But when it come to tanks and this mastery
Hardiness +2/+3.5/+5
We dont even bother buffing tank Armor because what if ADCs have more AD and Doran blade is stronger now? tanks would have less armor/less hp as they start the game (Because Veteran Scars become from flat to 6% max hp) Because you know Tanks have such an amazing early game that it needed more nerfs...and gutting..
Sasogwa5 votesMeanwhile Savagery grants +5 damage to minions for last hit purposes and fervour grants up to +10 physical damage per auto at lvl 1 (!) Sure they needed this base AD buff. Rito pls...
XeroKimo2 votesThe up to +10 dmg thing only works on Champions making it good for lane bully type champs
Need Gold 4 Tent2 votesWell, to be fair, tanks can use these equally well while still getting their defense through items. In my opinion, the 5 damage for last hits is even more helpful for tanks who don't really get damage to last hit compared to ADC who (even without it) will be buying AD to help them last hit or trade anyway.
It's really just the new items that make me displeased regarding this update, I quite like the look of the new masteries at the moment and how they would interact with the runes now. Since mana regen has become rarer, does that mean mana regen/level yellows are now on par with armor (for some champs)?
Anidan1 votesIf you manage to hit a champion on the Live servers (not the potatoes on PBE) with all 10 stacks at level 1 I'll congratulate you. You have to constantly attack, 10 times with a brief window of time to keep the stacks, and for 10 auto attack damage. That means you're either in a really long fight for some reason, or you're pushing your lane by continually AA'ing your minions.
Some of you really will try to make this all a giant stupid circlejerk and you'll make anything try to fit into it.
Sasogwa1 votesIf you manage to hit a champion on the Live servers (not the potatoes on PBE) with all 10 stacks at level 1 I'll congratulate you. You have to constantly attack, 10 times with a brief window of time to keep the stacks, and for 10 auto attack damage. That means you're either in a really long fight for some reason, or you're pushing your lane by continually AA'ing your minions.
Some of you really will try to make this all a giant stupid circlejerk and you'll make anything try to fit into it.
'brief window'
5 seconds. You have to be smart about it and just use it to lasthit, to auto the enemy laner or to not lose your current amount of stacks. 5 seconds is a long time, and 10 physical damage is huge. In comparison, Jax's passive lasts 2.5 seconds
RisenDarkKnight3 votesThe last whisper change effectively buff tanks armor though (because it doesn't ignore their base armor anymore). But it is pretty weird that adcs are the only ones getting compensated for the mastery changes.
Phuc Dat Bich9 votesThe last whisper change effectively buff tanks armor though (because it doesn't ignore their base armor anymore). But it is pretty weird that adcs are the only ones getting compensated for the mastery changes.
the 5 armor mastery is more focused on early game so the L.W change dosent effect that at all
the 5 extra armor and the 3 extra armor from legendary guardian (Which got nerfed at 2 plus you cant have it unless you say no to 15% tenacity) was a good counter to all the BS riven have in top lane
Now this is over...and riot didnt even bother buffing doran shield...
Penns1 votesBecause Dorans shield will be a broken item if you buff it in any way.
EndlessSorcerer1 votes
Mundo eagerly awaits.
KONO RUBICK DA4 votesBecause Dorans shield will be a broken item if you buff it in any way.
if you buff the stats it will be 100% picked
if you buff the passive against ranged, it won't
MCBiggah991 votesThe last whisper change effectively buff tanks armor though (because it doesn't ignore their base armor anymore). But it is pretty weird that adcs are the only ones getting compensated for the mastery changes.
This entire patch is an ADC dicksuckery, really, together with all crit champions like Yasuo and Tryndamere. It isn't that surprising when you look at it in that way, I mean look at all the mages who got shafted.
Meep Man3 votes
would love another base armor buff please
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-10T16:58:46.383+0000)
Just give Rammus 40 base armor, his clear speeds are way slower without Bladed Armor.
flibitydoo3 votesActually ADs are losing (+4 AD) from the Martial Mastery passive.
