@riot: please stop screwing around with items that werent designed for adc

Critmaster Garen·Nov 1, 2015·117 votes·6,472 views

why are you changing and in their favour?

maw is already a cost effective item for any ad champ who wants to mitigate magic burst. and even if a lot of adc arent getting it, its still a good item for them aswell as anyone else. the lifesteal and attack speed on the new passive are directly targeted at adc. why? the increasing ad bonus was good for everyone. the new passive isnt.

and cleaver. this just boggles my mind. the item was designed as a CORE item for heavy fighters. why in the 9 hells would you change it in a way, to make it more accessable to adc? it completely defeats the purpose of what the item was made for. its not SUPPOSED to be effective for them but for champions who try to fight them. and they want the extra health.

i dont agree with the scimitar change either.

what youre doing with adc items like phantom dancers is one thing, but please dont take this ever to live.

131 Comments

Jeddy017Nov 1, 201540 votes

Wasn't the whole point item 3071 was reworked months ago was to make it better for it's intended class?

The changes to BC are one of changes that shouldn't go live.

Cloud PotatoNov 2, 201514 votes

BC is currently a must buy for every melee AD champion. It's ludicrously overpowered and has absolutely no competing items whatsoever. That said, Riot's proposed changes aren't going to change either of those things, so feel free to carry on.

Jeddy017Nov 2, 20151 votes

I won't say it's a must buy for every AD melee champs.That's a little bit of an exaggeration.But for those who it is intended for (tank AD fighters),it certainly is a must.

toxıc sIutNov 2, 20153 votes

No. Cleaver is so damn good it can work on assassins, and that's a serious problem.

That being said, -100 hp and +15 AD is NOT the way to go. The price however, is way too low. It's about 3.2k gold worth of stats not counting the 30% armor mitigation (which can have a total value into the thousands if stacked on multiple members of a team) and the pretty much permanent 20 movespeed that bumps up to 60 on kills and assists.

And Last Whisper is 60% gold efficient for the 35% armor pen. 30% armor SHRED on an already cost effective item is obscene.

YumaS2AstralNov 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

No. Cleaver is so damn good it can work on assassins, and that's a serious problem.

That being said, -100 hp and +15 AD is NOT the way to go. The price however, is way too low. It's about 3.2k gold worth of stats not counting the 30% armor mitigation (which can have a total value into the thousands if stacked on multiple members of a team) and the pretty much permanent 20 movespeed that bumps up to 60 on kills and assists.

And Last Whisper is 60% gold efficient for the 35% armor pen. 30% armor SHRED on an already cost effective item is obscene.

Actually, not all AD assassins use item 3071 . They can all use this item effectively, but it is not a core item for all of them.

For Khazix specifically, I think that this is a core item, because unlike most AD assassins, he doesn't benefit a lot from item 3142 (Kha'Zix already has a lot of natural sticking power and the attack speed and crit are wasted, he is by far the least AA-reliant AD assassin), also, his burst is lower and more conditional when compared to other AD assassins. He needs to stay on combat for a longer time, thus, the HP from The Black Cleaver benefits him a lot. Also, he really likes when he is able to max CDR.

However, for other AD assassins like Rengar Zed Talon this is not a core item. It is still an optional item for them, but they don't really need the extra HP from The Black Cleaver, also, they really benefit from item 3142 . They have the freedom to focus on squishier builds when compared to Kha'Zix, due to their overall burst being higher.

I didn't mentioned Fiora LeeSin Yasuo MasterYi Riven because it is extremely debatable whether they are assassins or fighters. That said, with the exception of Yasuo, they can all use The Black Cleaver effectively, too. However, this item is only core for Fiora, and optional for the others.

ShinjusukeNov 2, 20152 votes

You make some solid points, I just wanted to throw out that A) Lee Sin in his current state is an "everything", so it doesn't matter so much what you build on him, and B) Master Yi is pretty un-debatably most effective with an assassin build, unless you're really crappy at picking your fights.

The Bearded BardNov 2, 20151 votes

20% cdr is too much. What kind of game is this where AD has better cdr itemization than AP?

