Judgment now deals 25% reduced damage when hitting multiple units

Phuc Dat Bich·Aug 6, 2015·66 votes·60,439 views

?? So this mean that if you hit minions you will deal less damage? are we turning garen to KHA?

Judgment is an AOE skill that was build to hit many targets!! and to apply B.C stacks (like riot even say it when they create the new B.C) and now they force you to isolate the targets? so now garen is what? an assasin?

I really dont understand riot logic why they just cant simple let Judgment without self slow and without reduced damage...I mean it would not brake Garen this things over here would make garen useless!! GAREN E is AN AOE so how he would be able to ISOLATE a target?

Riot think before you do stuff THINK

196 Comments

VoidgolemAug 6, 201551 votes

it's better than the version where he slows himself by 20%.

I'll take 75% of the damage over 0% due to being out of range.

Phuc Dat BichAug 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

it's better than the version where he slows himself by 20%.

I'll take 75% of the damage over 0% due to being out of range.

Yeah but riot didnt say how that thing would work...So you hit one minion and now all 10 of your ticks (at lvl 16) would deal 25% less damage? or the only one tick that hit the minion would hit 25% less damage?

Its many things in this change that dosent make sense....

And of course the self slow is retarded but this is retarded too because garen was BUILD to hit many targets with his E because its an AOE skill~!

Sightless66Aug 6, 201523 votes

So you hit one minion and now all 10 of your ticks (at lvl 16) would deal 25% less damage? or the only one tick that hit the minion would hit 25% less damage?

The second. Only ticks that hit multiple enemies do less damage.

The increased base damage will give him similar damage in most situations, with a bit lower damage late game unless he hits only one target, which will always afford higher damage. He'll clear waves notably faster too because the reduced minion damage was removed. It's not quite as bad as it looks. It still may need some changes, but it's significantly better than it was.

Jungle Lux GodAug 6, 20152 votes

Actually clearing minion waves is about the same outside of the base damage increase, which will increase Garen's wave clear.

He does 25% extra damage to minions, but since he's hitting more than one minion it gets reduced back by 25%.

B2B The CoachAug 7, 20153 votes

As a garen player, a skill that work with your 550% total AD in 3 sec can be something crazy with simply a BC and LW or hydra during teamsights. I Much prefer this change over the 20% while minion comes!

KING OF MASKSAug 7, 20152 votes

~~This rework is a clusterfuck of terrible ideas. Why can't Garen have the people who worked on Ashe and Gangplank instead?~~

Nevermind, RiotRepertoir is actually pretty great. Cheers!

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 7, 201547 votes

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

Edit:

I read through some responses. This won't answer all questions and address, but it may get a few of them. These aren't direct quotes, but more summaries of the kinds of questions people are asking.

Q: Why the W stack mechanic instead of the 20% Armor/MR? A: The stacking mechanic is quite achievable in your average game (120cs), and it reinforces the value of minion kills on a champion intended to be good for beginner players.

Q: Why flat resists on W instead of percent? A: Flat synergizes better with Health stacking, and Health is present on almost all the items Garen builds. By affording him this synergy, he'll have his baseline defenses covered (lots of Health and some resists), and be able to grab an extra offense or luxury item.

Q: Why does Q silence duration need to be nerfed? A: Having people sit in a Judgment that deals immensely more damage than it used to for basically the whole duration is insane. Shorter silence duration means more play for opponents, but also more room to pump damage into the Judgments.

Q: Why do I need to put points into W to stack it? A: You don't, that was removed because it was tedious.

Q: Why is he slowed while hitting champions with Judgment? A: He's not anymore. That was removed sometime earlier this week.

Q: Why are you just nerfing Garen on basically every way skill? A: Heavy tuning requires give and take. These changes are not intended to be net nerfs to Garen, and I am all but positive they are actually very significant buffs. Most questions like this seem to be due to change aversion or misunderstanding more than anything else.

Q: Why did you take the Tenacity from W? It's so boring now. A: Yes, it was boring before, and it's even more boring now. However, it's important that Tanks and CC supports feel good about their efforts in peeling the tanky, high damage juggernauts, because with the changes being given to them, if they're not peeled, people start dying around them fast.

