-He deal half of your HP with his silence you cant do anything and then he deal 700 true damage on you!!
But hey Garen cant have 2.5seconds Silence because his spin would be able to stick on the target!!
Rito logic boys and girls!!
DrMarshSwamp48 votesAs opposed to Garen Silencing you, getting his full Judgement off while you barely tickle him, and then ulting you for stupid amounts of damage due to all that health he ticked off?
While Cho'Gath needs work done on him don't assume Garen was completely fine either.
OperationDEEZ16 votesHe wasn't. He's just pointing out Cho can be built full burst mage and still have at least 4k health.
DrMarshSwamp29 votesHe wasn't. He's just pointing out Cho can be built full burst mage and still have at least 4k health.
No he wasn't, he was complaining that Cho'Gath's Silence can deal half your damage and he can follow up with his ult to finish you off.
While this is a valid complaint to me it was worded like OP thought Garen's combo was completely fair, which is complete horseshit in my opinion.
I Main Swain1 votesyou can build him full burst mage if you want but you'll get blown up. it doesnt matter if you have 4k hp, you'll still get blown up.
RogueWill3 votes
explain me again how come you will get blown up easily?
I Main Swain2 votes
that's why. i play a whole lot of chogath and i can attest, he isn't very hard to deal with if you dodge his q and get some penetrations.
Phuc Dat Bich4 votesAs opposed to Garen Silencing you, getting his full Judgement off while you barely tickle him, and then ulting you for stupid amounts of damage due to all that health he ticked off?
While Cho'Gath needs work done on him don't assume Garen was completely fine either.
Yeah Cho use silence from 700 range way....Garen need to come at melee range to use silence...yeah man i guess cho need more work....
And lets not even forget that Cho can slow you but i put it out because hey its skill shot that can be avoided...
Plus you talk about Ulti damage? hmm? 700 true damage with a single rabadon Vs magic damage ulti base on missing hp~!
What stronger?
DrMarshSwamp25 votes[{quoted}](name=Yeshua HAMASHIAJ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm52eJ4z,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-08-08T23:58:43.674+0000)
Yeah Cho use silence from 500 range way....Garen need to come at melee range to use silence...yeah man i guess cho need more work....
And lets not even forget that Cho can slow you but i put it out because hey its skill shot that can be avoided...
Plus you talk about Ulti damage? hmm? 700 true damage with a single rabadon Vs magic damage ulti base on missing hp~!
What stronger?
Good thing you conveniently left out that Cho'Gath's slow is tied to an AoE ability with a visual warning and a noticeable delay, how he has to be in melee range to use Feast on you, and how Garen's Q also gives him a massive speed-boost along with his ult having a higher range than Cho'Gath's ult.
Smitty Manjensen5 votesGood thing you conveniently left out that Cho'Gath's slow is tied to an AoE ability with a visual warning and a noticeable delay, how he has to be in melee range to use Feast on you, and how Garen's Q also gives him a massive speed-boost along with his ult having a higher range than Cho'Gath's ult.
I love how you're defending cho and comparing their silences while they have 1 big difference, and it's not that chos is ranged and garens is melee, it's actually that chos is fakin' AOE 2.5 sec silence which deals pretty high amounts of AOE damage.
Phuc Dat Bich3 votesGood thing you conveniently left out that Cho'Gath's slow is tied to an AoE ability with a visual warning and a noticeable delay, how he has to be in melee range to use Feast on you, and how Garen's Q also gives him a massive speed-boost along with his ult having a higher range than Cho'Gath's ult.
Cho Silence =AOE 2.5 SECONDS THAT CAN SILENCE THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM FROM 700 RANGE Plus Cho have 2 more CC on his Q that can easily help him to do his combo!
Garens Silence=Melee single target ability that can only silence one person and its needed because garen have no other CC on his kit
Cho silence damage MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 70% AP)
Garens Silence damage Bonus Physical damage 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+ 40% AD) So that mean in order Garens Q to much the damage of Chogaths W it will require garen to have 145 AD But whait there is more!! The Ratios help CHOGATH more! plus its always more easy to build tons of AP than tons of AD!
Do i need to continute?