Critmaster GarenNov 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2015-11-02T08:48:18.846+0000)

20% cdr is too much. What kind of game is this where AD has better cdr itemization than AP?

it depends on what youre talking about. caster ad champs need ad as much as mages.

but in the past they have taken care not to make cdr available to adc, since theyre already strong enough for their auto attacks. giving them strong spells and crits on autos would be unfair. i guess thats over now.

The Bearded BardNov 2, 20151 votes

So take some of the other stats away. AP gets AP, mana regen, cdr, and grevious wounds on their big cdr item, or a small amount of mr, less ap, and way more regen. AD get health, AD, cdr, and a ridiculous amount of armor reduction.

Call me crazy, but I think I'd take 30% mr reduction over mana regen/grevious wounds.

BoomerangbroNov 1, 201513 votes

Theyre also removing item 3172 . Just because ADC's don't buy it!!!! YOU KNOW WHAT! It was made for Attack Speed reliant fighters!!

Aatrox XinZhao Udyr . Yes, let's just forget them, because ADC's wont build the item.

Captain AishiNov 1, 20155 votes

I used to get that quite often on shyvana when I wanted tenacity AND ninja tabi's passive.. the stats on the item were everything she could want :(

Only Play DariusNov 2, 201510 votes

While they're at it they are nerfing the passive on item 3153 because KogMaw would abuse it ridiculously hard thanks to his new W letting him get 5.0 attack speed.

...which completely ruins it for MasterYi Tryndamere Jax Irelia . They have to nerf the shit out of a core item on 4 champions just because one ADC would be broken if it remained in it's current state. I love Koggie but he shouldn't get special treatment, why they couldn't just make it 8% for melees and 6% for ranged is beyond me.

Not to mention the new item 3078 changes shoehorning it into an item that any ADC can buy at the cost of the champions that don't scale with crit. I would have preferred they created a new Sheen item with a spellblade that scales with bonus AD instead of reworking the core damage item for so many fighters. Admittedly ADC itemization was too linear but that's no excuse to rework Triforce in a way that ruins it for Nasus Udyr Hecarim

ZephyrDrakeNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-11-02T00:14:39.026+0000)

While they're at it they are nerfing the passive on because would abuse it ridiculously hard thanks to his new W letting him get 5.0 attack speed.

...which completely ruins it for . They have to nerf the shit out of a core item on 4 champions just because one ADC would be broken if it remained in it's current state. I love Koggie but he shouldn't get special treatment, why they couldn't just make it 8% for melees and 6% for ranged is beyond me.

so you want them to nerf it for ranged champions because of one ranged champion? why are those 4 melee's getting the special treatment then?

Only Play DariusNov 2, 20153 votes

Because ranged champions have much more reliable ways of using the passive then melee champions do, hence why it should be weaker for them. It's the same reasoning with item 3022 item 3025 item 3930

And you're already giving ranged champions ways of reducing damage done by melees thanks to phantom dancer.

ZephyrDrakeNov 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-11-02T00:26:16.671+0000)

Because ranged champions have much more reliable ways of using the passive then melee champions do, hence why it should be weaker for them. It's the same reasoning with

And you're already giving ranged champions ways of reducing damage done by melees thanks to phantom dancer.

except that BotRK was an ADC item so no, you are wrong

Only Play DariusNov 2, 20158 votes

It's not an ADC item, it's a DPS item. Most ADC's other than Vayne Twitch Kalista don't even build it unless there are some serious health stackers on the other team.

ZephyrDrakeNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-02T00:47:07.607+0000)

It's not an ADC item, it's a DPS item. Most ADC's other than don't even build it unless there are some serious health stackers on the other team.

what? most don't build it? what game are you even playing? Tristana KogMaw Corki Ezreal Kindred builds it all the god damn time and Ashe Caitlyn MissFortune build it quite often. What game are you playing?

Only Play DariusNov 2, 20152 votes

My bad I forgot about KogMaw Corki , but once again BORK is actually core on them. For the others, It's not core, their main damage item is Infinity Edge and BORK is usually one of the last items they pick up just so that they can do something about health stacking, it's not the majority of their damage, most of their damage comes from other items and I frequently see them end the game without ever buying it.