Q: REVERT EVERYTHING!!!! A: This is so clearly not going to happen, and when people post things like that, anything important to them that they are actually trying to say easily gets glossed over.

Q: Why do you keep acting like Garen is difficult to peel? A; Garen, though historically seen as easily managed, has a few more things going for him that he didn't use to have. First, as of a few patches ago, slows don't stack anymore. Second, Dead Man's Plate gives him a lot of chase/stick later on in games. Third, Black Cleaver stacks even faster now that Judgment ticks faster. This whole package can make him substantially stickier than he used to be.

Q: Why does he deal reduced damage with Judgment when hitting multiple targets? A: Judgment does a real substantial amount of damage, so giving it some optimization cases for Garen and opponents to play around is good for the character. Though I'm confident he won't deal too little damage following these changes, that's easy number tuning.

SKOBODOAug 7, 201512 votes

{quoted}

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

I'm just going to take this opportunity and say: The W stacking. You'll need to farm 100 kills in order to max it out, which is just not going to happen much on top lane Dominion (or ARAM, if you happen to roll Garen). It's not even that interesting for Garen in SR. Why not make it scale with levels, like Lulu's passive?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 20154 votes

We should make it scale faster on other maps. Hopefully I can get that in for 5.16 (build is starting to be finalized), but if not, I'll do so for 5.17.

KingsgraveAug 7, 201513 votes

{quoted}

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

We just feel like you aren't compensating Garen for how much power you are taking away

You strip away a lot of power from his Q without compensating it with cool new effects or anything similar

You strip away a lot of power from his W without fixing any of it's issues or compensating it

You heavily nerfed E until late game and then want to continue nerfing it so that it's always useless

You make a cool bonus for R but make it incredibly useless in laning phase and sorta useless in teamfights

These changes aren't buffs or a rework, it's just a nerf in every way possible. I can't think of a single thing that Garen can do better now or a single thematically interesting change you made other than INCREDIBLY specific damage increase on E/R that will rarely be able to be executed in an actual game unless you are already stomping the enemy.

You nerfed his lane without buffing any aspect of why people like Garen. You should have focused on buffing his split pushing.

PoskeAug 7, 20154 votes

While I dont like your suggestion its true

He took away a lot of power without compensating it

Could we add new mechanic to garen kind of dull kit

Like add some synergy between his q and e ..

Example If garen uses q but doesnt proc it and if he is spining then garen can right click an enemy to do something cool (You can still rightclick around a champon the ground to keep spining oh and also if it would be awkward with right click then it could be garen can then use q again )

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 201511 votes

We just feel like you aren't compensating Garen for how much power you are taking away

Not to be argumentative here, but I think you may just either not understand the full effect of his changes (as well as the item changes coming the same patch), or you need to get a game in on the changes to make a better evaluation. All the data I have on this guy shows that he's significantly more powerful in the PBE version than on Live. I want to make Garen players happy on this one, but they're not going to be happy if he releases at a 55%+ win rate and sits at permaban status for the patch.

KingsgraveAug 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Not to be argumentative here, but I think you may just either not understand the full effect of his changes (as well as the item changes coming the same patch), or you need to get a game in on the changes to make a better evaluation. All the data I have on this guy shows that he's significantly more powerful in the PBE version than on Live. I want to make Garen players happy on this one, but they're not going to be happy if he releases at a 55%+ win rate and sits at permaban status for the patch.

**How would you feel if I took one of your favorite champions, took away all of their safety, removed a lot of their power from one part of the game and forcibly shifted it with a tacked on mechanic to another part that nobody ever picked them for? Would you be happy and content or would you demand better changes then get insulted by the designer who clearly thinks they are better than us? **

He honestly doesn't feel that strong at all on Live. Yeah he feels slightly stronger in the E department outside of Lane on the PBE but everything else feels far weaker. I don't even see why his E being stronger when he builds mostly Tank or is heavily punished for it is relevant to anything.

I don't really even know why you gave him slight late game power, he was never picked for that nor was he picked for teamfighting. Why lower his laning, the reason he is picked, just to slightly increase his late? I really don't get it.