Dorans blade is +1 damage stronger. And +10 hp stronger.
Tanks can start the game with a keystone mastery that gives them a flat 4% damage reduciton, escalating to 8% in a teamfight/skirmish. Damage reduction is huge, Alistar and Braum are big supports (and maokai is a big toplaner) because their %damage reduction makes them very tanky. There is also a ton of health regen for tanks in the Resolve tree which really helps out laning.
And tanks are not necessarily weak right now. Juggernauts, Tahm Kench, Alistar, Shen, Nautilus and hell even Zac saw competitive play at worlds.
And of course, 
is getting nerfed, which means top lane becomes a more drawn out sustain-lane. Which really helps meatwalls and tanks.
Spoofghoul1 votesnew perseverance is weaker at all stages of the game for tanks
Fisk1 votesNot even in any way at all what so ever at all in any way. Do I make my point here: not at all. Way stronger at EVERY point in the game period.
ayNigerianPrince1 votesGrievous wounds will pretty much ruin Shen's ability to fight at all.
Alëk2 votesGrievous wounds will pretty much ruin Shen's ability to fight at all.
If your talking about 1v1 then it'll definitely hurt a bit, but the regen from his Q was never a big part of his teamfighting ability so I'd have to disagree with that.
ayNigerianPrince1 votesYes I was speaking of his 1v1. My bad in saying "at all".
Penns2 votesBut at the same time Tahm needs nerfs? kek
KONO RUBICK DA19 votesBut at the same time Tahm needs nerfs? kek
tahm kench doesn't speak for every tanks
Penns2 votesBut he is a tank and if people say "tanks will be useless season 6", that applies to Tahm as well lol.
KONO RUBICK DA6 votesBut he is a tank and if people say "tanks will be useless season 6", that applies to Tahm as well lol.
no, like saying adc are perma picked bot "but mordekaiser" one champion doesn't speak for everyone
Penns1 votesWell Mordekaiser is an adc now, so... And even if not, Tahm is the definition of "tank", so if "every single tank will be weak in season 6", then Tahm will be weak as well.
KONO RUBICK DA3 votesWell Mordekaiser is an adc now, so... And even if not, Tahm is the definition of "tank", so if "every single tank will be weak in season 6", then Tahm will be weak as well.
mordekaiser is a juggernaut, you think that adc is a role lol, it's a class. ADC are ranged sustained damage. mordekaiser isn't ranged doesn't have sustained damage
Penns1 votesStill, why does Tahm have to be nerfed if "all tanks will be useless in season 6 anyway"? Doesnt make any sense..
Anidan8 votesBecause you're operating off of a logical fallacy based on their hyperbole. Not every tank will actually be useless come season 6 (except according to Doomsayers and upvote farmers, but Doomsayers have been around for millennia and look at their accuracy thus far). So, now that we dispelled the hyperbole, we come to the specifics of Tahm Kench. Now we can isolate his case and tackle it by itself now that we aren't lumping him in with everyone else due to the Boards circlejerk. Now we can properly discuss why he needs nerfed - which he does.
Penns1 votesThis isnt a hyperbole. Everyone ever literally said that all tanks will be weak due to item, meta and direct champion changes. Even if they are "upvote farmers", people still have to upvote, which means they agree. And Tahm doesnt need to get nerfed at all, especially not when there are such big changes coming.
planters3 votesthe whole basis of upvote farmers is that they say something that is generally agreed upon and matches up to 90% of people's expectations. They exclude specifics like tahm ken when they do this. the reason why tahm is considered needing a nerf is because his specific skill, denying damage to his allies, is deemed WAY to powerful and impactful on the game by the community right now if for no other reason than the uptime. If his devour ability was an ult and used only once every two minutes no one would complain. That it is a basic skill that basically denies not only the entire class of assassins, but even a large number of champions outside it like burst mages syndra, lux, annie, as well as dive heavy fighters like shyvana, vi and J4 from doing their job is what makes people say he is op. To make matters worse he is so inherently tanky that when he does deny you, you can't do anything to stop him so you just kind waste your skills and possibly lose the teamfight.
