved that more frequently than a singular target burst-centric mage did.

As for LB, the decision to take her in a kite-centric role further allows her to utilize deception better and creates the fantasy of a deceiver ever so often. I'm sure she is still as frustrating to play against but further nerfs can be put out to ensure she is not a menace. But it's a bit unfair to say LB got the kite-mage treatment because Riot's mid lane mage poster is Ahri.

KeevalroyJan 31, 20175 votes

Gonna have to stop you right there. Ahri has always been a kite-centric mage. This is accentuated time after time with her playstyle. Her identity of a seductress is not just tied to one ability, but her entire kit/design too. She lures you in to a trap, with or without a kiss. You seem to lack an understanding of the changes, what Riot was pushing for was a mage adept at playing around with her enemies, rather than entirely focusing on one major defining ability.

I don't lack understanding in the slightest bit. This was done purely for the sake of the LCS since she would have been absent otherwise. Without the DFG burst, she would have lacked damage, so they arbitrarily added movement speed and painted it as "returning her to her kite mage roots" which is horseshit because she was a "kite mage" when comparatively, hardly anyone had mobility like her ult back then, so it made sense to label her as such. This was also a time when Riot was constantly pumping out random kits without looking into health, balance, or theme - they only started caring about theme later.

You seem to be forgetting too that some of the top Ahri players at the time of DFG's removal and her atrocious update didn't even use DFG in their builds. They still played her as a mage since even at that time of the damage amp, she was still the line between assassin and mage, able to be played as both depending on how you wanted to play - Riot pigeonholed her into one role just to make her look more flashy. That's all there is to it.

And I think you're being unfair by saying the Kiss of Death was the best change that had happened to her, because you personally liked it. But S3 Ahri had the most divided fanbase because of the change in her playstyle. **She went from an aoe teamfight mage to becoming a singular target focused assassin, all because DFG made her that way. **

Or maybe it's because being a mobile kite mage was overpowered and / or extremely frustrating to play against so they added the need to be a little more skillful when you play rather than senselessly throwing abilities behind you so Rylai's can proc?

If any, Charm was a pick skill, but it was not the most defining part of her kit. Her ultimate was the glue that binds all of her abilities together, she is renowned for her ability to outplay and kite you.

And it's all she's ever needed to stay safe. If you were caught pre-6 and died, that was your own damn fault for not understanding the matchup or the limits of your champion. Now it doesn't matter, just throw a Q and run to safety dodging skillshots and avoiding a gank. Oh yes, that was a very necessary change wasn't it Ahri haters? How do you all like not being able to touch her because of her asinine mobility on top of her 3 charge, relatively low CD ult? Feeling outskilled? No? It only makes mobility creep even more obvious you say? Hmm.

You mentioned luring people in to a false sense of security. Her dmg amp didn't accomplish that. In fact, what it only meant was that if you were caught in her kiss, she had a guaranteed chance of taking you out.

Yes, a guaranteed chance. Not a guaranteed kill, but a guaranteed chance. That's with DFG, which is not in the game anymore. Do I think she needed her Charm buffed to reflect as if DFG was still an item? Hell no! But it would have been better to slightly buff her damage, maybe slight reduction in CDs as well to balance it out making her a burst mage that could still benefit from being a kite mage with the extra base damage or scaling without having to rely on DFG.

On the other hand, with the changes she currently has, an Ahri does not have the potential to 100-0 you any more, she will leave you with a portion of health and forced to retreat if she doesn't successfully take you out.

Which shouldn't be a problem with her ludicrous movement speed, should it?

This is where the opportune moment arrives for her opponents. A) You either trade and punish her, B) you walk away and miss your opportunity. If you successfully trade and punish her to your own health level, this is where the luring dynamics come in to play. You are inclined to go after her because you know Ahri is low. For Ahri herself, it is now a window of opportunity for her to play around with her opponents. This is where enemies are lured in to a false sense of security, because they are under the impression that they can go after Ahri.