Ok then you say that garens ulti have massive range? garen ulti have 400 range....LESS THAN ANY RANGE CHAMPION!! so their ultis are the same both of them cant hit their ultis on some person who is not melee!! So gtfo from here please and before you talk learn about the champs!
DrMarshSwamp9 votes[{quoted}](name=Yeshua HAMASHIAJ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm52eJ4z,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-09T02:44:55.435+0000)
Cho Silence =AOE 2.5 SECONDS THAT CAN SILENCE THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM FROM 700 RANGE Plus Cho have 2 more CC on his Q that can easily help him to do his combo!
Garens Silence=Melee single target ability that can only silence one person and its needed because garen have no other CC on his kit
Cho silence damage MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 70% AP)
Garens Silence damage Bonus Physical damage 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+ 40% AD) So that mean in order Garens Q to much the damage of Chogaths W it will require garen to have 145 AD But whait there is more!! The Ratios help CHOGATH more! plus its always more easy to build tons of AP than tons of AD!
Do i need to continute?
Ok then you say that garens ulti have massive range? garen ulti have 400 range....LESS THAN ANY RANGE CHAMPION!! so their ultis are the same both of them cant hit their ultis on some person who is not melee!! So gtfo from here please and before you talk learn about the champs!
Cho'Gath's 2 CC AoE Ability is still something that has a long enough delay that anyone with Tier 2+ Boots can just walk right out of, with absolutely nothing in his kit to help him secure it.
Cho'Gath's Feral Scream also only has the Silence and damage going for it, and is on a longer cooldown than Garen's Silence which also gives him 35% bonus movement speed and cleanses all slows effecting him on it's cast.
I never said Garen's ult had massive range, I said it had a higher range than Cho'Gath's Feast which is the ability that literally requires you to be in melee range to hit it, where as Garen has more of chance to use his on any champion due to the extended range.
And most ADC's have only 500 or higher attack range, something Garen can easily catch up to with his Q considering it's duration and movepseed boost, let alone get in range for his ult.
Look man I'm not disagreeing that Cho'Gath needs some work done on him, that his damage is too high even when he builds pure tank, but I am disagreeing that Garen is alright in the balance department.
Fact of the matter is both of them have bullshit inside them and I don't like how you only focus on Cho'Gath's BS without acknowledging Garen's.
Phuc Dat Bich2 votesMy problem is with riot that allow CHO to have true damage ulti and 2.5 AOE silence but if garen have 2.5 single target ability it need to be nerfed to the ground!!
It make no sense when this 2 champions are both tanks or what ever riot try to make garen now they both need their silence for their combo but only one champion recieve nerfs while the other remain untouched when his silence is ALOT STRONGer than garens!!
That my problem and that was my post!! That riot complete ignore chogath and the explaination they give for the reason of the garens silence nerf make no sense because CHOGATH have it and its alot stronger but i dont see any nerfs !!
Cosnirak6 votes"My problem is with riot that allow CHO to have true damage ulti and 2.5 AOE silence but if garen have 2.5 single target ability it need to be nerfed to the ground!!"
Except they aren't nerfing Garen to the ground and they're giving Garen at least an occasional true damage ult himself.
"but only one champion recieve nerfs while the other remain untouched when his silence is ALOT STRONGer than garens!!"
If you have balance concerns about Cho, voice them. If you have balance concerns about Garen, voice them. But trying to compare them to each other to justify your concerns is a waste of time.
RogueWill2 votesNot really, you silence and then knock up or knock up and then silence, enough time for he to come close and ult you. With garen at least you could be saved by teamates since it will take full 2.5sec for him to killl you, a good cho can pretty much instakill you and there isn't much your teamates can do
RiotRiotRepertoir20 votesIt's hard to tell here whether your argument is "Since Garen's silence duration is being nerfed, Cho'Gath's silence should also be nerfed" or "Riot shouldn't be nerfing Garen's silence duration because Cho'Gath's is longer" or "Garen's silence needs to be 2.5 seconds so he can hit his full spin more reliably" or even something else I suppose.
I'd be happy to talk about whichever it is that you're interested in, though.
