After playing new Vlad....

WoonStruck·May 4, 2016·90 votes·10,843 views

...I've decided he's weaker at all stages of the game. Significantly weaker, and he was already in a terrible state before.

The burst you do its relatively equal if you happen to have empower Q and get a fully charged E. The DPS took a HUGE nerf.

The sustain from empowered Q hardly matters because its so clunky that you can never, ever get it off in a situation where it would be useful.

The ult heal feels insanely weak for how much damage they took out of it.

They even nerfed his W damage for absolutely no reason. At least make it scale with rank back up to 15%.

Despite being 'the sustain guy', he cannot even fathom fighting anyone with lifesteal now. His DPS and burst are now both far too weak to even hope to go toe to toe with them.

This Vlad reworks' numbers suck. He needs huge buffs. One of them could be taking the healing delay off Q. Its impossible to get clutch heals because of the delay, especially since using W makes you avoid the Q heal, and that's where a huge portion of his issues come from.

157 Comments

OleandervineMay 4, 201644 votes

Hey, I've noticed something you've all been saying that Riot themselves have stated - these are merely numbers problems, not kit problems. They stated that they'll be monitoring the mages on live and tweaking numbers and ratios as they see fit. In a game like this, it's much better to underpower something when you massive reworks and then gradually bring it up than to drop 15 OP kits in the game and watch all hell break loose.

WoonStruckMay 5, 20168 votes

A lot of issues are numbers right now, but there are mechanical issues that make him nearly unplayable as well.

His Q has a much larger delay that affects movement, healing, and damage. This is huge considering how much more reliant he is on its use now (ironically).
Q gets canceled by W. Heal particle gets canceled if you wait until after Q casts to W.
W gets canceled by E. Can't cast E during W.
W now has a longer delay before untargetability. Untargetability now ends sooner, but you are self-silenced for that remaining duration still. Combined with new Q delay, its nearly a full second that you're vulnerable, and often get crit 2 times by the ADC and die before you can use empowered Q out of W.
I seem to be dying during W quite often, despite facing minimal DoT damage so far. Hell, ignites aren't even on me the large majority of the time before I pool.
E's self-slow is entirely counter-intuitive. I'd rather them remove the self-slow and enemy slow on full charge. They just cancel each other out and accomplish nothing after Rylai's.

CirrusstrafeMay 4, 201621 votes

And nothing of value was lost.

Sorry, I just hate Vlad as a champion concept so very, very much. Pre based lord and savior Riot 6.9 nerfs he was the most unfun and uninteractive thing in the world to lane against or deal with if he was ahead. When feedback started coming in that he's terrible now I legit busted open a $300 bottle of scotch and drank it slowly as I sat by a fireplace, laughing, for probably four hours. I had to get medical assistance when I threw my back out cackling when I saw that a lot of people say Swain came in weaker as well.

Now if we can just get Garen, Zed, Katarina, and Yi "deleted" too...

In all seriousness, though, new Vlad was made to be way less faceroll suffocating, but he does seem really jank even just on paper and that's just bad for everybody. I hope they tune him so people who actually liked the idea of his niche can play him with success, and that's about as far removed as I can be from bias given his rework.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a "Vlad is dead" holiday to get ratified in the U.S. Vladimir

billxxMay 4, 20164 votes

Like you said, he's just not fun to play against.

CirrusstrafeMay 4, 20168 votes

Ya, as much as I hate fighting Vlad, there are people that actually liked playing as him. I think they're nuts, but they have every right to be mad about his current state and for their sake I hope that he gets "fixt" as it were.

Just, you know, in a way that makes him fun to play, and not anti-fun to play against.

cocacolalipsMay 5, 20166 votes

Heh, he is one of the most accessible and friendly mages of the bunch to fight against.

He doesn't have much range, means you can actually brawl him in a duel, which is a lot more enjoyable than playing Dance Dance Revolution on your own with skillshots from 1K+ range without being able to fight back; He doesn't have any CC either unless you count his escape and again it's melee he has to commit to use it and even then it's only a slow which means you never lose control of your character at any point which is a lot more enjoyable than being stunned/crowdcontrol to death without being able to fight back/react, and he doesn't have much burst either, which means you can always brawl and fight back and not risk being deleted before anything even happens.

And to top it off, his sustain is nothing special given how popular and mainstream lifesteal is.

Compare that to the abominations of Anivia and the like and you want to cry.

WitchQueen AnnieMay 4, 201615 votes

I agree. I just played several games with him.

