Don't pick an AD champion against Veigar just because his ult does damage based on your AP

YumaS2Astral··25 votes·5,538 views

Many people see his ult doing damage based on the enemy's AP and then think: "Veigar is hard countered by AD champions"

Then they instalock Yasuo Zed Talon - I would mention Jayce too, but he is rarely picked and those who pick him generally are good with him. Same for Varus

Of course, if you are good with Yasuo/Zed/Talon, and your team needs an AD assassin that can deal not only with Veigar, but also with the rest of their team, then go ahead and pick them.

The problem is that many times those people don't know how to properly play those AD champions and end up feeding. And even when they know how to play those AD champions, sometimes they are not a good choice for the team. Either because they fall off late game, or because the team needs an AP champion so that the enemy tank does not have an easy time itemizing against our team.

Also, Veigar usually ends up one-shotting anyone late game no matter if they are AD or AP. The only champions that he can't one shot are AD bruisers and tanks, and that's because they have the HP and magic resistance needed to survive Veigar's combo.

Pro tip: Veigar isn't necessarily countered by AD champions. You can also counter him with AP champions that can outrange him. Examples include Lux Ziggs Xerath KogMaw. There is also Fizz which despite being AP, can counter Veigar because he can become untargetable with his Playful/Trickster and avoid Veigar's ult. You can also build AD Fizz and thus counter Veigar even more, but be wary if that's what your team needs. I've also had success countering Veigar with Vladimir because he can use the Sanguine Pool to avoid Veigar's ult and has enough HP to survive the rest of his burst.

Also, every AP champion can buy a item 3157. This item can counter Veigar because you can activate it at the moment that Veigar's ult is about to hit you. And because you become untargetable, you become immune to his ult, which will go into full cooldown.

72 Comments

HaIlMonitor17 votes

This kind of reminds me of when Kassadin was near 100% pick ban. Whenever he wasn't banned first pick blue would take him and proseed to feed 0/10/x in 20 minutes lol

Mecha MaIphite8 votes

I still think Talon is a great pick into Veigar. He vas the tools to get out of his stun, and delete him almost before he can react. Talon also scales decently, pretty much killing squishies instantly with one combo.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

I still think Talon is a great pick into Veigar. He vas the tools to get out of his stun, and delete him almost before he can react. Talon also scales decently, pretty much killing squishies instantly with one combo.

By himself Talon is a great pick against Veigar. It is just that Talon does not always is a good pick for your team because your team needs an AP champion more.

Sometimes even though a champion can be a counter to other, the champion may still not be a good choice for one reason or another. For example, usually I pick Lulu against Rumble in top lane. However, if my team needs a tank, then I pick Cho'Gath instead. I can easily beat Rumble with both champions and I have confidence in both champions.

GastonBarnacles2 votes

Talon is op. I might buy him cause I never play ad mid assassins.

Melledoneus1 votes

He's the weakest AD assassin in the game.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

super untrue. He scales way harder into lategame than someone like Zed (with a weaker laning phase in general until you get items). HIs ability to oneshot multiple people is very, very high.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tyzWbZ7t,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-08T17:58:41.290+0000)

super untrue. He scales way harder into lategame than someone like Zed (with a weaker laning phase in general until you get items). HIs ability to oneshot multiple people is very, very high.

Well, most of time Zed's better early game is more valuable, and this explains why he is more popular despite the fact that Talon outscales him.

Melledoneus1 votes

Talon is the weakest because it's difficult for him to reach that point without help. Never did I say he was unviable, I just said he's the weakest because against most mid lane match-ups he easily gets bullied or outpushed, losing valuable gold and farm. He can easily fall behind and has no way to farm against hard match-ups like Diana.

Zed, on the other hand, has a spammable projectile that he can use to farm from afar and an unconditional escape that Talon lacks. He's safer in lane and is more reliable as a pick.

I'm not saying Talon doesn't scale like a madman, I'm just saying he lacks many of the tools of other mid laners to reach that point. There are games where he never reaches it because aggressive early junglers like LeeSin snowball the lead of his team so Talon can't even burst down the ADC because of how far ahead they are.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Late game Zed turns himself into 1 for 1 trades half the time if he can't get a flank. Talon can usually get out of a team fight after at least 1 kill and has a viable escape if he is caught out trying to flank (on a 30 sec cd or so). The only thing zed has over him is a better laning phase however talon can put his opponent on farm the second he pulls any sort of lead since his ult will be up almost every time they come back to lane from respawning so he can just kill them again.

Melledoneus1 votes

I've mained both for months at a time. Zed is easier to farm with, has a safer laning phase, is easier to juke teams with, and can pull off some nasty turn-around assassinations with his untargetability on his ultimate.

Talon, while I do agree he can delete carries by jumping to them, Has one way to get in and he has to literally walk away from a team whose carry you just killed. I've stopped many Talons late game by CC'ing them right when they E to my carries. It's so easy to tell because Talon does the same damn thing every time. Don't know where he is when he stealths? Gee, I wonder if there was a 100 gold solution... item 2043

Melledoneus2 votes

I'm not brandishing and parading around with the Bronze icon, so... yeah...