Ramuhdo2 votesHonestly, Cho'Gath entire is a bit silly. If you compare his Q to Veigar's W, you'll see Veigar has (at max rank) 15 more base damage and 1s less cooldown, but Cho'Gath has 50 more range, 62.5 larger radius, a knock up and a slow attached. I'll trade 15 base damage and 1s cooldown for a longer-ranged, larger AoE with two CCs attached to it any day!
I'm honestly not sure why Cho and Veigar have such similar abilities, except Cho's is strictly better than Veigar's spell. Early Veigar has a Mana cost and base damage advantage (but a large cooldown disadvantage), but is that really worth being so much worse at max rank? (Given Cho probably maxes Q before Veigar maxes W?)
On the topic of Cho's Silence, Malzahar's is 3 seconds, so I don't think it's a fair argument to nerf Cho based on Garen's Silence duration because there's a worse offender. Cho's is easier to land, though, but requires you to be close. Probably fair, because outside his Q he's a close-range mage with zero mobility. He could use the Silence, since it prevents his prey from using their escape tools for 2.5 seconds. I feel like Garen ought to be in a similar spot, since outside of the Q speed boost he doesn't have in-built mobility.
Garen's Q is pretty telegraphed and single-target, where his Spin-to-Win deals reduced damage to multiple targets. What distinction makes the longer duration OK on Cho'Gath but not OK on Garen?
Vistha Kai5 votesWhat he means are double standards, although OP's example is wrong, because Cho'Gath's Silence doesn't really help him land all of his abilities.
I'd rather use Morgana who supposedly requires a 3 second snare to chain all of her abilities. Something Garen is apparently not allowed to do, despite the counterplay in this case is much higher.
Once Morgana his the binding you are done for, no exceptions. Meanwhile Garen has to first close the gap and then not get kited.
Jofeyy2 votesBut if morgana misses the binding she cant do very much else to be fair.
1011001110003 votesMorgana still has her spell shield to fall back on defensively, and in teamfights, her Q isn't mandatory for connecting with her ult in the slightest.
Nublord1 votesIt's hard to tell here whether your argument is "Since Garen's silence duration is being nerfed, Cho'Gath's silence should also be nerfed" or "Riot shouldn't be nerfing Garen's silence duration because Cho'Gath's is longer" or "Garen's silence needs to be 2.5 seconds so he can hit his full spin more reliably" or even something else I suppose.
I'd be happy to talk about whichever it is that you're interested in, though.
Garen silence needs to be longer than 1.5 seconds. It's single target aa buff on one next hit with very loud and clear sound which warn enemy beforehand and it have long animation. 1.5 seconds is not enough for all the trouble he have to go just to hit it on right target in tfs.
And if you are afraid about his Lane Power, then make silence duration scale with his lvl or something else. Stacks of E, % of his hp, enemy AP, enemy around, ally around, salty comments in /all chat... Anything at all just make it more reliable.
RiotRiotRepertoir7 votesLane silence isn't actually really an issue at all. It's still the same at rank 1, after all.
This discussion does seem to keep coming back to some players saying "trust us, his silence duration needs to be what it's always been" and me saying "trust me, I don't think it does anymore when he does more damage."
I understand that that's an uncomfortable situation for you guys to be in, and I don't mind talking having the discussion really. Since Garen went on PBE about a week ago, there were some changes that, following discussion with you guys, didn't seem like the right changes, and I tweaked some and reverted others. That said, there are some changes that I think are important for hitting the goals of his changes, like being more about damage in the late game, and less about his silence.
The Yetii Rider1 votesLane silence isn't actually really an issue at all. It's still the same at rank 1, after all.
This discussion does seem to keep coming back to some players saying "trust us, his silence duration needs to be what it's always been" and me saying "trust me, I don't think it does anymore when he does more damage."
I understand that that's an uncomfortable situation for you guys to be in, and I don't mind talking having the discussion really. Since Garen went on PBE about a week ago, there were some changes that, following discussion with you guys, didn't seem like the right changes, and I tweaked some and reverted others. That said, there are some changes that I think are important for hitting the goals of his changes, like being more about damage in the late game, and less about his silence.
I guess the problem people are having is that you are taking away part of his ability to be a tank (with lots of disruption) by removing his long duration CC, his Tenacity that allows him to more easily charge into a team, and lowering his damage to an entire group.