Unlike other champions like Yi Jax Irelia in which it is either their first or second item so they rely on it for midgame, and they usually don't build more than 2 damage items so many games it's their only source of damage, so 2% less damage on BORK is going to hurt them much more than it will hurt an ADC who also has a Bloodthirster, IE, and LW on the side.

Voluug13Nov 2, 20157 votes

BotRK was a replacement for Madred's Bloodrazor.

And Madred's was a jungler item, unusually bought by some ADCs.

No difference from now that BotRK is built on 3-4 Adcs (Vayne, Rat, Kali, Kog) and easily 10 junglers/toplaners/assassins (Yi, Xin, Trynda, Irelia, Jax, WW, Nocturne, Aatrox, Olaf, Shyvana AD/Hybrid Eve, ~~Even more Cancer~~ AD Fizz, Zed and Yasuo).

The amount of BotRK melee users far outnumbers the ADCs.

Tis a nice dayNov 2, 20153 votes

item 3153 used to have 4% current hp damage.

Need Gold 4 TentNov 2, 20152 votes

Max hp, max hp. They could only double the number by making it current hp, else WW would 1 shot anyone with 2 items.

Zair UmbrasNov 2, 20153 votes

I dunno. I sort of like it for Nasus since they added in CDR at the loss of some AP. Considering the 5% from masteries is 'almost' gone, it's nice to be able to get a Sheen, FH, and Visage and have maxed CDR for the Q farm. It's actually quite nice.

Chromatic EagleNov 2, 20152 votes

Anything that makes Vayne slightly less synergised with Botrk is fine.

Only Play DariusNov 2, 20152 votes

It's not the passive that synergizes with her

The attack speed because her base scaling is too high
The lifesteal for sustain
The active to make her even more bursty and mobile

The passive %HP is just the icing on the cake, this nerf doesn't do as much as you would think. Not to mention her %HP true damage is getting buffed so her damage will rely on the passive even less.

Zair UmbrasNov 2, 20152 votes

Yeah, but it makes the power spike less noticeable since her early game, especially with the W change, is going to be pretty bad. The AS won't scale nearly as hard as it used to. While 2% isn't much, it is noticeable. There's also the fact that the other ADC's have gotten major buffs to their early games, making Vayne's weak early even more noticeable.

AhhShucksNov 2, 20152 votes

I don't understand why everyone thinks removing the AP and adding CDR ruins it for those champs. Every single one of those champs should like CDR better than AP.

shteeebNov 2, 20151 votes

The new Trinity Force is better on literally all of those champions.

Why the hell would they want AP rather than more crit and cdr?

UltraboomerNov 1, 20157 votes

Let me start by saying that any and all AD champions will benefit from the new maw passive. AD champions have to be balanced around the fact that their auto attacks usually scale 1:1 with their total AD. so with the new maw passive those non marksman, for example MasterYi , XinZhao , Aatrox , JarvanIV , Zed , Talon , etc. will benefit equally. You still get the ad, you still get the mr, you still get the shield, now you get lifesteal and attack speed too. Can't say I see the problem, since this is just a buff to all ad champions. Similar case for scimitar too, except that I actually see maw being built sometimes.

Even as an adc main though, I must say I don't like the cleaver change and would like to know the real context behind that decision. I don't think they are trying to make it an adc item (we have last whisper upgrades for that) but the changes do seem oddly in that direction.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Let me start by saying that any and all AD champions will benefit from the new maw passive. AD champions have to be balanced around the fact that their auto attacks usually scale 1:1 with their total AD. so with the new maw passive those non marksman, for example , , , , , , etc. will benefit equally. You still get the ad, you still get the mr, you still get the shield, now you get lifesteal and attack speed too. Can't say I see the problem, since this is just a buff to all ad champions. Similar case for scimitar too, except that I actually see maw being built sometimes.

Even as an adc main though, I must say I don't like the cleaver change and would like to know the real context behind that decision. I don't think they are trying to make it an adc item (we have last whisper upgrades for that) but the changes do seem oddly in that direction.

caster ad champs profit a lot more from the ad increase on the current maw than the attack speed. and the bonus ad are being removed in favour of as + lifesteal. not to mention that it doesnt just grant a short window of a steroid, but augments your ad whenever your health drops.

they draw most of their damage from their abilities and the current maw augments the abilites aswell as auto attacks.

so yes. this change sucks ass for most ad champions who mainly rely on their spells.