I did fine in lane without dying but when it came to team fights, the damage and DPS nerf was real. Q did pretty much no damage unless it was empowered (and there's too little control over when its empowered, the window is too short to use).

E is SUPER hard to aim. People would just walk away whenever I have the blood balloons up and if I snap-shot fired it, it does SHIT damage.

He is now super awkward to play with very little pay off. It used to be the case that you would simply kite in team fights with Qs and snapshot Es (both were highly reliable) with tons of damage, the only handicap being range and lack of cc. The old Ult worked very well with that because you could fire it and just keep kiting.

Now its SUPER not fluid because E takes time to charge (people just walk away). If I Ult I can't follow up with any kind of real power because Q won't be empowered and E takes time to charge. It takes way too much work to play him for far too little pay off.

CU DoNNyDarKoMay 5, 20167 votes

I just played my first game with the new vlad and I found him to be completely underwhelming. His Q dmg and heal feel extremely weak, his E feels unreliable and pretty weak unless held for the entire duration which then takes away his ability to kite because it slows him, and then his pool does barely enough dmg to even use it offensively. His crimson rush duration is so short that if you ever miss using one of them than you can't use your E or else you're going to die. The fact that to push a lane you must essentially kill yourself and hope to have a crimson rush Q available to heal back while having a target around is insane. Overall I felt like i didnt even recognize one of my favorite champs who I've played hundreds of games with.

YuGiHoMay 4, 20166 votes

Remove the damage delay on q. they added a 0.5 sec delay on vlads q from where you cast it to where it actually does damage and begins its cooldown. they did not write this in the notes anywhere but if you played vlad before this patch you will notice this. this makes all of vlads damage skills delayed and his healing is delayed(it always was). Why was it the correct decision to make vlad feel more clunky to play.

Regulus ag SunMay 5, 20166 votes

He's completely worthless.

The Crimson Rush MS buff is literally 16. Sixteen MS to have you catch someone. Oh and it rapidly fades.

His E is a worse in every way save for a slow of his old E.

His W is just worse period.

His R is worse in every regard minus the MAYBE 200-300 damage heal you get off of it.

Earlier today I was having trouble killing a 1/6/1 Nasus when I was 60 CS and 6 kills up on him.

He has no damage, barely any sustain, and no control to bring to a fight. Thanks for gutting my favorite champion, Riot. Meanwhile Zed Taric Soraka

NahuiMay 4, 20165 votes

Yes, please tell us more about how Vlad is and what he needs after your extensive gameplay with the rework.

WoonStruckMay 4, 201615 votes

He needed things even before the rework that the rework didn't address, and actually made worse.

Considering his damage and sustain both took a huge hit overall, yes, he does need more. Especially since he can't access the 'best-case' sustain due to how clunky his Q is, and the lack of synergy with his W.

The fact that W is still far, far better for clutch saves proves there are innate problems with his Q, considering how much power was loaded into the Blood Rush passive.

The Q heal is only useful for 1v1s and the occasional 2v1 that you can actually kite.

Keep in mind...how many Qs was Vlad actually able to get off in teamfights prior to the rework before the fight was already decided and outside of Vlad's hands? Considering CD was nerfed, he gets off even fewer still, and only half as many actually do something.

NahuiMay 4, 20162 votes

It was sarcasm. I'm saying with so little experience of the new Vlad, you aren't qualified to start listing off what he needs. Not just yet.

IForgot2buyBootsMay 5, 20164 votes

You only need about 4 games with him to see the repeated, glaring problems with both the mechanics of his kit and the scaling therein. He's even more vulnerable now to grievous wounds and MR, given his damage output nerf and his self healing nerf. Where before you could potentially skip Spirit Visage and build Vlad more damaging, now you HAVE to have it to survive, further reducing your already poor sustained damage. Vlad COULD have survived this if spell vamp hadn't ALSO been removed. The combination of the direct nerf plus the itemization nuke results in Vlad being less effective in a push than a Banner'd Siege Minion. I mean, sure, it's a lot more effective than a normal siege minion... but it's not as effective as a champ.

JMoormannMay 4, 20161 votes

Most of that seem number problems though, which are to be expected after such an update. For now the most important thing is that the kit changes work out positively, after that they can start tweaking the numbers.

AHeroNamedHawkeMay 4, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Most of that seem number problems though, which are to be expected after such an update. For now the most important thing is that the kit changes work out positively, after that they can start tweaking the numbers.