As it stands, with his high single target burst damage and his true damage to the Villain, it feels like you're moving Garen towards being a tanky assassin whose main job is to run at the Villain, silence him, smash with E a bit and then execute (and then die).
I guess I'm confused because I'm 90% sure Meddler said that tanky assassins were bad for the game, and that's why Diana is so hard to balance (and why Riot had to nerf Tank Ekko).
You want this guy to be a juggernaut, with lots of sustained damage, but his damage is so much higher when he's against a single target that it seems more likely that this guy will end up being played as an assassin. Perhaps if you returned some of his team fighting power so that he could be more disruptive or deal more damage to multiple units like Darius and Mordekaiser...but if that's missing the mark on your rework then I don't know what to say other than "Riot took a stance against tanky assassins and your rework seems to be going against that".
RiotRiotRepertoir4 votesYou want this guy to be a juggernaut, with lots of sustained damage, but his damage is so much higher when he's against a single target that it seems more likely that this guy will end up being played as an assassin.
Though he will now do a lot of damage to a target, Garen lacks the mobility profile and target selection of a real assassin. Assassins get to blink or dash to where they want to be, try to kill a guy, and then get out, and they often have the tools to do all that. Garen has to run at a guy, stick to them for 3 seconds, and then run away. As such, I don't really see him as an assassin.
The Yetii Rider1 votesThough he will now do a lot of damage to a target, Garen lacks the mobility profile and target selection of a real assassin. Assassins get to blink or dash to where they want to be, try to kill a guy, and then get out, and they often have the tools to do all that. Garen has to run at a guy, stick to them for 3 seconds, and then run away. As such, I don't really see him as an assassin.
Okay, that's fair. The question then becomes: What IS your vision for Garen here?
You want the juggernauts to be unique. Makes sense. So, Garen is supposed to be a tanky damage dealer with poor initiation, low crowd control, who does a lot of single target damage to a fed enemy (but not as much as Mordekaiser) and a little bit of damage to the rest of the enemy team (but not as much as Darius).
Don't get me wrong, the Villain mechanic is cool and I bet it's going to be really useful, but I don't feel like the reward for a juggernaut managing to get to his target should be large single-target damage.
If it works consistently, then Garen is a tanky assassin, pure and simple. If he is able to reliably reach his target and execute them, then he is a more toxic, more team reliant Diana, and the counterplay to his kit relies on interactions with his teammates, not with him.
If it does not work consistently, then Garen's reward for reaching the enemy team with the help of his teammates is maybe killing the Villain and dealing some AOE damage to the rest of the enemy team with his E. If they don't CC him, or shield it, or just move out of the way.
You want Garen to have a stronger boost for actually reaching the enemy team. He's less sticky but he's more greatly rewarded for sticking. But only against one person.
It just seems counterintuitive. A juggernaut should be like a DPS version of a tank, where rather than crowd control, it's their massive potential to disrupt a team by raw AOE damage that should terrify the enemy and force them to be removed as a threat.
But Garen's AOE ability is spread out over 3 seconds, easily kitable, short range, and deals less damage to multiple units.
I don't know, maybe I'm just not seeing the reward here. Please explain it to me. If this rework works out EXACTLY as you intend it to, what is the highlight of Garen's gameplay supposed to look like?
RiotRiotRepertoir3 votesIf this rework works out EXACTLY as you intend it to, what is the highlight of Garen's gameplay supposed to look like?
Garen does the baseline stuff of a Juggernaut (tanky, high damage, low mobility profile) with some additional assassin-like tendencies against a single, semi-random target.
When I think about what these Juggernauts are, they should all be really tanky, they should all deal high damage to the enemy team, and they should all be relatively immobile, PLUS one or two additional differentiating aspects (Villainy, in Garen's case).
Maybe the "increased damage when hitting a single target" doesn't send a perfect message, but Garen's damage in teamfights should still be on par or higher than these other guys. I expect his aoe damage to still be really high despite that addition.
The Yetii Rider1 votesGaren does the baseline stuff of a Juggernaut (tanky, high damage, low mobility profile) with some additional assassin-like tendencies against a single, semi-random target.