Don't mock my rank if you're not much better.

Fowus1 votes

lol

Fowus1 votes

Talon is not op by any means

He is balanced

Battlecast Sona1 votes

Talon is actually one of the hardest lategame scaling assassin due to the number of AD ratios and the damage amp on his E.

Doct0r Phil3 votes

I loved this post. I am so happy when people pick those ad assassins against me as Veig.

I take teleport, run ms quints, and farm all day. They don't kill me and I just wait till mid/late game when I can combo them. Then (as the OP said) the enemy team often ends up having no AP champions. Our tank(s) can easily itemize.

Don't forget Syndra though. She's tough to fight, our ranges me, and can knock me away.

HaIlMonitor4 votes

I love that under a week ago he was considered unplayable and weak.

Zenthon Prime7 votes

He was considered weak by metasheep. Those buffs were actually reletively minor, and he's been able to do the crap he's doing right now for a while.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

i think you underestimate the power of a delay. taking away the cast time on his W and lowering the delay is a huge buff for a 1:1 AP ratio spell. Think of it this way - when veigar's E was changed by incorporating a delay, it was a huge nerf to him. the spell went from "broken" to "easily avoided". Now his W went from "easily avoided" to "strong".

For the more math-y side: Veigar's stun is 2.5 seconds at max rank, reduced to 1.65 with mercs (1.5 seconds at rank one, reduced to 1 second with mercs). When his W had a 1.5 second delay, he would need to predict landing the stun when placing his W. Now with only a 1.25 delay, at least at max rank, he can actually wait until his stun lands, drop the W, and still have it land during the CC.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

Veigar's w delay was unchanged.all that happened was that everything starts at the beginning of the cast time instead of at the end. This means that every part of his w comes out .25 seconds faster.

Abyssphere3 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's w delay was unchanged.all that happened was that everything starts at the beginning of the cast time instead of at the end. This means that every part of his w comes out .25 seconds faster.

That is pedantry. It still lands .25 seconds quicker than it used to, which is the significant part regarding his balance state.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

yes it lands .25 seconds "quicker" but it's overall delay is STILL 1.2 seconds. That remains unchanged. Overall, most people still have the ability to dodge it outside of the stun. The only real thing it did for Veigar was make it easier to combo his W with his rank 1 E.

pE4CbxDPQO3 votes

Zed solid as heck vs Veigar. Not sure what you are on about.

Champion Skin3 votes

I just imagine unskilled Zed ulting in on Veigar and landing in a stun and getting blown up

Kat Head1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tyzWbZ7t,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2015-10-08T06:26:15.412+0000)

I just imagine unskilled Zed ulting in on Veigar and landing in a stun and getting blown up

Skilled or unskilled that is the result, veigar craps on zed and almost every other assassin.

Hawkefire3 votes

Actually he isn't quite as strong as you think versus veigar. Any time Zed goes to ult Veigar, if the Veigar is good he will immediately place his stun down so the ring goes around behind him, thus immediately stunning Zed the moment his untargetability wheres off and essentially eliminating his combo.

pE4CbxDPQO1 votes

{quoted}

Actually he isn't quite as strong as you think versus veigar. Any time Zed goes to ult Veigar, if the Veigar is good he will immediately place his stun down so the ring goes around behind him, thus immediately stunning Zed the moment his untargetability wheres off and essentially eliminating his combo.

As with every single matchup Zed faces - why would he ult when his enemy's CC or escape is off CD? smh

Hawkefire1 votes

What else is Veigar going to use his event horizon for? It is so bloody telegraphed that he really shouldn't ever use it except to deter an engage (in terms of fighting zed.....he will never use it against zed unless zed ults because with proper positioning zed simply wont be able to touch him otherwise, and in this case it is a 100% guarantee stun, which is the most favorable case for veigar) or as followup to an ally's cc.

pE4CbxDPQO1 votes

{quoted}

What else is Veigar going to use his event horizon for? It is so bloody telegraphed that he really shouldn't ever use it except to deter an engage (in terms of fighting zed.....he will never use it against zed unless zed ults because with proper positioning zed simply wont be able to touch him otherwise, and in this case it is a 100% guarantee stun, which is the most favorable case for veigar) or as followup to an ally's cc.

Pardon Zed whilst he combo's and swaps atop him, blowing cutlass and nojoke autos and ignite then. Veigar is squishy. Ult isnt really required. No way around this. Matchup is handily in Zed's favor.

Hawkefire1 votes

Why in the world is Veigar standing in range of his shadow? Veigar's Q range is 300 units greater than Zeds shadow range, he should be no where near that close to him.

pE4CbxDPQO1 votes

{quoted}

Why in the world is Veigar standing in range of his shadow? Veigar's Q range is 300 units greater than Zeds shadow range, he should be no where near that close to him.

No one has EVER moved out of position a teemo or two to try to last hit.

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

Best counter to Veigar is Zed with item 3156 and item 3071, just remember to ask jungle or top to go AP.