Q movespeed is half a second long and bloodlust mechanic is too telegraphed for 2.5 seconds to be useful

Base sustain is atrocious outside of lane, healing off his ult pop when its a damage amp is an assbackwards design

E gets blocked by minions and tank lines, cant be cast during W and ends W early if used prior to pooling

Q heal is still canceled by pooling, which is a huge problem with how reliant he is on the 3rd one now

Yeah this is going great dude

UltîmaMay 5, 20168 votes

My personal thoughts on Vlad from someone who purchased him as his second character when starting League years ago, and played him moderately ever since, sometimes in ranked...

Passive: I actually like the shift towards health. Vlad being more of an AP Juggernaut is an interesting concept that really fits his theme and the class mechanics. Low mobility, huge DPS and tankyness/sustain.

Q: Currently the Blood Rush passive has far too short of a window for Vlad to do anything but use it immediately in lane after the second charge. There's no way to set this up for a gank or teamfight in any fashion, which means that Vlad never gets to position himself at an advantage even when he gets the drop on someone. That feels really bad. Either the window needs to last longer or the unempowered Q needs a bit more sustain/damage to let Vlad trade.

W: Virtually unchanged and it wasn't Vlad's biggest damage dealing ability by a long shot, so why the numbers got nerfed is a bit beyond me but falls under the "pretty inconsequential" category for me since the move was used either as an escape tool or a means to dodge an opponent's nuke/cc.

E: Considering the huge telegraphed windup on E, and the fact that it can be blocked by units, and it's relatively short range I don't understand why he needs to be slowed while channeling it. There's already a lot of counterplay existing in that skill - the self-slow just makes Vlad feel clunkier than he should.

R: Vlad should get an immediate payoff for using this ultimate since the 10% damage increase is extremely hard to actually use given that the window of opportunity for an optimal use of both Q and E have been narrowed significantly. Getting Blood Rush and an fully charged E while this ult is active to get a fair trade feels restrictive.

They're pushing him in the right direction but he's severely lacking in power and his windows of power are far too telegraphed. Given that he has no execute, no hard cc, no real tools beyond his sustain and power to assert lane dominance he really needs to shine in these departments, which he isn't.

RagingchrisMay 5, 20165 votes

used to main vlad now im throwing him to the garbage

Maokai Has WoodMay 5, 20165 votes

There are some valid points to this post. Vlads sustain is pretty horrendous now, and his team fighting capabilities are not intuitive. Even with a 45% cdr, I found it pointless to even attempt to get an empowered transfusion off on a fight. I was 11/0/4 that game by the way, and the only reason I got that way was their mid laner was late to game and I was a complete jerk about diving him. Building health, I had a protobelt and a visage finished, with a giants belt ready for making a rylias. I only had 142 ap, even with the improved passive. The scaling on his abilities is abysmal and it's so painfully easy to avoid e now. "Oh look, Vlad has a big circle around him that's going to slow him down. I'll just move away and laugh"

CowboyNinjaMay 5, 20163 votes

Yeah if anything his E should speed him up. Vlad is the slowest damn thing in the game, and they just made it worse. We all wanted mobility on Vlad, it was the one thing he was missing. Instead they did the reverse. Dafuq.

Deus ImperatorMay 4, 20164 votes

I havent tested him yet but if thats true then lets see how much his win and use rate plummets so riot buffs him like they said they would do if vladimir changes made him way weaker than before

JerulEonMay 4, 20164 votes

Why are they adding delays to everything? Why are some of the AP changes making champs so clunky? After reading all the posts about how Riot is butchering some of the champs, it's so sad seeing that AD champs are heavily favored.

ShìkìMay 4, 20164 votes

I think Vlad migth just be the worst mage in the game right now. Next time I get top I'll just pick Kennen or Swain, hell, even Morde would propably do a better job than Vlad as a draintank, and Morde didn't even get any compensation for the removal of spellvamp yet.

NeomeaMay 4, 20163 votes

He didn't build WotA anyway if he built any vamp item it was Gunblade which still has it's omnivamp.

AHeroNamedHawkeMay 4, 20164 votes

Wait they didnt even fix the bug where pooling makes you lose your Q heal? You fuckin serious?

chessmanMay 4, 20164 votes

How are you building him? If you look at the changes to his passive, his scaling on his e, and the way his crimson rush healing works, building HP on him is much more valuable now than it was before. He's less of a burst mage and more of an AP bruiser now.