You're getting so wrapped up in the general idea of tanks being nerfed you arent looking at the specifics of a champion when they are brought up. What Riot has been doing is increasingly making every single champion in league completely unique with their own distinct strengths and weaknesses. High level play of a single champion is less and less transferring over to the entire class or even sub-class. This is most apparent in game changing skills that determine the strength of the champion and an individual's value in playing that champion.
Penns1 votesHe denies damage to an ally, but he also makes that ally unable to do any damage, which isnt too strong at all. If it has such a high cooldown it would be really weak. I wouldnt complain if Rivens E was her ult on 1-2 minutes cooldown either, but that doesnt mean it would be fine like that. Tahm doesnt completely stop these champs from doing their job, he simply creates counterplay against them that they can play around as well. Its not OP that Tahm can counter pick comps that rely on hitting something like a Morg or Lux Q, its a good thing. If you want to play a pick comp, ban Tahm. If you play a poke team that kites Tahm or a heavy engage team that just rolls over him, you dont need to care. Gameplay like that is what League needs. See, you say "you just kind waste your skills and possibly lose the teamfight" because he is a tank. If you would be talking about any other tank, people would just reply "then dont waste your spells for the tank lel", or if you were talking about Yasuos windwall, people would say "then dont blow all your cooldowns into it kek", but since Tahm magically has a global taunt and is impossible to kite as well, thats not a thing?
And I dont think tanks will be bad in season 6, especially Rammus for example, who is way better than Tahm.
planters1 votesIm not disputing the strength of tanks. surprisingly they may actually see some minor improvement, but I feel that fighters are going to be receiving the benefit from all the changes to armor more so than tanks. I am saying that tahm's strategical value is to great. with riot's recent change to make every champion unique they have, probably inadvertently, created two huge divides in how a champion can be OP.
the most well known in individual asset. this is the champion just having too much raw power or something that prevents the enemy team from dealing with them properly. Best example would be zed and lee sin who have had the issue of too much safety with all their damage.
the newer OP state is strategical asset. this is something that has appeared in LCS more often than not. strategically OP champions, in the case of tahm kench, have such a huge value that not taking them is almost a mistake. In the case of tahm kench you talked about his weaknesses. that's not the problem. the problem is that his invalidating burst so completely and forcibly making damage aim at him is the most tank thing that you can do in this game. He forces his oppenents to get through him which generally is not possible because he is a tank. the answer, just ban him, does not take away from the fact that if he does enter the picture he is worse to deal with than other cahmpions.
In the case of yasuo and his windwall that counters siege, his siege countering is not so great that it is game breaking because sieges can go on for many minutes while the skill is down. so even if it is OP it has decent counterplay. the problem with tahm is that because he so heavily denies going in on any champion ANY all in is alway risky as when you do all in you generally aim for the squishiest member. his stopping that from even being possible makes it OP. if he had a simple delay on when he could take in his ally of like .5 seconds or something more and the skill needed to be PREDICTIVE, then tahm would be balanced. as is it is reflexive so it is deemed OP.
Penns1 votesWell I already knew Tahm was gonna be quite OP in lcs when he came out. but we are not in lcs. Im talking about soloq and in soloq he isnt too strong at all because you cant abuse his strategical strengths with 4 strangers.
I havent really played League a lot in the past month, but back when I did play and Tahm was played quite a few times as well, he never was a problem. Like he would just get kited every single time. All the time. There wasnt even a point in trying to fight as Tahm, you just got slowed or stunned once or twice and melted instantly. The only thing he could do was stop an ally from getting caught but you can do that with 
, 
or... good positioning as well. Other than that he just lost to poke because he is a tank that cant initiate and he lost in direct teamfights because he is nearly useless in those.
Thats how I remember Tahm, idk what magically made him op lol.
ayNigerianPrince2 votesK, take three cups of water. Got them? Now make one of them filled a little higher than the others. Label this as Tahm. Now take an equal amount out of each cup. I guess now the Tahm cup will now be the same level as the rest.