The Garen rework should have been handled by whoever did the Darius rework. They clearly understood the Champion and how to adjust them to fit in the game with their specific niche.

Maybe you should actually play instead of just reading numbers. More powerful in the PBE version than on Live based on data doesn't mean shit. Oh so he has a power level of 777 instead of 775. Big deal.

And yes you are being argumentative. You are basically saying "you would agree with me if you played him" which is a fallacy. "you would agree with me if you were me" is basically your flawed argument. Stats aren't everything. Besides, nobody likes a high winrate banned champ because you guys just gut their strengths and leave them to rot like Olaf.

I don't think you understand what makes a champ 55% winrate. None of Garen's current changes or numbers on the PBE will make him that high of a wrinate or banrate. His laning phase got nuked by you guys and you keep nerfing his late game, the thing you seem to have a hard on for buffing. He brings nothing to a team and won't be picked even with these changes. **This isn't S1/S2 where people were bad and picked immobile Bruisers with no Utility or Damage and won with them. **

Btw, please Stop insulting the Garen playerbase with your condescending tone.

You lowered his early game damage and his mid game damage to slightly increase his late game damage. You also took away a lot of his safety just to do this. I really don't see how you can see this as a buff.

I don't understand how you suddenly became incompetent. Your Ashe changes were insightful. You gave her meaningful strengths and reworked her 2 relatively clunky abilities to do so. With Garen you just stripped away safety and added a forced mechanic on his R.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 201519 votes

Sorry if you were offended. That certainly wasn't my intention. That's my bad. I'll try to respond to the above, though most of the bottom half is just you attacking me personally, so I don't see anything you're really trying to ask there.

How would you feel if I took one of your favorite champions, took away all of their safety, removed a lot of their power from one part of the game and forcibly shifted it with a tacked on mechanic to another part that nobody ever picked them for?

I'd definitely be apprehensive of a change that took something I liked and threw a lot of tweaks at it. That makes sense. I'd also probably try to steer those changes toward some kind of positive resolution.

Would you be happy and content or would you demand better changes then get insulted by the designer who clearly thinks they are better than us?

I'm not asking anyone to be content, though I don't think simply demanding change is all that effective. People that react aggressively to change can get lost pretty easily in a sea of other angry people. All the person you're demanding change from sees in that case is that there's a big group of angry people. It's less effective at detailing what exactly you're angry about or what's actually important to you. When you seem upset about everything, you come across as someone that's just out there to rant rather than drive positive change.

KingsgraveAug 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Sorry if you were offended. That certainly wasn't my intention. That's my bad. I'll try to respond to the above, though most of the bottom half is just you attacking me personally, so I don't see anything you're really trying to ask there.

I'd definitely be apprehensive of a change that took something I liked and threw a lot of tweaks at it. That makes sense. I'd also probably try to steer those changes toward some kind of positive resolution.

I'm not asking anyone to be content, though I don't think simply demanding change is all that effective. People that react aggressively to change can get lost pretty easily in a sea of other angry people. All the person you're demanding change from sees in that case is that there's a big group of angry people. It's less effective at detailing what exactly you're angry about or what's actually important to you. When you seem upset about everything, you come across as someone that's just out there to rant rather than drive positive change.

Sorry, I'm just upset that Darius got a lot of positive changes specific to his playstyle and Skarner got a specific Niche and there is still no real reason to pick Garen over anyone else other than you like Garen. I didn't mean to come off as a hater, I just really want to see Garen get the same level of changes the other 3 got.

His R mechanic is a nice idea but the execution seems really illogical to me. He gets no benefit to why he was ever picked, Laning, and it doesn't seem to give him any real benefit in teamfights because he can't control it's power.

He still doesn't seem to do anything better than anyone else and from what I played most of his strengths on Live, early to mid game laning against hyper specific targets, is gone.

He doesn't focus on objectives, splitting, dueling, diving, teamfighting, damage, peel, utility etc., He has no pure focus. Even someone as simplistic as Wukong has a focus, another champ I love because I love the Spin to Win moves lmao.