Stonington2 votes

You're right to say that. I think Jayce is an alright pick though. We used to just build merc treads to get out of his stun and avoid the comet. Also just build flat pen first. Build things like haunting guise and abyssal scepter.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Has one bad game with AD assassin against veigar team automatically assumes 1 game defines how good a player is at a champ "OMG NOOB AD ASSASSIN REPORTED"

Jungled2 votes

Jayce is bae!

Mimy1 votes

Ooooh I own Ziggs :D

frybread warrior2 votes

Ooooh i main Ziggs :33333333333333333333333333 (or used to)

Borbland1 votes

This also goes for Galio

Galio is strong against AD assassins, thanks to his W that gives him really high armor and mr boost, so if you max this first against any AD assassins, you're never going to die.

Also, I hate Galio's building MR even against AD champs to get that "free" AP. Except Abyssal, which is core on him, dont get any more MR on him, but get a frickin Zhonya.

Anyway, this goes similar with Veigar, people pick AD champs just to counter his ult, but Veigar can actually shut down most AD assassins fairly well.

If you want to counter Veigar, you dont rush Morello, but a Quicksilver Stash, it's cheap and extremly useful.

LeprechaunJinx2 votes

Itemizing against Veigar really is the most universal counter to him, and that's from a player who mains Veigar.

Even if you don't want to rush a item 3140 , which is understandable on a lot of champions, just build as much MR as you reasonably can into your normal build path. Grab a item 3165 if you really need the Grievous Wounds but otherwise item 3174 gives magic resist and a stronger mana sustain which you can use to abuse Veigar. item 3001, item 3102, or heaven forbid item 3060 and watch Veigar scramble to set up for his combo. Banshees breaks any flow he has with combo-ing abilities, Abyssal is both a strong AP item and provides good magic resist and a nice debuff, and the Banner active is incredible against Veigar since he just doesn't have any means of dealing damage to the empowered minion.

If you're AD, item 3155 into item 3156 is your best friend and really screws up Veigar since the passive MR is pretty good and that magic shield is fantastic against any burst mage.

Borbland1 votes

Yeah, Veigar gets countered really really easily.

You can counter him by staying far from him, you counter him naturally y him being weaker early game. You can counter him with alot of items effficently. For me, the best way to counter him if he gets a thread is Banshee or Qss. Since Banshee is so expensive, qss is the better option early for me. Athene can also be an option, as well as anything you've mentioned.

Vi Sempai1 votes

my answer is to Olaf mid since ad and high HP = bad time for Veigar while his high tank stats means i can itemize for anything and still do large ammounts of dmg.

that being said being an Olaf main helps in that regards

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vi Sempai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tyzWbZ7t,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-10-08T21:53:28.604+0000)

my answer is to Olaf mid since ad and high HP = bad time for Veigar while his high tank stats means i can itemize for anything and still do large ammounts of dmg.

that being said being an Olaf main helps in that regards

Yeah but Veigar still hits like a truck even against those targets, sometimes he can leave them low enough so that the enemy team can focus them without major problems.

Vi Sempai1 votes

im not saying he cant chunk me, quite the opposite, i want him tho waste his nuke on me so my team come out winning any fight after XP

magic pole1 votes

yeh, his combo with ult will 100-0 those AD guys anyway. of course they can do the same, but if they hit the cage... YA DONE SON anyway i would agree range makes him useless. Varus could never walk in range of the cage if he wanted. Xerath possibly but living on the edge bc his E is somewhat close range and if he hits the cage, well good bye xerath

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Zed and Talon Are generally amazing at crushing Veigar. Thing is they take skill

Boxpencil1 votes

I DIDNT EVEN KNOW THAT HIS ULT DID DAMAGE BASED ON YOUR AP.

THANK YOU.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

lol same thing with Galio. People see him and think 'wow what noob picks galio into my ad champ' then they get bulwarked and can't do anything but heal Galio as he destroys them.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Hmm weird, I do understand how Yasuo and Zed might have a problem since he can place the stun either in front of Yasuo's path or on Zed's Shadow, but Talon is different. The stun warning pops up you W him and E at the same time AA, Q, if he is still alive you ult. You might need to flash in or out depending on how far you are but still all of that takes less then a second and Veigar will most likely die instantaneously. Of course you point about actually being good is vaild, but still thanks to his E its hard for Talon to not erase Veigar before he can even Zhonya's.

Martyrofsand1 votes

Guess I'm weird but when I face a Veiger I tend to pick Cassiopeia . Sure when I hit my late game hyperscaling you very well may 1 shot me...to bad I tend to hit that by like 20 minutes with a 3-5 level advantage over you because you can't do anything of relevance to me in the early game. The amount of times I kill Veiger at level 2 with Cassio is out right cruel and the combination of Cleanse+Hourglass means I am always ready to negate your ult.

Volts011 votes

I do see your point but, vigar is weak aganst most assassins and zeds ult can protect him from vigars ult if timed right. You can have your top pick vlad or some ap or take a ap junger so you have mixed damage.

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