Meanwhile Thresh is still in every single game (six games in a row as it is, and counting), since release, broken as fuck in every single meta, never tier 2, at least tier 1 (when not God Tier).
http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend
Time to bring him back in line?
disregardable45 votes
Role Position: 1
Win Rate 54%
Role Position: 8
Win Rate: 49%
Yeah nerfing Janna was a completely uncalled for decision, you're right...
IcyPepper10 votesMaybe so, but Thresh is the #1 picked support. Janna might need nerfs (with her win rate and pick rate), but Thresh is a pretty dominant pick.
edit: care to share why he's not a pretty dominant pick? 37.27% pick rate isn't exactly Urgot-tier. I'm not saying he's pick/ban though.
Axests18 votesi don't see thresh as much of a problem, he's a good pick in a lot of situations because of his kit but i don't think he's broken.
IcyPepper29 votesHe's overshadowing other supports because he's so generalized. He's not broken in the traditional sense, but he's pushing out other supports who would otherwise see play without breaking the game.
Axests2 votescough cough leona cough cough
IcyPepper21 votes50.92% win rate. 15.33% pick rate.
Slightly higher win rate than Thresh by 1.88% (49.04%), but Thresh has a higher pick rate by a 21.94% margin (37.27%). Leona is getting some success, but Thresh is picked more than twice as much as Leona is. Win rate is not the only factor in game balance. Thresh is crowding out other supports much more than Leona is by preventing them from being picked, not just by winning games.
WarlockLaw14 votesThresh is not overpowered and therefore he really shouldn't be nerfed. Instead of nerfing thresh further why not bring attention to other supports. Buff some of the ones that are struggling maybe buff their items too (ones thresh can't use). With thresh's kit the way it is the only way to lower his play rate without gutting him would be to remove some of his utility. Adjusting his bases, numbers, mana or other numerical values will only really impact the win rate until it drops so low ppl just stop playing him
IcyPepper1 votesAnd let's be real here, people don't play Thresh for his numbers. Problem with balancing supports it due to them bringing utility to the table, and that's a pain in the ass. Soraka AP ratios too high? Nobody can die. Her bases are high but her AP ratios are crap? Full tank Raka and nobody wants that. And she's just one of many. Some supports are just a pain to balance. Thresh is hook, lantern, disengage and engage in one complete package.
chipndip12 votesAnd let's be real here, people don't play Thresh for his numbers. Problem with balancing supports it due to them bringing utility to the table, and that's a pain in the ass. Soraka AP ratios too high? Nobody can die. Her bases are high but her AP ratios are crap? Full tank Raka and nobody wants that. And she's just one of many. Some supports are just a pain to balance. Thresh is hook, lantern, disengage and engage in one complete package.
Then nerf the utility in and of itself.
-Decrease the distance he can throw the lantern -Decrease the total distance he can move from the lantern -Decrease the amount of time Thresh can have someone hooked before either letting them be or flying to them -Decrease the range of the hook (probably wouldn't happen seeing how it already has the longest delay for a hook in the game) -Nerf his ult's 99% non-decaying slow -Remove the shield from Thresh's lantern (That lantern does enough as is. It doesn't REALLY need a shield too, given what it already does)
Rather than nerfing his damage, just nerf the functional stuff, like his ranges and buff/debuffs.
Joquan2 votesI'm still curious why he's using a ENGAGE supports winrate and claiming it to be better than a SUSTAIN or DISENGAGE supports even though they funtion so differently, just because one thing is wrecking games in solo Q doesn't mean its the absolute best ( in teamcomp terms) because well, it's solo queue.
IcyPepper1 votesWell, I know Leona has seen LCS play (and Thresh... pretty sure everyone's seen him there). Tank supports tend to be popular.
I'd say that Thresh and Lee Sin (since he's well known for LCS) are more popular than successful in solo queue, and really shine in LCS (which is probably why they're popular as well).
Joquan1 votesWhich is why people cry about lee and thresh because they see them every game, same for vayne Janna is obnoxious as hell imo, and if she was spammed as much as they were people would be crying too.
Silents42910 votesWin rate is not the only factor in game balance.
Neither is playrate
IcyPepper3 votesToo high of either rate is an indicator that closer observation should take place, to see if any action at all is necessary.