Penns1 votesI understand that, but when people are saying "all tanks will be utterly useless in this meta", then Im assuming that all three cups of water are "filled way lower" than all the other cups. Thats my point, even if Tahm is above the other "tank cups", he would still be below all others.
Phuc Dat Bich19 votesBut he is a tank and if people say "tanks will be useless season 6", that applies to Tahm as well lol.
i guess Vayne is the same as twitch huh? so according to your logic twitch should get nerfed to the ground because vayne is strong
That what you say by saying "Tahm is a tank so tanks need to be nerfed"
WAT?[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Captain Aishi1 voteswell, at least riot nerfed twitch in the coming update!
vayne's -3 AD nerf from a few patches ago hit her too hard so now let's give her +6! :P
Grunt6662 votes[{quoted}](name=Vârg Vikernes,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-10T13:23:46.764+0000)
But when it come to tanks and this mastery
Hardiness +2/+3.5/+5
We dont even bother buffing tank Armor because what if ADCs have more AD and Doran blade is stronger now? tanks would have less armor/less hp as they start the game (Because Veteran Scars become from flat to 6% max hp) Because you know Tanks have such an amazing early game that it needed more nerfs...and gutting..
they atually nerfed MF's lol.
Oshlet2 votesI think that mastery (and those like it) were removed not to fuck over tanks, but because everyone was getting it. The new defensive masteries are more focused on getting tankier from building tanky.
Phuc Dat Bich2 votesI think that mastery (and those like it) were removed not to fuck over tanks, but because everyone was getting it. The new defensive masteries are more focused on getting tankier from building tanky.
Not really this mastery needed 12 points on defense mastery in order to have it so if you were going for the standard 21/9 you couldnt have that mastery
That mastery was for people who were invest in defense and going 9/21
Angry Monster1 voteswhich is a failing build. Riot has already said that damage must be greater than defense. So building tank is a losing idea. No matter what you will become worthless unless you have a damage steroid based of a defensive stat
Tahm.
Anu3isII1 votesIf that is what they stated , I want at least 5% CDR on every mage/support. And maybe the 3% MS while IN combat...
Also the Cunning (Utility/Weird Offence) should be looked again imo (the first 2 rows of choices don't look good at all... biscuits are meh , and the buff duration increase doesn't really make sense staying there...)
The old utility page was great , and it wasn't giving direct advantages as "You have X% more when Y happens" as the other pages had . It helped you manage your cooldowns/position/mana much easier... Playing around summoner spells and mobility can be game-changing , and it kinda makes the difference between "good" and "calculated" players.
Zair Umbras2 votesI can't lie. The Cunning tree is fricken horrible unless you're a healing based support. The last 3 keystones are pretty crap. 30s CD on Thunderlord's Decree for minimal burst and Stormraider's is too snowbally.
Zair Umbras1 votesEarly AD on ADCs were increased at the cost of AD later on in the game. I guess if tanks want to lose 20 or so base armor so they can gain 5 armor at level 1, we can give that to them... You know, I don't think that base armor which can't be reduced by the new LW is all too useful. It's only about 80-100, which is 40%-50% reduction that can only be reduced by a Cleaver, flat ArP, and abilities that reduce armor, so it wouldn't hurt to nuke their armor from 80-100 to about 50-60, right? Get them down to a lowly 30ish percent base, amirite?
For those who paid little attention to the patch notes, LW does 30% of BONUS armor and the upgraded versions give 40% compared to 35% of TOTAL armor, so the Rammus and Braums with 100 armor at max level have a free 50% reduction that ADC's can't ignore as long as they get one armor item like a Randuin's, which reduces crit damage by 10%, an overall DPS loss of 5% with crits being a flat 50% with the basic IE+AS/Crit item. More of a loss on the ones with more crit chance.
But, you know. It's cool. We can give tanks 5 more armor at level 1 and reduce their armor at level 18 by 10-20 like ADs had their base AD reduced to.