When I think about what these Juggernauts are, they should all be really tanky, they should all deal high damage to the enemy team, and they should all be relatively immobile, PLUS one or two additional differentiating aspects (Villainy, in Garen's case).
Maybe the "increased damage when hitting a single target" doesn't send a perfect message, but Garen's damage in teamfights should still be on par or higher than these other guys. I expect his aoe damage to still be really high despite that addition.
Well, I mean, not only is Garen's engage unreliable, but his AOE damage is unreliable as well. He can't have it turned off through silence or interrupting channels, which is good, but it's still pretty easy to just dash away from it, and then he either shuts it off early (which he can't do if he's silenced/stunned, I would imagine) or he has to deal with the full cooldown and have nothing but single target for the next 9 seconds.
Maybe you could make his W more interesting with some more AOE damage? You did talk about adding some AP ratios to Garen's kit. What about giving him a melee range AOE damage field like Jayce's Hammer W? That would be some more reliable AOE damage that would reward Garen for getting into the fight, and also replace some of the power he lost when you took away his Tenacity.
RiotRiotRepertoir4 votesI really do want to make his W active more interesting in the future, if I get a chance to come back to it and power permits.
Cosnirak1 votesWhat if killing someone with his R reset the cd on his E? The problem seems to be that his sustained aoe damage is lacking in realistic situations. This way he could attempt his full combo and the enemy team has to really respect that beyond just not getting their villain killed. It would force them to actually deal with him directly a bit more and add more reward to him pulling off his thing which incentivizes your team to help make it happen. It scales great the later and more team fighty the game goes. Adds big potential to his ability to disrupt an enemy team trying to do dragon or baron even if his whole team isn't there to back him up.
My main concern is that if it requires him to kill the villain specifically to get the reset it won't occur often enough to be more than a pipe dream for most but if it doesn't require that it'll be too easy because in many cases he can just ult the support or something and it could prove too strong. There's also concern that all too often it'll be disappointing because he'll have little or no cd left on his E when he ults.
Another possibility I just thought of is perhaps rewarding his ult killing the villain in some other way like giving him a temporary "righteous fury" buff that causes any enemy champions that damage him to take 10% of that damage themselves.
It could go a lot of directions really in terms of detail but I suggest it resulting in at least potential aoe damage to the enemy team in some form.
Going potentially out of your way to kill the villain specifically with your ult shouldn't ever make you feel like you wasted it and now can't do much else to help your team win the rest of the fight. I particularly like tying it into helping him survive the rest of the fight as well (through tankyness or a disincentive to the enemy team hitting him) and if it disrupts the enemy team from doing their game plan in some way all the better.
o0O Madoka O0o1 votesI really do want to make his W active more interesting in the future, if I get a chance to come back to it and power permits.
Activate his W will also activate his passive, and prevent it from being interupted for the duration.
(It still automatically drops off after W ends if Garen was hit within the duration.)
How does that sound?
rG Thundrag1 votesI really do want to make his W active more interesting in the future, if I get a chance to come back to it and power permits.
Can I ask you a question, any plans on making garen w stacking itself over time on hard to farm game modes like dominion and howling abyss?
A grizzy bear1 votesIf you are looking to make an ability that is meant to be used to help Garen be tanky, why not make the ability have some sort of benefit by being used in combat? I have played quite a few Garen games and all I see the ability as is a way to avoid burst damage. When you feel the damage from the other champ is going to come, you use it to win the trade, that's it. Why not make the ability really play into the idea of someone who likes to stay in combat like his new kit will be rewarding.
If there were changes making it so that it increases his resists like it did before, BUT only during the active and having a mechanic where every hit hit/amount of damage dealt increased his resists further. Or by making it's cooldown reduced for each hit he takes during the duration.
Also side note, to add to the whole crushing villain idea, make his w give him MS every-time he gets hit by the villain? As he has the "courage" to take them on?
agbudar1 votesim both excited about the damage garen's E is going to give and also a bit scared it will probably be too much... don't give me something that you will later on take away please.
RiotRiotRepertoir4 votesIf it turns out Garen is too strong following his update, I'd prefer to nerf his Q speed or base MS slightly over hurting his damage.