Some champions are healthy with slightly lower/higher win rates, and some champions are going to be more popular than some. The point of me putting that out there was that Thresh has a "meh" win rate, but his pick rate is so high it's crowding out some supports that would see play otherwise. 37.27% pick rate is really high, especially when the second place contender is at 20.89%. That's not a small difference.
edit: I will admit that he might not be the problem, it might be the other supports. Something done to anything would be nice, as to close the gap and make a wider pool of picked champions.
Gregor Gysi4 votesWin rate is not the only factor in game balance.
I feel like winrate/games played is the best indicator for balance we players have access to.
IcyPepper1 votesTo a point, but we have to go further and check out other statistics available (highest win rates according to game length, team comp synergy, etc) and analyze what the numbers mean. Some champions can't be balanced for pro play and solo queue at the same time, and LCS played champions might be more popular than ones not balanced for competitive play.
Outliers, on the other hand, tend to raise a flag. Vayne right now is one instance where her pick/winrates are indicating there's a high power difference between her and other champions, Skarner indicates he's just blatantly overpowered (even a Red admitted this), and some champions' rates just indicate they're kind of forgotten.
Gregor Gysi3 votesTo a point, but we have to go further and check out other statistics available (highest win rates according to game length, team comp synergy, etc) and analyze what the numbers mean. Some champions can't be balanced for pro play and solo queue at the same time, and LCS played champions might be more popular than ones not balanced for competitive play.
Outliers, on the other hand, tend to raise a flag. Vayne right now is one instance where her pick/winrates are indicating there's a high power difference between her and other champions, Skarner indicates he's just blatantly overpowered (even a Red admitted this), and some champions' rates just indicate they're kind of forgotten.
Game length/winrate however is extremely situational and only useful in rare cases (eg: Vayne having a better winrate early than late, that'd show that something is wrong).
If we are talking about Vayne: her having a 50%+ winrate even when beginners play her then something is wrong, seeing how she is supposed to be hard to play.
But now back to the topic - Janna vs Thresh. Both are considered extremely safe and valuable picks in proplay, thresh being more pickfocused and Janna more disengage focused. Thresh is more a targetban against certain players that are good at him, while Janna mostly gets banned because you want to run an engage comp.
In soloQ however Janna is always strong for everyone (52% winrate for beginners) while Thresh seems to be extremely hard to play (44% winrate at the beginning) but still doesn't get rewarded for playing him a lot (up to 51%). IMO nerfing Janna over Thresh makes sense. While Thresh is never a bad pick, he is also never really OP. He is not the best in any area. Not the best at disengaging, not the best at making picks, not the best in lane and not the best in teamfights. Of course you may argue that this is why all the not support mains pick him up and thus decrease his winrate, however I doubt that the impact would be this high.
IcyPepper2 votesI may disagree with your opinion on Thresh somewhat, but your logic is sound and I can respect the argument you constructed.
Honestly, I'm not an expert in this kind of thing. I'm not really sure how to lower a champion's play rate and boost others outside of reworks and/or buffs/nerfs that will overbuff/gut a champion, which isn't really fair for anyone. Thresh is fair, but he's crowding out other supports due to his sheer popularity.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesi bet when project leona comes out we will see more of leona
Joquan4 votesWhile he may be better in general situations, there are supports that do a far better job in certain positions than thresh does, it's the fact that he has all of them together ( except a heal ) that make people play him, but that doesn't mean it's a problem.
iamleburk1 votesOrianna is the same way. Being a high skill cap, generalized champion means that it should be useful in more situations than other champs, but there will always be a champ better in that particular situation. This is how it is supposed to be
Xonra2 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-25T15:32:10.333+0000)
Yeah nerfing Janna was a completely uncalled for decision, you're right...
^
lol
I was about to explain but I think this explains it is much more simple terms.
Slamurai Jack7 votesThe only real reason Thresh's play rate is so high is the same reason Lee's pick rate is always so high. They're both the go to pick for people who don't main that role and they're both really fun to play. That's it. Nothing about either of their skillsets or power levels is particularly out of line but they're just so much more appealing than alternatives that people constantly choose them over other options.
DJ Di03 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-08-25T23:21:03.588+0000)
The only real reason Thresh's play rate is so high is the same reason Lee's pick rate is always so high. They're both the go to pick for people who don't main that role and they're both really fun to play. That's it. Nothing about either of their skillsets or power levels is particularly out of line but they're just so much more appealing than alternatives that people constantly choose them over other options.