Phuc Dat Bich1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-11-11T23:02:48.056+0000)
Early AD on ADCs were increased at the cost of AD later on in the game. I guess if tanks want to lose 20 or so base armor so they can gain 5 armor at level 1, we can give that to them... You know, I don't think that base armor which can't be reduced by the new LW is all too useful. It's only about 80-100, which is 40%-50% reduction that can only be reduced by a Cleaver, flat ArP, and abilities that reduce armor, so it wouldn't hurt to nuke their armor from 80-100 to about 50-60, right? Get them down to a lowly 30ish percent base, amirite?
For those who paid little attention to the patch notes, LW does 30% of BONUS armor and the upgraded versions give 40% compared to 35% of TOTAL armor, so the Rammus and Braums with 100 armor at max level have a free 50% reduction that ADC's can't ignore as long as they get one armor item like a Randuin's, which reduces crit damage by 10%, an overall DPS loss of 5% with crits being a flat 50% with the basic IE+AS/Crit item. More of a loss on the ones with more crit chance.
But, you know. It's cool. We can give tanks 5 more armor at level 1 and reduce their armor at level 18 by 10-20 like ADs had their base AD reduced to.
You say that you read the patch note
So you ignore the fact that now ADCs can have 120% more critical strike change ? Or you ignore the fact that now ADCs can have 200 AD more from items plus the active from those items?
So with your example Tanks would have 5 more armor early and they would lose 20 at lvl 18 but the tank items would provide 120% critical reduction and we will have 200 more armor on the armor items
Oh wait this didnt happen tank item got nerfed SECOND time in the row
Now do you see the problem?
Zair Umbras1 votes[{quoted}](name=Vârg Vikernes,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2015-11-12T00:24:40.565+0000)
You say that you read the patch note
So you ignore the fact that now ADCs can have 120% more critical strike change ? Or you ignore the fact that now ADCs can have 200 AD more from items plus the active from those items?
So with your example Tanks would have 5 more armor early and they would lose 20 at lvl 18 but the tank items would provide 120% critical reduction and we will have 200 more armor on the armor items
Oh wait this didnt happen tank item got nerfed SECOND time in the row
Now do you see the problem?
Can have 120% more critical strike change..? What..? If you mean they can build more crit items, then sure. They can, but it'd be at the cost of AD to make that crit work or LS to be able to sustain at all.
ADC can't get 200 more AD. At all. BT got nerfed by 5 AD, IE by 15, BotRK lost 2% of its current health per AA, most AD items have been stopped at 65 AD rather than 80 and the new LW only gives 40 AD when fully built, just like the old one while it's incapable of touching the base armors of tanks, which is actually a ton of armor as my previous post has mentioned.
Now we can see tank items, there won't ever be some weird 120% critical reduction. That sounds absolutely stupid and there's no reason for that to even exist. Seriously. That's stupid. There would be no increase of armor on items either since that would just make Rammus, Taric, and Malphite one shot anything.
Seriously. The only problem here is all of you seeing 'OHMERGERD, PRICE INCREASES AND ADC CHANGES, NERFS TO EVERYTHING BUT THE ADCS, WTF RITO'. You're all just continuing a stupid circlejerk that shouldn't even exist. ADC's got NERFED late games with LESS AD unless they give up their defensive items.
I'll even run the numbers for you. Pre-change, IE+BT+LW+PD+Mercurial, you totaled 80+80+40+80. 280. NOW. 65+75+40+75. 255. On top of that? There's no more 5% of bonus in the masteries. ADC's LOST 25 AD with a 0 defense build to gain 10% LS and less damage taken from -one- person they AA'd. Congrats. They can duel each other, that's it. Mages will still catch them off guard and explode them, tanks will still CC them into oblivion, etc.
This is on top of every ADC losing about 10 AD at max level, some losing even more like MF and Vayne losing closer to 20.
Phuc Dat Bich1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=001000010000,timestamp=2015-11-12T01:09:07.348+0000)
Can have 120% more critical strike change..? What..? If you mean they can build more crit items, then sure. They can, but it'd be at the cost of AD to make that crit work or LS to be able to sustain at all.