**So what reason do I pick Garen, other than I like him, over Darius/Wukong/Hecarim (other similar juggernaut top laners)? **

What does this rework do that makes him pickworthy? What does this rework solve that he had a problem with?

I don't feel like any of these questions have been answered unlike with Morde/Darius/Skarner. Not everyone likes Morde/Skarner changes but at least they have a new focus and a reason to be picked.

Yes Garen might be slightly better at spinning now, I really don't see how this would shoot up his winrate or really give him a reason to be picked over anyone else. He was never picked for his late game or really ever picked outside of mains that liked him.

If I were to go with something that I think Garen should be the master at, is that you literally can't get him out of fights. You can't get rid of him and he is a constant pressure on everyone. Maybe not a huge threat but he is always there. I feel like his Passive and W need to be replaced in order for this to be realized tho.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 20156 votes

So what reason do I pick Garen, other than I like him, over Darius/Wukong/Hecarim (other similar juggernaut top laners)?

There are a couple potential reasons that I could see to pick Garen (outside just liking him). First, he'll still be a lane bully for several matchups I imagine, and picking to win your lane can often be a good idea. Second, relative to other tanky top laners, Garen will have possibly the best combined package of sustained speed, durability, and damage. Basically, he's a good pick when you need a tanky damage dealing presence and you can anticipate fights that will move a lot. Strategically, he may be the perfect pick when you have a team that can support him (especially with speed buffs, like Lulu or Sivir) and the opposing team has only one or two damage threats (bonus points if at least one of them is a melee threat). This is the ideal pick scenario for him because the opposing team needs their limited damage dealers to get fed in order to win the game, and if they get fed, they become the Villain. Having that extra effectiveness against that Villain when the opposing team is heavily reliant on them can actually be a big deal.

Another fun interpretation of where I think Garen is a good pick, though it isn't strategic within the game is when you know the opposing team relies on a certain player to get fed in order to win. This could potentially translate to competitive play, though I think it's more applicable and fun to pre-mades with friends. When you've got that one Diamond guy in your premade that you know is going to stomp a bunch of Silvers, pick Garen against him and show him who's boss in the late game.

What does this rework solve that he had a problem with?

Before making any changes to him, Garen was in the unfortunate situation of:

Having to work super hard to get to people in fights (this used to be the standard in LoL)
Not being all that impactful if he actually managed to get to people

This update doesn't change the former. In fact, he statistically becomes slightly worse at getting to people. However, it is intended that he'll have a huge impact if he actually manages to get to people now. Whether or not the exact numbers we have on PBE right now will perfectly accomplish that goal, that is indeed the goal, and I'll work to get him there if he falls short of it on release. At the end of the day, Garen is never going to be able to compete with champions like Irelia, Hecarim, or Riven (this isn't to say that any of these three characters are necessarily balanced either) when it comes to getting to specific targets, so he should be meaningfully more impactful than them in some way if he pulls it off. In his case, he's just going to deal a ton of damage to things he sticks to.

KingsgraveAug 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There are a couple potential reasons that I could see to pick Garen (outside just liking him). First, he'll still be a lane bully for several matchups I imagine, and picking to win your lane can often be a good idea. Second, relative to other tanky top laners, Garen will have possibly the best combined package of sustained speed, durability, and damage. Basically, he's a good pick when you need a tanky damage dealing presence and you can anticipate fights that will move a lot. Strategically, he may be the perfect pick when you have a team that can support him (especially with speed buffs, like Lulu or Sivir) and the opposing team has only one or two damage threats (bonus points if at least one of them is a melee threat). This is the ideal pick scenario for him because the opposing team needs their limited damage dealers to get fed in order to win the game, and if they get fed, they become the Villain. Having that extra effectiveness against that Villain when the opposing team is heavily reliant on them can actually be a big deal.

Another fun interpretation of where I think Garen is a good pick, though it isn't strategic within the game is when you know the opposing team relies on a certain player to get fed in order to win. This could potentially translate to competitive play, though I think it's more applicable and fun to pre-mades with friends. When you've got that one Diamond guy in your premade that you know is going to stomp a bunch of Silvers, pick Garen against him and show him who's boss in the late game.