MasterYi is an adc.

Aatrox XinZhao JarvanIV wouldnt feel much of a difference. though inceasing ad with low health might be more useful to aatrox. he already has a lot of attack speed with 1 or 2 items and his ult.

Zed Talon would most likely prefer more raw ad to boost their spells.

AkabaneKunNov 1, 20155 votes

I guess it's hard to make new items for the game or something. I mean if they have ideas for new adcs overlords itemization fine just make a new item, but having the nerve to remove CORE item's from other classes when said class is already suffering in variety while ADCS have already one of the broadest set of items baffles me or any top laner, we are already going to be destroyed by ranged champions after they buffed their early game(WHY?!!?), and now even if miraculously some of us manage to not get rekt the first 5 mins of the game we can't even build ourselves properly.

BakedLotionNov 1, 20153 votes

What exactly changed? All i saw was increased ad and lowered hp o.o on cleaver

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 201513 votes

{quoted}

What exactly changed? All i saw was increased ad and lowered hp o.o on cleaver

large price increase of 500g, 100 less health, 10 more ad.

TurquoiseYoshiNov 1, 20152 votes

The price increase is because of the overall gold rework. That isn't really relevant to the discussion.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The price increase is because of the overall gold rework. That isn't really relevant to the discussion.

it kindof is, when the price for adc items doesnt get adjusted. for some reason riot thinks its appropriate to also buff their early game and make their items relative cheaper than for everyone else, so these lategame champs can already powerspike midgame.

Dunkrius2gNov 2, 20154 votes

15 ad actually but still that is **ed up tho

Zair UmbrasNov 2, 20153 votes

15 more AD, plus LW no longer affects base armor while Cleaver does. Cleaver is now stronger than a LW on tanks with high base armors, like Rammus and Braum who have 104 and 103 respectively at 18. That's 50% reduction that you can't reduce with a LW anymore, you have to use Youmuu's, Cleaver, or an Armor REDUCING ability, like J4 and Wu's Q.

When they have 300 armor, which is a bonus of about 200. LW will ignore about 90 armor. Cleaver would reduce their armor by about 75. If they only have 200 armor, a boost of 100, then LW ignores 47 where as Cleaver ignores 50.

Cleaver is the damage go-to option for bruisers since it does best against high base armor tanks where as LW helps them kill the hiiiiigh bonus armor tanks like Malphite and Sion. (Sion only has 70 base.) To make it not so powerful, they boosted the cost, lowered the health, but increased the AD to make sure people know it's not a perfectly well rounded item to pick up at any time, but an item you get for damage.

Reaper ReviewNov 1, 20152 votes

Besides the price increase, are the BC changes really a big deal?

Using it as a sole or one-of-2 damage item for a bruiser build, you'll still get plenty of Health from your other itemization, while doing a bit more damage than before. Whereas people who get BC without other bulk items don't get as much bulk out of it.

It seems like it was changed around the assumption that you'll be building additional Health on top of it, but that's just my 2 cents.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Naut A Liss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-11-01T22:38:58.821+0000)

Besides the price increase, are the BC changes really a big deal?

Using it as a sole or one-of-2 damage item for a bruiser build, you'll still get plenty of Health from your other itemization, while doing a bit more damage than before. Whereas people who get BC without other bulk items don't get as much bulk out of it.

It seems like it was changed around the assumption that you'll be building additional Health on top of it, but that's just my 2 cents.

the big deal is, that a more offensive focused cleaver is easier fit into an adc build. its like the time they changed ghostblade from a melee focused item to be more available by adc.

a lot of them jumped on the thing, it turned out too strong on them and riot wanted to nerf it.

you see the problem here? there are some adc who might utilize cleaver too well ( Corki Sivir Ashe MissFortune Lucian Graves ) and they might even end up nerfing the item for it. not to mention the type of champion who is supposed to get cleaver still prefers the extra defense over higher ad, since its more useful if you have just the cleaver and another resistance item to go with it.

bruisers have high base damage on their spells, so the 40 ad and armor shred are a good enough offensive boost and they want mainly health asap survive longer in fights because the higher base values make them scale better with defense.

okinoNov 2, 20152 votes

i mean adc's could just get banshee's. it's viable and good against ap bust and just bc its not dmg item it doesnt mean its shit.