Yup; even the pro players have used Thresh in every single split because he's fun, not because he's good.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-08-25T23:21:03.588+0000)
The only real reason Thresh's play rate is so high is the same reason Lee's pick rate is always so high. They're both the go to pick for people who don't main that role and they're both really fun to play. That's it. Nothing about either of their skillsets or power levels is particularly out of line but they're just so much more appealing than alternatives that people constantly choose them over other options.
lol this is so false, Lee Sin's pickrate used to be insanely higher than it is today when he was broken as hell (S4), and wonder why he's not picked as much anymore? Because he's not broken anymore
Meanwhile Thresh....
i can 100% tell you if Thresh got a strong nerf, no one would play him anymore, people want to win they don't want to play fun champs
also http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend care to explain me how people find E+Q bot Xin Zhao fun?
he's broken, and people play him because he's broken, that's it
General Murica1 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=00140001,timestamp=2015-08-26T08:54:42.421+0000)
lol this is so false, Lee Sin's pickrate used to be insanely higher than it is today when he was broken as hell (S4), and wonder why he's not picked as much anymore? Because he's not broken anymore
Meanwhile Thresh....
i can 100% tell you if Thresh got a strong nerf, no one would play him anymore, people want to win they don't want to play fun champs
also http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend care to explain me how people find E+Q bot Xin Zhao fun?
he's broken, and people play him because he's broken, that's it
My w/l with thresh is shit, i love playing him.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votes[{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=001400010000,timestamp=2015-08-26T14:00:44.145+0000)
My w/l with thresh is shit, i love playing him.
well you're still 1 guy out of 1000000
General Murica1 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0014000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-26T14:05:49.232+0000)
well you're still 1 guy out of 1000000
Not rly
Bad example 2, i'd play lee if he was decent+fun, but he's plain shit atm (hence peeps dont). I play JANNA cuz she's OP, even tho she's boring
Sakura Mirage6 votesJanna's nerfs aren't really nerfs to her support if they wanted to nerf the support part they would have attacked the base healing on her ult instead of the ap ratio. Because right now I only get to about what 120 ap late game as Janna where as when I solo lane I get up to 700 depending on when the enemy surrenders. What they should be doing is lowering base stats like what they did with howling gale and adding some ap ratios so Janna could be more like a lulu of solo lanes.
Poop Jelly2 votesThought so, too. I play Janna quite often and the healing ratio nerf doesn't seem much relevant. As in the Q range buff, it's not too relevant as well. Most the time I just fire it immediately anyway
Ikrit1226 votesI think that with thresh, it's all about his kit. He has a lot to his kit (shield with long-range dash for other champs, stun/grab with gap closer, aoe knockback, massive slow, ranged with bonus dmg for NOT attacking) and that makes him popular. The fact that his winrate is pretty low is due to two things: many people who pick him don't know how to play him (just look at the "winrate by games played" chart), and his numbers aren't that great.
In short, kit strong, numbers not. Many players suck with him.
toonpang3 votesI think the appropriate nerf would be removal of Thresh's infinite AP gain from souls [seriously, why does he have Veigar's gimmick as well as infinitely scaling armor?], and the removal of his lantern's hitbox.
"Stand on the lantern" used to be the counterplay to it, but now you can't even do that because it creates a small area of impassable terrain, unless you're a very wide champion.
These nerfs would bring him down a tad and give room to other supports out there.
Bard in a Diaper3 votesthresh is in every game because support players already like him and people that dont support usually play blitz or thresh for "big playz" or whatever. the majority of people wont pick something like janna for the team. Janna is significantly stronger. It's stupid that janna is basically as tanky as a bruiser support, cant even instagib her if i land a blitz pull. Thresh on the other hand is instadead if i pull him.
One Bind Morgana2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-25T17:57:15.433+0000)
thresh is in every game because support players already like him and people that dont support usually play blitz or thresh for "big playz" or whatever. the majority of people wont pick something like janna for the team. Janna is significantly stronger. It's stupid that janna is basically as tanky as a bruiser support, cant even instagib her if i land a blitz pull. Thresh on the other hand is instadead if i pull him.
are you really trying to suggest janna is tankier than thresh
rofl
Gorgannan2 votesI think he's factoring in the ult and ridiculous shield.
Bard in a Diaper2 votesare you really trying to suggest janna is tankier than thresh
rofl
plat 4 with minimal experience on either champion trying to tell me anything
rofl
Try and play a shitload of games of blitz and come back and tell me who is easier to instagib in lane, hint: its thresh by a longshot. Janna is incredibly difficult to kill, thresh is very squishy early.