CowboyNinjaMay 5, 20163 votes

That would be true, if the HP to AP scaling where much much higher, but its not nearly enough of a boost. Old Vlad was a better at every format. From Glass canon to strait Tank to in between. The numbers on Vlad right now are just super low. But on top of that, his kit is now the most telegraphed in the game. He literally can't even do damage without help from teammate CC. Oponents who are more mobile, which is literally everyone in the game, can bob and weave out of his damage. He is a joke compared to his former self, which is saying something b/c his former self was already under-tuned.

If he got ahead, sure he was unfun to play against. Just a wall of stats that you couldn't ever kill. But you had plenty of opportunity in the early game to crush him, with many many counter picks or even just solid jungle pressure.

Bobloser3555May 4, 20164 votes

I havent played Vlad yet but I have played against him and he seems weak, I only played against him one game but wtf is that? he dies easy and deals no damage? Maybe that Vlad was just bad not sure.

Jungle Lux GodMay 4, 20164 votes

The important thing to understand about the reworks is that they look more at the gameplay side of the champion's kit rather than the balance side of it.

If Riot tried to balance Vladimir (or any of the mages for that matter), we might not have gotten 6.9 in an efficient time frame, and we might have gotten a lot more balance problems coming from the update than that of the juggernaut and marksmen update combined, and both of those updates were busted as hell.

The important thing to get from these kinds of updates is to see if the champion plays better, not that the champion got buffed. Taking away the numbers, how do you feel about his kit now from a gameplay standpoint?

WitchQueen AnnieMay 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The important thing to understand about the reworks is that they look more at the gameplay side of the champion's kit rather than the balance side of it.

If Riot tried to balance Vladimir (or any of the mages for that matter), we might not have gotten 6.9 in an efficient time frame, and we might have gotten a lot more balance problems coming from the update than that of the juggernaut and marksmen update combined, and both of those updates were busted as hell.

The important thing to get from these kinds of updates is to see if the champion plays better, not that the champion got buffed. Taking away the numbers, how do you feel about his kit now from a gameplay standpoint?

I think E shouldn't slow the user at full charge (it has enough counterplay with the charge time, ANYONE can see you raising a blood balloon and back off). They should also remove the Slow from E in exchange for more damage. The Slow is useless anyways because most Vlads are going to rush Rylais. I would also consider making E Snap-shot fire but still block-able (allowing counterplay) and FIX the health cost and damage at a point between the max damage and min damage as I think it being snap-shot fire would be way more useful to Vlad players for their DPS then the current clumsy charging. I know it takes away some decision-making but right now there's too little oppertunities to use the full cast anyways.

Crimson Rush needs a longer timer for the buff since you can't control WHEN it is up. Think about it... am I going to go... ''Okay, there's a team fight, let's use the First Q on a target, when I get to the fight I'll use my Second Q on a nearby minion and then position myself so that ~SEVEN/FIVE seconds later I'll be near an enemy to hit him with Empowered Q? It's just not REALISTIC and you just can't set up plays like that. You can't predict where you will be or where your enemy will be that many seconds later.

Also... R should get MORE damage amp than pre-rework Vlad (I'd say 15%) and we can do away with the Heal. It's entirely useless, you don't heal if you are in Zhonya or Pool mode anyways. What we need is MORE damage.

Rockm SockmMay 4, 20164 votes

The problem with the new vlad is....

His kit is super loaded to counter play it with no skill ceiling or play making ability for the actual vlad.

His Q has an extremely short window where basicly the only way you get it off is if you ensure minions are going to be up. The healing on it is laughable either way.

His E has innate counter play because you have to charge it forever. This was not enough for Riot. Now you have to charge it, and line it up because it can be blocked as well. This was also not enough for riot so it slows you down when fully charged.

His ult is a joke in it's current state. The hit box is insanely small ensuring you will never hit more than one or two targets.

junglerboy16May 5, 20164 votes

I think the healing delay on his Q is problematic like you've stated, but managing the empowered charge makes him more interesting.

The place he really feels lacking right now is his E. It costs as much as 10% MAX health (not even current health) yet has a pathetic base damage of only 140 at rank 5. I would be MUCH happier with the ability if it scaled from 5-10% max health cost but had a base damage and ratio about 50% higher (increasing to double damage after the charge up).

Honestly, I'd even prefer they cut the self slow and slow on release for the max charge. It is redundant and empty power considering his W already slows and they don't stack. Heck they could even make his W slow scale with ranks in E if they wanted, but trade the false power of a conditional slow for some reliable DPS/Burst.

WitchQueen AnnieMay 5, 20164 votes

His laning is actually quite strong. Just this morning I held my own against Gold Zeds and Talons in the Mid lane. I didn't die at all and kept up in CS and my sustain and tactical play frustrated them so they went roaming.