EnderForHegemon2 votesThis reply, along with everything in this thread makes me REALLY ANXIOUS as a garen player who has always loved his ultra tank/regen lategame fantasy, and who achieved tier 5 mastery spamming jungle garen games when the mastery system was just released.
I'm cringing to see that you're removing his fulltank W hyperscaling, because that was THE endgame fantasy for me as a Garen player. I like to play champions who can tank like gods, and go anywhere on the map with semi-impunity. Udyr was my go-to in season 3, and if I were better at Mundo, and could get him out of a weak lane earlygame, I'd love him too, but Garen is my go-to. Playing all of these characters as hypertanks, I didn't mind lacking damage, because I was having too much fun being in the enemy's face.
The follow-up post that you just made here is painful too, because in addition to losing some hypertank, your go-to nerfspot is his mobility, after he already lost his tenacity. I think that if those changes go through, I won't be able to play Garen anymore. They dictate that in the lategame I have to stay close enough to my team that they can bail me out of a bad situation, instead of being able to struggle away on my own while my team secures an objective.
Overall, I adore Garen as my go-to splitpushing hypertank, who draws the enemy team to me, while my team can secure an objective, and I feel like you have a totally different vision for him as a damage threat juggernaught with high, but limited tankiness, and reduced mobility/escape.
Cosnirak1 votesI feel pretty much the same as EnderForHegemon (love that name btw, big fan of all the Ender books). The only thing I feel different about is that I'll probably still play him after the change even if he's rather different as long as he's fun. But it won't be the same, that's for sure. And I don't know what champion I'll be able to enjoy in that way anymore. Like EnderForHegemon I can't seem to do as well with Mundo, partly because his laning phase feels so weak (though I LOVE playing him in ARAM cause it helps a lot with that).
As Garen I love seeing 3-4 enemy champions approach when I'm alone (in the late game) and knowing that they have 0 chance of killing me because I can just hit Q and W if needed and even if I have to run from their 2nd top turret to our top inhib turret I can actually make it there alive. I go around face checking brushes, deep warding, and split pushing recklessly because it helps my team and I can get away with it. I scale so well into 5v5s with Locket, Sunfire, and Black Cleaver. My ult ensures whatever damage threat on their team is a problem dies first and fast.
A perfect example of all this is a game I just played last night. I was a terrifying juggernaut and the only way I died in the late game was when I ran into 5 enemies just outside their base with my team out of reach (and they had to use a lot of ults and summoners lol) and when I dove through multiple turrets to finish people off because it was fun and I knew we'd win no matter how reckless I got.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1914368021/205653398?tab=overview
I had 0 ad from runes/masteries, built that Youmuu's last, and still did only 4k less damage to champions than our adc who was #1 in damage to champs in the game. Good times.
Earl Eulrich1 votesthe main thing here is: isn´t the main focus on your juggernaut rework that they should be really rewarded for closing the gap? so what´s wrong with Garen unleashing his full combo within the silence once he got close? Closing in on Vayne just to get shoved aside again before you can even think about ulting her down won´t surly ever make Garen viable...
RiotRiotRepertoir8 votesThey should indeed be rewarded for getting on top of a target, and in most cases following the update, I'd expect a late game Garen to easily kill a late game Vayne in a 1.5 second silence if he manages to close the gap and get a silence off on her.
JusticePauldrons2 votesregardless of what has been said here I would like to say that with the reverting of the nerfs to the E slow and the passive nerf Garen looks like he can finally succeed at his job again. Nerfing the aoe damage of the spin and trading that out for the new ult passive and E damage increase is fair. As someone who mains garen I can say that even with the silence nerfed, letting us be able to close the gap again without kiting outselves with E is all we really wanted. Sure we will take a hit to base stats, the silence and aoe damage. But the amount we get in trade for the ultimate passive and the increased ticks of judgement is more than fair and I appreciate you guys for listening to our feedback here.
Silencing for 3 seconds isn't a core part of Garen's identity, no one thinks of garen and goes "that guy who can silence you". No, they think a spinning death blade who will drop a sword on your head. With that said: Garen DOES need some form of CC, and with that in mind I am glad you guys are letting us keep the silence, albeit in a weakened state.