Before making any changes to him, Garen was in the unfortunate situation of:

Having to work super hard to get to people in fights (this used to be the standard in LoL)

Not being all that impactful if he actually managed to get to people

This update doesn't change the former. In fact, he statistically becomes slightly worse at getting to people. However, it is intended that he'll have a huge impact if he actually manages to get to people now. Whether or not the exact numbers we have on PBE right now will perfectly accomplish that goal, that is indeed the goal, and I'll work to get him there if he falls short of it on release. At the end of the day, Garen is never going to be able to compete with champions like Irelia, Hecarim, or Riven (this isn't to say that any of these three characters are necessarily balanced either) when it comes to getting to specific targets, so he should be meaningfully more impactful than them in some way if he pulls it off. In his case, he's just going to deal a ton of damage to things he sticks to.

Darius/Volibear seems to be a far better pick for both answers you gave, especially with the rework on Darius.

If you want the Damage aspect of Garen you go for Darius and he excels far better at it than Garen could ever dream. The dueling, peeling and being a Juggernaut thing is better handled by Volibear than Garen.

I just don't see why I would ever pick Garen, unless I like him, over Volibear/Darius top and I still don't see how these minimal changes on the PBE are supposed to change that.

Besides, I don't see how he has an easier time getting to people in fights or has any increased impact once he does in the PBE compared to Live. You didn't give him increased mobility or that much more damage until mid to late. You actually reduced his Q MS duration late.

So an even better question would be:

**3 reasons why I should pick Garen over Volibear or Darius top outside of laning phase? **

sp441Aug 8, 20155 votes

Demacia
Demacia
DEMACIAAAAA

WarWorkAug 8, 20152 votes

Dude, i just wanna say thanks for all your work. I know it must be hard for you, players ask for updates the b***h when they get them. I hope you do not feel de spirited by the hate and continue your work motivated.

P.s. Is there any hope for use Warwick lovers? If no why not :(

TerraRisingAug 8, 20152 votes

I'm not a Ranked player, so maybe any insight I have might be skewed, but I do have a few points to make about these assertions about the viability of Garen in a competitive environment post-Juggernaut changes.

{quoted}

There are a couple potential reasons that I could see to pick Garen (outside just liking him). First, he'll still be a lane bully for several matchups I imagine, and picking to win your lane can often be a good idea.

So, he'd be a very specific counter pick to a handful of top lane matchups? What if the team wants to counter-pick a different lane or I'm not in a draft mode and can't tell what my opponent is playing until it's too late? In that case, I'm playing Garen because I like playing Garen as opposed to playing a champion that might help my team win the game.

Second, relative to other tanky top laners, Garen will have possibly the best combined package of sustained speed, durability, and damage. Basically, he's a good pick when you need a tanky damage dealing presence and you can anticipate fights that will move a lot. Strategically, he may be the perfect pick when you have a team that can support him (especially with speed buffs, like Lulu or Sivir) and the opposing team has only one or two damage threats (bonus points if at least one of them is a melee threat). This is the ideal pick scenario for him because the opposing team needs their limited damage dealers to get fed in order to win the game, and if they get fed, they become the Villain. Having that extra effectiveness against that Villain when the opposing team is heavily reliant on them can actually be a big deal.

So, why wouldn't I just pick someone like Maokai, Hecarim, Irelia or Riven in this instance, all of whom benefit my team much more than Garen could after a Sivir/Lulu/Righteous Glory boost? I mean, the purpose of this rework is, supposedly, to improve Garen's viability in competitive in addition to providing "strategic diversity" (whatever that means), but I'm not seeing it. If Garen still can't get to a specific "villain" target in a team fight (which doesn't appear to be a goal of this rework), what good is the extra 1% damage per AA in his R passive going to actually mean?

Puri Puri TaricAug 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sorry if you were offended. That certainly wasn't my intention. That's my bad. I'll try to respond to the above, though most of the bottom half is just you attacking me personally, so I don't see anything you're really trying to ask there.