One Bind Morgana2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2015-08-25T19:38:28.074+0000)
plat 4 with minimal experience on either champion trying to tell me anything
rofl
Try and play a shitload of games of blitz and come back and tell me who is easier to instagib in lane, hint: its thresh by a longshot. Janna is incredibly difficult to kill, thresh is very squishy early.
ye because blitz doesn't have a silence and knock up, both of which disables janna's ult/shield/flash
but nah i'll listen to the dumbass who doesn't even main support
VDc0zCqe0w7 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-25T17:57:15.433+0000)
thresh is in every game because support players already like him and people that dont support usually play blitz or thresh for "big playz" or whatever. the majority of people wont pick something like janna for the team. Janna is significantly stronger. It's stupid that janna is basically as tanky as a bruiser support, cant even instagib her if i land a blitz pull. Thresh on the other hand is instadead if i pull him.
dafuq are you smoking?
Bard in a Diaper1 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2015-08-25T18:52:49.632+0000)
dafuq are you smoking?
smoking this thing called actually playing the game and knowing champs capabilities instead of talking out of my ass because I personally dont like a champion.
VDc0zCqe0w2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2015-08-25T19:47:38.624+0000)
smoking this thing called actually playing the game and knowing champs capabilities instead of talking out of my ass because I personally dont like a champion.
you're an NA Nasus main, like what the fuck lmao, you can't have game knowledge playing shit like Nasus (and being from NA too)
Bard in a Diaper1 votes[deleted]
VDc0zCqe0w1 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T19:53:02.164+0000)
lmao are you for real m8
first of all EUW > NA, and secondly i got high winrate on Zyra too
git better
Bard in a Diaper2 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=000500010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:16:24.389+0000)
lmao are you for real m8
first of all EUW > NA, and secondly i got high winrate on Zyra too
git better
lol EUW is trash and has nothing at all to do with the convo but good strawman you European monkey. Point is you're a janna main and QQ'ing about a nerf on your main so any point you make is automatically invalid
good try though janna main trash, im sure spamming your E button to get to diamond was really difficult you worthless eurotrash :)
VDc0zCqe0w2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:19:10.347+0000)
good try though janna main trash, im sure spamming your E button to get to diamond was really difficult you worthless eurotrash :)
says the Nasus main LOL, dem mechanical plays m8
Bard in a Diaper1 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=00050001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:22:20.053+0000)
says the Nasus main LOL, dem mechanical plays m8
what is the correlation between nasus and me arguing in thresh's favor? can't wait to hear this one.
You have a direct interest in keeping janna overpowered while I don't give a shit about either champion and im just telling it to you straight that janna is significantly stronger then thresh.
and P.S. nasus is 50x harder to play then janna, a champion that any half retarded frog euro inbred kid can play. You being a good example.
General Murica2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=000500010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:26:35.796+0000)
what is the correlation between nasus and me arguing in thresh's favor? can't wait to hear this one.
You have a direct interest in keeping janna overpowered while I don't give a shit about either champion and im just telling it to you straight that janna is significantly stronger then thresh.
and P.S. nasus is 50x harder to play then janna, a champion that any half retarded frog euro inbred kid can play. You being a good example.
Without defending janna, nasus is braindead dumb easy+0 impact lane rofl.
Bard in a Diaper1 votes[{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:30:10.536+0000)
Without defending janna, nasus is braindead dumb easy+0 impact lane rofl.
and janna is 50x easier to play then nasus, so whats that say about that champion then? not surprisingly another one of frog inbred OP's EUW downie janna cocksucking fanclub members
General Murica1 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=00050001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:32:25.923+0000)
and janna is 50x easier to play then nasus, so whats that say about that champion then? not surprisingly another one of frog inbred OP's EUW downie janna cocksucking fanclub members
EH ye, i only made like 3 ''nerf janna threads''
Also no, both are easy, nasus easier
Bard in a Diaper1 votes[{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=000500010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:38:07.335+0000)
EH ye, i only made like 3 ''nerf janna threads''
Also no, both are easy, nasus easier
level 12 trolling the forums nice, get the fuck outta here virgin. you couldn't even hold a 20% winrate with nasus in diamond. guarantee you could with janna though.
General Murica4 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard in a Diaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqATjz5y,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T20:40:11.456+0000)
level 12 trolling the forums nice, get the fuck outta here virgin. you couldn't even hold a 20% winrate with nasus in diamond. guarantee you could with janna though.
You sure have great arguments man. That said, most nasus mains are retarded