Photos of GhostsNov 2, 20151 votes

It got heavily nerfed by Drake popping it. SV is better for ADCs since it increases their lifesteal.

okinoNov 2, 20151 votes

just wondering, how did banshee's get nerfed? mr or something?

BakedLotionNov 1, 20151 votes

black cleaver on lucian is actually pretty fun as it is now lel

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20156 votes

{quoted}

black cleaver on lucian is actually pretty fun as it is now lel

maybe in nieche cases and not directly intended. but it sickens me that theyre changing every ad item in the game into an adc item. isnt it enough that theyre overbuffing the existing adc items and introduce new ones?

they could at least leave the ones alone that arent intended for them specifically or directly intended for other types of ad champions.

ProeliumNov 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-01T20:22:34.118+0000)

maybe in nieche cases and not directly intended. but it sickens me that theyre changing every ad item in the game into an adc item. isnt it enough that theyre overbuffing the existing adc items and introduce new ones?

they could at least leave the ones alone that arent intended for them specifically or directly intended for other types of ad champions.

Rito loves their freakin' ADC's

My Waifu VanillaNov 2, 20151 votes

Not really. ADCs have arguably been pretty bad compared to what they once were in Season 2. Metas are defined by who shits on ADCs more and they are always the target of oppression. In Season 4 when it was Kha and Lee all over the place with Zed/Talon the ADC could hardly play the game since he would die before it mattered and was really only taken to shove towers down after a won fight. Even in this last season when it was mainly control mages Viktor would laser an ADC for over half their health and they were out of the fight or he would simply kill them with ult or Q. Same with Annie. Spring Split was arguably just as bad for tanks when it was literally stack a bunch of CC monster tanks on your team and win since your goal was to make their team go afk through stun locks while still doing a large amount of damage.

I am not denying the fact that these ADC changes are a bit extreme and will probably get nerfed but it has been a very long time since ADC were the penultimate role on the rift where Juggermaw comps were a viable strategy.

Auz the RipperNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-02T04:50:14.689+0000)

Metas are defined by who shits on ADCs more and they are always the target of oppression.

If the Meta is always defined by ADC, that means they've alway been the most important. There's never been a meta where you can go without a Marksman except maybe Beta/season 1 and that one weird patch with Rengar.

ProeliumNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsivOLmI,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-02T04:50:14.689+0000)

Not really. ADCs have arguably been pretty bad compared to what they once were in Season 2. Metas are defined by who shits on ADCs more and they are always the target of oppression. In Season 4 when it was Kha and Lee all over the place with Zed/Talon the ADC could hardly play the game since he would die before it mattered and was really only taken to shove towers down after a won fight. Even in this last season when it was mainly control mages Viktor would laser an ADC for over half their health and they were out of the fight or he would simply kill them with ult or Q. Same with Annie. Spring Split was arguably just as bad for tanks when it was literally stack a bunch of CC monster tanks on your team and win since your goal was to make their team go afk through stun locks while still doing a large amount of damage.

I am not denying the fact that these ADC changes are a bit extreme and will probably get nerfed but it has been a very long time since ADC were the penultimate role on the rift where Juggermaw comps were a viable strategy.

However, baring Morde... it's the one role that is 100% required in every team comp.

RebonackNov 1, 20151 votes

See, I was thinking the Cleaver change was aimed at making it more attractive to Fighters and less so to Juggernauts.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20158 votes

{quoted}

See, I was thinking the Cleaver change was aimed at making it more attractive to Fighters and less so to Juggernauts.

the item was pretty much designed for garen and other ad casters. he was one of the poster boys for it back when they changed it at the start of season 3. so changing it to be less attractive for these champions is exactly the opposite whats appropriate.

but it was also made for champs like pantheon, or darius and similar heavy fighters.

other bruisers usually prefer triforce.