I'd definitely be apprehensive of a change that took something I liked and threw a lot of tweaks at it. That makes sense. I'd also probably try to steer those changes toward some kind of positive resolution.

I'm not asking anyone to be content, though I don't think simply demanding change is all that effective. People that react aggressively to change can get lost pretty easily in a sea of other angry people. All the person you're demanding change from sees in that case is that there's a big group of angry people. It's less effective at detailing what exactly you're angry about or what's actually important to you. When you seem upset about everything, you come across as someone that's just out there to rant rather than drive positive change.

Taric where ? gg game designers can poop out fiora rework but no taric rework gg.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 201532 votes

Taric's design work was actually finished early this year, but he's getting the full deal as far as updates go: model, animations, effects, sounds, lore, icons, gameplay.

He'll be a Sion-level rework, and he should probably come late this year or early next year.

I did his game design work, so if you hate it when it hits PBE, feel free to let me know then.

ArchenzAug 8, 201510 votes

Your one of my favorite game designers. You answer all our concerns on both the Skarner and Garen reworks, and even though they were bad when they came out. You've been listening and tweaking :)

Thanks.

EwigDAug 9, 20153 votes

Not trying to go too far off topic, but on the note of Tatic (and if at all possible Poppy), without giving any specifics, can you tell us what they're gonna be post relaunch? As in, will they be tanks, with more cc? Will they go the juggernaut route instead? Mostly just really curious if they'll be more Leona/Alistar/Nautilus like or more Gnar/Sion/Darius like.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20155 votes

Taric will stay a support tank guy.

ZombiepasteAug 10, 20154 votes

gem knight tank support stunning flamboyant? (not gay just excessively amusing flamboyant)

BlackquillAug 9, 20153 votes

Do you expect players to hate your Taric kit design? Everything would be better than what Taric is right now.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20158 votes

I expect there will be people that hate it, because it's some significant change. However, that's going to be the case with any level of change. A lot of Sion players were not happy when he was no longer a burst mage, if I remember correctly.

ThePurpleKnightAug 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Taric's design work was actually finished early this year, but he's getting the full deal as far as updates go: model, animations, effects, sounds, lore, icons, gameplay.

He'll be a Sion-level rework, and he should probably come late this year or early next year.

I did his game design work, so if you hate it when it hits PBE, feel free to let me know then.

Let me guess, instead of sticking with what makes Taric, Taric, you went with an entirely different concept better suited to a new champion rather than the existing armor stacking healing tank. New Taric will be a mid lane mage that does lots of earth quake skill shot knock ups and is nothing like the old Taric that already has many fans just looking for some animation and number buffs.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201542 votes

Still heals (more I think?) Still has an Armor buff Still has Armor scaling

But I should probably make him an earthquake burst mage, that idea sounds cooler.

Very Cash MoneyAug 10, 20156 votes

I just have to ask about his stun. Because in a game with more and more mobility (kalista....) it seems that some more reliable stuns are really necessary. Taric is one of the few who got that, but since you didn't mention it I assume it is getting murdered :?

So will he have reliable CC or will he suffer the same fate as many others getting a skillshot and/or knockup treatment.

Just concerned for my outeragous man, he has had a special place in my heart since the old 100% ap ratio days on all his spells :P

J0HN C3N4Aug 11, 20158 votes

Ah, stun wasn't mentioned. GG.

TotalJerkAug 8, 20155 votes

I'd advise you to never directly say anything approximating "You don't get it" to the people in this community again, regardless of how clearly right you are to say that. Gamers typically don't wanna hear that shit when discussing things with devs.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 201515 votes

I don't think they want to be fed BS either. And I don't think they want to be ignored. I'd rather say I don't fully understand something than just ignore them or make something up.

Krys StarAug 8, 20157 votes

Said gamers will have to get over it. Honesty > BS

SquishyArchonAug 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

For starters how does it make sense for him to be slowed during Judgement while damaging an enemy champion with it? So I'm getting punished for finally getting close enough to someone to hit them?

R110Aug 7, 20157 votes

That is removed in the latest PBE patch :)

MasterOfTheOrderAug 7, 20159 votes

{quoted}

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

Yes.