Thryale1 voteskilling anyone in 1.5 secs is assassin tier damage. a tanky champ like garen that can soak damage from everyone and still being able to assassinate any squishy in 1.5 secs is ludicrous.
Cosnirak2 votesNot when the person you're killing is a squishy that you silenced and you had to somehow surprise or have your teammates cc long enough to get into melee range of them. Also he's probably not going to build quite as tanky post update in order to achieve that damage, which will mean he's maybe not so able to soak damage from everyone.
Thryale1 votesI just played a game where I had a randuins and sunfire as nunu, and the enemy garen was still shredding me with just a black cleaver for damage. (rest of his items were tank stuff like randuins, sunfire, spirit visage etc)
If garen can do that now, he won't need to build dmg when this rework comes thru.
Cosnirak1 votes"If garen can do that now, he won't need to build dmg when this rework comes thru."
The thing is he won't be as tanky regardless of what he builds. This will incentivize people to build more damage on him I think. Ideally his numbers will be balanced with that in mind. I'm not 100% up to date on all the latest details of his changes though and we gotta remember the new juggernaut items coming out as well.
More importantly though is that killing anyone in 1.5 seconds isn't actually the hallmark of an assassin in league (nor actually how long it'll take Garen to kill people :p ). It's just how fast squishies die to anyone that does good damage really. ADCs and mages often kill each other that fast in the late game.
League sadly seems to consider champions assassins if they can do that kind of damage AND get in and out of fights easily. Because nothing says 'high risk, high reward' like taking out all of the risk and none of the reward, right Riot....? -_-
Pretty Dhizi2 votesIt's hard to tell here whether your argument is "Since Garen's silence duration is being nerfed, Cho'Gath's silence should also be nerfed" or "Riot shouldn't be nerfing Garen's silence duration because Cho'Gath's is longer" or "Garen's silence needs to be 2.5 seconds so he can hit his full spin more reliably" or even something else I suppose.
I'd be happy to talk about whichever it is that you're interested in, though.
The community was promised that Garens silence wouldn't be touched. In any form or way. I really did trust that to stick, but having one second chunked off of it? He has no CC other than that silence. It's his only reliable way currently after the upcoming 'rework' that will allow him to stick to an enemy champion. It doesn't make any sense for his silence to get nuked like this. It's hard to hold trust in a company I love when they can't keep a small promise like that.
Even though comparing Garen's silence to Chogaths doesn't really make complete sense, why is it that Chogath gets a knockup, a severely strong slow, a AoE 2.5 second silence, along with a guaranteed, a instantaneous true-damage ultimate with a 70% AP scaling that also grows in range, along with a stacking health benefit? Doesn't that just SCREAM overloaded? while Garen..he gets a 1.5 second silence in his entire kit, and is forced to be only useful against a SOLE target due to the new 'villain' mechanic.
Garen deserves, needs, and SHOULD, keep his 2.5 second silence. Keep its scaling, that at least keeps it beneficially fair -- and don't argue that it isn't fair. He doesn't have nearly as much CC as any other champion out there. He relies on that for his safety and stick. This is especially the case with E making him SLOWER if he ticks an enemy with a hit. It's literally going to make him too immobile to stick to any champion. I can't believe that the reasoning behind Garens silence getting nerfed is 'to get his full combo off'.
ANYONE, can get their full combo off, if they're able to catch an opponent off guard. Hello? Where do you think the Garen in a Bush joke came from? His stick when catching an opponent off-guard is 100% deserved. If you get outplayed and walk into a trap or awaiting enemy champion, you DESERVE, to get full-combo'd, resulting in your death.
Seriously. Rethink your method here, Repertoir. You've always been reliable in your position -- I know, i've followed and loved the work you've done. But I know well enough that YOU know, tearing the silence from his kit when everyone was promised it would stay (BECAUSE it's his ONLY CC) is a stupid, and rash decision.
If you look at Garen in comparison to Cho, like others have mentioned here..How exactly is it fair that Cho gets 3 CC capabilities, one of them being a hard CC at that, and a true-damage nuke with SCALING? And a health-raising benefit? While Garen gets a fixed damage execute which is worthless unless the enemy is below 30% health.