This was no different back then as well, but maybe you've forgotten. If she missed her charm, that's when you had a successful trade since the risk of her bursting you down was gone provided she didn't have DFG yet, it was on CD, not going that build route, or what have you. Likewise, if you had been playing passive all game, waiting for an opening, and they followed you, you had been watching how they move, how they prefer one side of the lane over another, you could probably guess where they were going to move, and then jump on them as they engaged and either scare them away, or hopefully get a kill out of their cockiness.

Her DFG Charm did not create balanced moments of high or low. It was a feast or famine thing, land her Charm, you were guaranteed to die. Miss her Charm, she was guaranteed to die.

I'll play the elitist card just this once - "Yeah, she was feast or famine if you sucked with Ahri..."

Riot does not want a binary interaction. **And going by their standards of healthy gameplay, Charm took up too much power budget in her kit. **

And yet... Azir Camille Ekko Fiora Fizz Kalista Kindred LeeSin Poppy Riven TahmKench Thresh Yasuo all have at the very least one ability that has way too much power loaded into it, most of them far more powerful than just a damage amp. Let's not pretend it was one of the worst offenders of a power budget crisis.

Because it had a 20% dmg amp, every other ability of hers had to be toned down in strength. With the power budget gone, Ahri gained utility in her Q rather than a straight up damage buff. This meant that skilled players were rewarded for landing consistent Qs and E, whilst bad Ahri players didn't overwhelm others with her damage. Going in to her identity, it also ties in very nicely with her fox theme. Foxes are known for their slippery and cunning intellect, Riot wanted to achieve that accurate representation of a fox.

Oh is that why it generally takes 1-5 games to reach a 53% average winrate with her? I'm sure there's a logical explanation other than simply "Riot dumbed down her kit so all you need to do is spam now." Using this argument, I also don't believe for a second that cunning intellect has been achieved through this update. That would probably mean knowing when to go in and when to stay back; now when did we have that?

As for LB, the decision to take her in a kite-centric role further allows her to utilize deception better and creates the fantasy of a deceiver ever so often. I'm sure she is still as frustrating to play against but further nerfs can be put out to ensure she is not a menace. But it's a bit unfair to say LB got the kite-mage treatment because Riot's mid lane mage poster is Ahri.

Deception...by running away. If this goes through, it would mean their goal is to push her into Shaco territory - by being an obnoxious asshole and having fun at the expense of others. Damage nerfs would be needed for the incoming utility, which means she's not going to do much damage, and will piss you off if you try and touch her. Very insightful design philosophy from a company that no longer cares about game health.

ProvidenceNoxJan 30, 201734 votes

This just in, Riot planned all along to make the assassins not assassins anymore.

Ariel the CruelJan 31, 201715 votes

Lissandra "poke mage"

Riot gets a bit funny with definitions sometimes.

Nightcrow TeoJan 31, 20171 votes

But Lissandra's Q is not that far... Must hit targets to further the range

Ariel the CruelFeb 1, 20172 votes

On release, Riot defined her as "a kiting poke mage." But she has the kit of an initiation tank.

That's why I hold her as the poster child for role confusion in Riot. XD

KeevalroyFeb 1, 20173 votes

poster child for role confusion

Urgot

IxtaliKingJan 31, 201710 votes

Lol LB a kite mage... coming from the same team which brought us generic generalist Enchanter Karma. On the bright side, at least they're communicating with you guys. We didn't get a say when they shifted Karma's battlemage identity to a basic Enchanter shield bot.

awdafJan 30, 201729 votes

"Pushing Leblanc towards more of a kite mage" Uhhhhh, what? Since when is Leblanc a kiter? The whole point of her kit is to jump into a fight and blow up one or two squishy targets and then get back out. The premise that one of her abilities (E), makes her a "Kiting" champion is flawed. Since when does 20% of a champions kit determine the main role they provide? Kiting is the wrong word, outplay is her sub identity, aka when you W back to your original spot and surprise burst your enemy with another round of burst that they weren't expecting. I don't know what's going on in the Riot conference room with a lot of the directions you are going with on some champions. It makes absolutely no sense. Get a new coffee machine, the beans are stale.