With that half sarcastic and obligatory response out of the way, only 2 changes made me happy.

Garen has always been a steady and easy to play top lane tank. He's also VERY EASY to kite and deal with, when you're playing against him. When you're playing AS him, you just play wait the enemy to push past the halfway mark in the lane, then yolo charge their face while screaming "DEMACIA".

Everyone knows this. Garen is Garen. He's decent early game, dangerous if fed mid game, and terrible when everyone is maxed out. To make him viable and "unique", the change to his ult is perfect. Honestly, it's perfect. The speed buff to his Judgement was also a nice addition, and rounded of the ult change for the sake of an easy to use and simple to understand combo, which Garen never had before.

Those are what should stay. EVERY OTHER CHANGE NEEDS TO GO. ALL OF THEM. If he becomes a bit too overbearing, remove the additional attack speed from his Judgement. The ult addition should be enough, if that turns out to be the case.

I hope I explained this clearly. Garen was my main top laner when I felt like playing a relaxed game for fun, and I've never hated laning against him.

SolideusAug 7, 20157 votes

EVERY OTHER CHANGE NEEDS TO GO.

It's not actionable feedback if you don't explain why you think that's needed. Without a why you're basically saying "I want him to be stronger but without any tradeoffs". Read up on what the changes are trying to accomplish and give feedback based on that.

JaghataiAug 7, 201525 votes

I wish CertainlyT would be this mature about Mord. His posts on PBE seem like he's just sticking his fingers in his ears and humming really really loudly. Heck in one of his posts he just said "find a good teammate, Good luck!"

That being said - I despise the change to W. Garen doesn't farm well and having to farm up 150 CS for what feels like a very minor MR/Armor increase (Heck Olaf gets the same buff FOR FREE!) . I loved the feeling of being invincible as Garen ... these changes look like they won't give me that feeling anymore.

Also the reduced damage on the AEO Spin to Win doesn't make sense to me. I was little miffed at the loss of the crit damage on E, but reducing the damage on the AEO ... confusing and feels like a really bad feedback loop.

XonraAug 7, 201526 votes

{quoted}

I am the guy working on Garen. I'm also the guy that worked on Ashe. What about the changes to Garen is making you unhappy?

Ya know, the fact you asked this question made me pretty happy. I wish we would see this...just threads started out like this sometimes. "I am the guy working on X. What is making you unhappy?" Oh man these threads would turn into a lovefest over night lol

KING OF MASKSAug 7, 20155 votes

Aha! I heard that it was you who was working on Garen, but I wasn't aware that you also reworked Ashe. That's confusing to me since Ashe's rework was so cohesive and right now Garen's seems very slapdash (I'm holding out hope that the final product is more elegant).

I made a thread here (granted, I made that thread before reading about some of the more recent changes), but the short of it is that it feels like there's a major disconnect between what I love about Garen (and more objectively, how he's played) and your goals for the rework; the most glaring and far-reaching of which is the evening out of Garen's power curve. Garen's biggest weaknesses are his inherent vulnerability to CC and his lack of CC, making him extremely weak in organized teamfights; thankfully, right now this balanced out by his extremely strong early game. But if you were to balance him out to make him scale more normally (weaker early, stronger later), that would completely neuter him due to the nature of his kit; he would be mediocre at all stages of the game. The fact is that I don't want a Garen who is "strong" (stat-wise) in the late game; he should be strong early, where his kit is at its most effective.

Anyway, that's my broad-strokes take on the rework. I have many smaller, more specific issues with it... such as the W stacking mechanic being just weird and thematically inconsistent... where's the connection between killing things, growing more resistant to damage, and Courage? Does Garen get a confidence boost every time he smashes a minion's face in? That doesn't seem very Garen-y to me. Also, more importantly, the removal of his innate tenacity does not sit well with me at all given that it is almost certainly his most important stat; he needs all the CC resistance he can get in order to do his job properly. I can sort of see how the changes to Q and his increased auto range can compensate for it but I'm really uncertain about how it'll play. One of the best feelings I've experienced while playing Garen is when you wade through the enemy team to get at their carries, soaking CC and damage in equal measure; it's not about reaching them with speed or range or complex mechanics (as with your everyday garden-variety assassin), but by sheer might.