While we're at it. Could we talk about the revert on Garens W? I thought this was addressed simply under the reasoning of 'scaling/stacking benefits are toxic'? What was wrong with Garen's W as it currently is? You're making him squishier and more worthless -- Taking his W destroys his late-game durability scaling. This didn't need to change either. No offense..But Garen was 100% healthy, and fine as-is. All he needed were QoL changes, or late-game buffs...Not complete and utter gutting.
RiotRiotRepertoir11 votesThe community was promised that Garens silence wouldn't be touched. In any form or way.
From what I understand, any messaging about Garen's update said his Silence would still be there, not necessarily that it would go untouched in any way, shape, or form. Can you show me where we said that? Because that seems like a big goof up on our end if that's the case. So, on that topic, yeah, no one should have promised that :(
If you look at Garen in comparison to Cho, like others have mentioned here..How exactly is it fair that Cho gets 3 CC capabilities, one of them being a hard CC at that, and a true-damage nuke with SCALING? And a health-raising benefit? While Garen gets a fixed damage execute which is worthless unless the enemy is below 30% health.
Though historically we haven't made many efforts to differentiate between tanks like Cho'Gath and tanky guys like Garen, we're trying to establish that differentiation to some extent. Though we haven't really investigated Cho'Gath directly yet, he falls much more toward the general idea of what a tank is. Durable, heavy crowd control, and low sustained damage (though his sustained damage may be too high for this to be true). Garen, on the other hand, is being pushed toward a much higher sustained damage pattern than he's ever had in the past, to the point that we're classifying him as a carry. I think we can probably agree that carries shouldn't have a high level of crowd control, though it doesn't necessarily follow that a 2.5 second silence is a 'high level of crowd control.' Maybe Cho does too much damage for a tank or is unfair in some other way (like his silence duration), but it's probably not the best idea to reduce Cho's silence duration because we're reducing Garen's, and it's also probably not the best idea to think we have to leave Garen's silence alone because there are other characters whose silences are longer.
I will say this about the duration reduction on Garen's silence. I lowered it to a duration that felt fair given the higher damage the character will now do. Is 1.5 seconds too low? Possibly, but it definitely wasn't reduced because Riot doesn't like silence. With his upcoming changes, we're trying to put him in a spot where he can be seen as a real threat, and less of a guy whose usefulness falls off dramatically as the game goes on. If we're not hitting that mark after his release, I'll try to calibrate upward.
While we're at it. Could we talk about the revert on Garens W? I thought this was addressed simply under the reasoning of 'scaling/stacking benefits are toxic'? What was wrong with Garen's W as it currently is? You're making him squishier and more worthless -- Taking his W destroys his late-game durability scaling. This didn't need to change either. No offense..But Garen was 100% healthy, and fine as-is. All he needed were QoL changes, or late-game buffs...Not complete and utter gutting.
This update aims to increase Garen's affinity for Health items, and flat resistances are a good way to do that. Maybe this just reads as a nerf or something, but in almost all cases, it's just not. I sure don't think 'scaling/stacking benefits are toxic,' and if that was formerly our stance, we have changed a lot in the past few years, and the game has too. Overall, he should not be squishier, except in the case of full tank builds. As to 'complete and utter gutting,' that seems to imply the character is going to fall to a sub 45% win rate or something. With the changes going in, I'd be truly surprised if it was closer to 45% than 55%. I could be wrong here, but we're definitely not aiming for a gutting, or even a nerf at all. If he comes out and proves to be weak, I'll be happy to admit we missed the mark on him, and buff him up a bit, probably in places where we took some stuff away.
Auryiel3 votesI wish you were in charge of the Morde rework like omfg how much more open and nice can you be? ;-;
ElJanitorFrank12 votesJust because they don't fix EVERY SINGLE problem all at once doesn't mean you should complain about their logic.
Kãtãrinã10 votesmaybe cho is next on the rito hit list
Knalxz3 votesAs long as Riven is viable no, remember he's her counter.
Ace Access 3 votesriven must be nerfed
Blkninjar876 votesUh chgoath definitely doesnt run up to ur face, silence u, and finishes u off.
Chogaths silence has a casts out ime that makes him pause.... Garens q can be used to break tower faster... Chogath uses mana to silence people...why are they being compared?...;