ErockandrollJan 30, 20174 votes

{quoted}

"Pushing Leblanc toward more of a kite mage" uhhhhh, what? Since when has her identity or even kit remotely based on kiting. The whole point of her kit is to blow a single or two targets up, and disappear, and then come back to deal more damage at key points in the fight. Her E is the only kiting ability she has, but it isn't what Leblanc is about, her chain is really only used if she needs to walk away from a gank or try and land it on a squishy if she missed her other spells. However, missing any of her spells now is seldom, as all she needs to do is W on to you, stand there or walk with you while you walk backward, and Q you to deal the burst damage. What kind of mentality are you guys working with in the Riot conference room? With all do respect, some of the directions you are going on a lot of champions make no sense, especially this statement on Leblanc. Kiting isn't the right word, out-playing someone by going back on your W and surprising them with another round of burst is her sub identity.

I think that Riot is having a tough time relegating AP Assassins. Especially those mage Assassins, that have that ability to make the opponent insta give, while still maintaining mage levels of waveclear.

The only other champ refereed to as a Kiting mage is Ahri. Who arguably lost the classification of an Assassin when they removed the damage AMP. Though given the strength of Leblanc's displacement, I'm not actually surprised if Riot had to chose nerf the damage in favor of maintaining her range.

It seem like Assassin can have Wave clear, Range, and insta burst. (pick 2) And that the whole mage Assassin retains the mage elements of range and waveclear, by making it even harder to burst down enemies. Though they still maintain the Assassins speed and play making potential. Unlike most AP Assassins (or Assassins more generally) who give up Range, but retain some ability to clear wave, have a much more reliable Bursting pattern.

AirKingNeoJan 31, 20175 votes

Tfw you're being downvoted for explaining Riot's plans and giving insight. "I don't like what you're saying even if there's nothing wrong with it, downvoted." Then he claims you (or some other Rioter) deleted his comment without any evidence.

Pretty silly if you ask me. Heck I'd really love if the downvote feature was removed. Then comments can't be downvoted for disagreement while people can still upvote. Pretty much why Rioters stay away from Gameplay. People there don't understand how anything works.

nm1010Jan 31, 201715 votes

Well he basically just announced an identity shift for a champion, people typically don't like that.

He is also fizz enthusiast, so he has a record of baiting responses with false info or just generally being a difficult person.

AMYS GRAVEJan 31, 20176 votes

I don't mean this to flamerino FE, but i can't tell if he's baiting responses, or just ignorant to the reasons why what he says is misinformed. His first boards post was only ~2 months ago so he may not have the historical perspective necessary to make informed posts.

Yordle XayahJan 31, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gZcBNVGn,comment-id=002d,timestamp=2017-01-30T22:49:09.931+0000)

we are pushing LB towards more of a kite mage direction

I thought that was Ahri's design space as THE kite mage? That's a puzzling direction to take what has always been a bursty assassin, with a kit designed around that fantasy. So what's even going on anymore? Why are you forcing a new identity into a champion that had no identity crisis before? (You did this to Tristana, then neglect her for a year and say you don't know her identity anymore) Why go against the design of the champion's kit? If you want to make a new kite mage (even though Ahri is right there) why not make just another champion instead of robbing an established character of her identity?

Or are you just changing things for the sake of changing things?

http://static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Episode-4-R2-D2-Hiding-Behind-Rocks.jpg

Is that what you're trying to do? This is very confusing and not the first time you've done it. Juggle around with a champion's identity as if it meant nothing to their character.

KeevalroyJan 31, 20179 votes