ADC can't get 200 more AD. At all. BT got nerfed by 5 AD, IE by 15, BotRK lost 2% of its current health per AA, most AD items have been stopped at 65 AD rather than 80 and the new LW only gives 40 AD when fully built, just like the old one while it's incapable of touching the base armors of tanks, which is actually a ton of armor as my previous post has mentioned.
Now we can see tank items, there won't ever be some weird 120% critical reduction. That sounds absolutely stupid and there's no reason for that to even exist. Seriously. That's stupid. There would be no increase of armor on items either since that would just make Rammus, Taric, and Malphite one shot anything.
Seriously. The only problem here is all of you seeing 'OHMERGERD, PRICE INCREASES AND ADC CHANGES, NERFS TO EVERYTHING BUT THE ADCS, WTF RITO'. You're all just continuing a stupid circlejerk that shouldn't even exist. ADC's got NERFED late games with LESS AD unless they give up their defensive items.
I'll even run the numbers for you. Pre-change, IE+BT+LW+PD+Mercurial, you totaled 80+80+40+80. 280. NOW. 65+75+40+75. 255. On top of that? There's no more 5% of bonus in the masteries. ADC's LOST 25 AD with a 0 defense build to gain 10% LS and less damage taken from -one- person they AA'd. Congrats. They can duel each other, that's it. Mages will still catch them off guard and explode them, tanks will still CC them into oblivion, etc.
This is on top of every ADC losing about 10 AD at max level, some losing even more like MF and Vayne losing closer to 20.
All those item got buffed and they all have CDR/LIFE STEAL/and critical so ADCs can now build way too much damage and critical all together
If you are still playing lucian or kog with I.E and B.T your problem not mine that you cant adapt the new items...so ADC earn way too much damage later on plus the L.W that you say that is "bad" it deal 15% more damage if you have 500 more hp yeah man so "bad item" and on top of that the 40% bonus penetration
And lets not forget the mastery that ADD 80 FREE AD on champions or do you forget that? because it seem that you forget that there is a mastery that ADD 80 DAMAGE on your basic attacks while tanks got what 4% damage reduction? so from the free 80 damage the ADC doing on me from their mastery i would block the 2 damage? OH MAN SO OP TANKS ARE IN A GOOD SPOT NOw...
if you cant see the problem is obvious that you are an ADC main
AND ALL ARMOR ITEMS GOT NERFED 2 TIMES IN THE ROW this is not a circlejerk go read patch notes if you dont see it
Zair Umbras1 votesYou can't possibly build all of those items all at once though... You're limited to 6 items and one of those is going to be your boots so you can even keep up with Zephyr removed...
This is seriously just a circlejerk, especially since that 80 damage is 80 ON-HIT damage AFTER you have 10 stacks. It can not crit and it's a FLAT 80 Physical damage. Very few ADC's would take 80 extra 'possible' damage over more sustain or 50% of their Bonus AD as a DoT when landing abilities.
Plus, the only two armor items that got nerfed were Warden's Mail and Zhonya's. Omen and FH have the same max armor though, so only Zhonya's was really nerfed.
Phuc Dat Bich1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1yzE3uEb,comment-id=00100001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-12T02:13:39.697+0000)
You can't possibly build all of those items all at once though... You're limited to 6 items and one of those is going to be your boots so you can even keep up with Zephyr removed...
This is seriously just a circlejerk, especially since that 80 damage is 80 ON-HIT damage AFTER you have 10 stacks. It can not crit and it's a FLAT 80 Physical damage. Very few ADC's would take 80 extra 'possible' damage over more sustain or 50% of their Bonus AD as a DoT when landing abilities.
Plus, the only two armor items that got nerfed were Warden's Mail and Zhonya's. Omen and FH have the same max armor though, so only Zhonya's was really nerfed.
It can not crit and it's a FLAT 80 Physical damage. Very few ADC's would take 80 extra 'possible' damage over more sustain or 50% of their Bonus AD as a DoT when landing abilities.
Ok i dont need to continue you just prove us that you have no idea what you talking about cya