If I were to make a few suggestions, it would be to perhaps experiment with enhancing Garen's slow cleanse to also work with fears (extremely thematic) or roots or other types of CC (a more than adequate compensation for the tenacity removal); maybe even move the cleanse from Q to W (breaking CC effects is certainly more courageous than killing minions). Also, one concern I have with the Villainy system is how little control Garen has over it; I can see myself in a skirmish attempting to execute the Villain, only for another enemy to make a kill at the last second and thus allow the previous Villain to escape justice. Instead of having it interact with regular kills, make it so that it only interacts with multikills and/or killing sprees (both of which are vile and more villainous than your average kill or slaying). That would add a lot more reliability.

Anyway, sorry for the essay. I also apologize for being rather caustic in my previous statements; my opinion of the rework's progress has been vastly tempered now that I've witnessed your outreach firsthand.

Typhoon101Aug 7, 20158 votes

Honestly your taking away to much from hes w and other parts of hes kit to IMO. Sure, the new changes are cool but hes still a kiteable tank with no hard cc. He has to do work in order to get on a fed adc with mobility or and pesky mid laner assassin with 1000 dashes already without the nerf. With the removal of hes W's CC reduction AND bonus armour and magic resistance, hes going to take so much damage just trying to get to someone now and probably won't even make it cause hes CC'd down for 5 seconds.

----------------------On a side note i have to add a cool change----------------------

A really cool change would be giving him some form of real mobility to get on to someone. The w changes wouldn't look so harsh with this in hes kit.

Makes hes q a leap strike...

Examples http://img.sf.my.com/Berserker_Leap_Naga.jpg http://previews.123rf.com/images/danomyte/danomyte1105/danomyte110500003/9462347-Ninja-girl-using-the-dreaded-jump-attack-Stock-Vector-ninja-samurai-warrior.jpg

Its very warrior like. Its what hes q always should of been.

THE VlLLAlNAug 7, 20153 votes

This isn't necessarily what's making me unhappy but I have to ask, why did you nerf the base damage on Judgement, and increase the scaling? That seems counter-intuitive on a champion that should be building tank items. Especially when this rework is trying to enforce the 'Juggernaut screeching Demacia like a harpy' aspect. I could be completely off base here, so apologies in advance.

JusticePauldronsAug 8, 20154 votes

I am absolutely content with all the new changes now that you have removed that dreadful slow from judgement. With the passive put back it's old glory and the movement speed debuff removed from the kit I can see how nerfing his only crowd control would be appropriate. I want you to know that I appreciate how much you guys seemed to listen to the feedback we gave and that you take the time to respond to our grievances like this. In all honesty with the increase to judgements damage due to the increased amount of ticks the 25% aoe damage nerf is fine by comparison. You have made it so Garen can now do his job with his main skill without peeling himself off the enemy team for them. Thank you for that. I am sure that with the cooldown changes, the passive element of his ultimate, and the increased amount of ticks we will find that Garen now has a much more well defined role. Thank you for bringing back the criticals, thank you for removing the slow that ruined the entire kit and thank you for listening to us on the matter and making timely changes and responses that allow us players to feel like we are a part of the process. As a Garen main I was worried this was going to ruin my favorite champion in the game, and that would have just ruined me. I literally looked up at my Garen poster after reading the old changelist and couldn't help but sigh before, but now it seems that we are going in the right direction with these changes.

Garen JUSTICE!

OblongOtterAug 8, 20154 votes

If I may, does Black Cleaver stacking faster on Judgement have anything to do with Garen being harder to peel? Unless his current E ticks every 2.5 seconds, I don't see how faster armor reduction makes him stickier. Not trying to be rude, just pointing out what I assume to be an oversight.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 8, 20153 votes

At max stacks of Black Cleaver, you get some Movement Speed.

SolideusAug 8, 20155 votes

but isnt the rage effect separate from the armor shred, and it doesnt stack does it? you just get 20 ms from dealing physical dmg, right?