But then laning phase ended...

and my DPS in team fights SUCKED compared to old Vlad... like horribly bad...

CowboyNinjaMay 5, 20163 votes

Exactly. I'd much rather go back to getting shit on in lane, and then having a godly late game.

Masala ChaiMay 5, 20164 votes

Lol his midlane winrate according to op.gg is 44.29%, that's pretty shit Toplane isn't much better at 47.69%

Granted the patch has only been out for a day.

BorsalinoMay 5, 20164 votes

I thought this was just me, but his CD's are far too high without max CD reduction. His E uses far too much HP.

KACEYTRONxSMURFMay 5, 20164 votes

Vlad's kit is so much worse from the e changed and lack of spellvamp. He needs to take so much damage from his e in order to waveclear properly, whereas before he would get lots of his health back from spellvamp.

CowboyNinjaMay 5, 20165 votes

That's the worst. It used to be so satisifying to E into a giant wave late game and just go from 10%-100% in one E. Now if you did that you wouldn't even clear the wave, and it would kill you. Old Vlad was under-tuned, but at least his late game was godly. Now he's got nothing.

JESUSSAYSNOMay 5, 20164 votes

I made this thread yesterday and got no exposure and downvoted. Agreed.

XonraMay 5, 20164 votes

I can actually sustain a near equal amount as Vlad with Morg now at later levels in team fights. I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen with only 15% (without runes/masteries) spellvamp on her passive. I don't think he feels bad, but he doesn't feel like the same Vlad, and more like "So uh, this works, right?" as if this wasn't the final product of Vlad.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 4, 20163 votes

I played against him and I can say that at least hes not oppressive in lane now.

AHeroNamedHawkeMay 4, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I played against him and I can say that at least hes not oppressive in lane now.

He wasnt oppressive in lane before, you just had to not play like a bitch pre 9

WitchQueen AnnieMay 5, 20163 votes

This ''rework'' is a complete disgrace. I'd rather play Old Vlad without Spell Vamp.

ZT XperimentorMay 5, 20162 votes

Not to mention they also nerfed the damage amplification on his ultimate too; used to be 12% but got dropped to 10%. Another rework in need of being reverted, since riot can't keep their bias out of any balancing. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

WitchQueen AnnieMay 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tov7snXo,comment-id=0038,timestamp=2016-05-05T07:27:57.876+0000)

Not to mention they also nerfed the damage amplification on his ultimate too; used to be 12% but got dropped to 10%. Another rework in need of being reverted, since riot can't keep their bias out of any balancing. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

100% correct

CowboyNinjaMay 5, 20164 votes

That's what it feels like right? A bunch of people who really hate playing vs. Vlad wanted to take a giant crap on him despite his winrate already being trash, and then tried to figure out what they could do to call it "fair" or "smart counterplay".

Vellich0rMay 5, 20161 votes

Are we talking about the same vlad? The one who does 1k with his E and 700 with his empower Q on a bad day?

Regulus ag SunMay 5, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Taric Winters,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tov7snXo,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2016-05-05T01:39:46.485+0000)

Are we talking about the same vlad? The one who does 1k with his E and 700 with his empower Q on a bad day?

Yeah, the incredibly telegraphed and slow moving E that can be blocked by anything? I am indeed also talking about the Q that is impossible to hit on decent opponents.

IGII2May 5, 20161 votes

I like his rework, he can legitimately jungle now. His late game charged E does SO MUCH damage.

His Q feels like complete joke tho. It's just good for that %missing hp heal.

I don't like his ult change either, feels so weak now (even when you manage to ult 5 people).

I don't won't to be lying, but he used to not recieve healing from his Q if you turned untargetable (pool or zhonya's), is the ult healing treated the same? I didn't really notice, but if so, they should probably change it along with his Q.

Other than these little complaints, I find Vladimir rework to be a success.

WoonStruckMay 5, 20164 votes

Vlad's rework did nothing to fix his previous prohibitive issues while adding new ones.

I'd hardly call anyone with a .5 second 16 MS buff a on a buff they're now extremely reliant on a 'success'. That's probably only there so Riot can scream "POWERBUDGET" and keep him artificially weaker. Same with the E slow, which they could remove along with the self-slow, as they cancel out. Same with the Q delay nerf. Same with the W delay nerf, both on start-up and exit. Hell, that's the only reason they added the heal on his ult...so they can scream LOOK AT THAT SUSTAIN, when his effective sustain and damage are garbage now.