Rengar's True Failure.

EcchiOtakuTM··10 votes·1,504 views

Rengar's rework was NOT a failure, keeping bonetooth was.

Bonetooth ALWAYS has broken rengar since RELEASE.

Bonetooth is far too inconsistent to be balancable since it's completely based on player kills.

This one is far more consistent however due to it, it's binary.

Current one enables direct FULL tank rengar with just 1 AD item. (And no it's not W that enables it because taking less damage makes the heal really minor for such a long CD and 1.5 seconds is far to reactive for tank rengar to compare when it should be used.)

It really isn't "fun" just WTF factor from 500+ AD and unlike jhin, this kitty can AA constantly. Not to mention bonetooth enables the crit+AS on assassins being sustained damage balance issue.

Now what rengar's bonetooth SHOULD have been replaced with is a kha's evolution mechanic.

This would be far more consistent since it's based off exp something you're sure to get, meaning balancable.

It would be FAR more fun because you can augment skills uniquely per match.(Even when meta skill maxes happen some kha will start augment r for more map pressure, e(rare) if the enemy reacts too well to his assassinations on their ally, w if he needs to add on a bit more cc and waveclear instead of Q.)

It fits his hunter theme because hunters aren't just about taking down prey and showing it off but taking their experienced gained from hunting to further develop their skills.

It will still envision his AvP theme because Predators have been shown to improve tech for use vs aliens.

It COULD still work off player kills, maybe per ulti rank takedown a specific enemy jungle camp or an enemy champion(unique so rank 2/3 can't be same target unless kha) (must do damage in 1.5 seconds of them dying for assist)

Hell to take it a step further killing kha doesn't augment skills until the event starts.(I also say maybe kha has to earn kills every ulti rank excluding rengar until the event starts. Which would tone him down, but my main focus is rengar.)

Could be named "Adapt" instead of evolve.

Now for rengar's base skills:

Q is SO much better than old Q finally addressed AS+Crit's balance issue(sustained damage on assassins eve, shaco and rengar had issues with it, only eve's trademark hate spikes remain, hopefully her relaunch turns her skirmisher to retain hate spikes). Now they're MUCH better clear tool. His Q's delay also improves counterplay.

W is a great assassin form of combat healing, I would say it's not comparable to the old but it does suck in jungle except for the damage. It also isn't enabling tank rengar because if you take less damage it's harder to judge when to reactively use it and has a lengthy CD making tank get far less value from it.

E, same e as always, now my issue here isn't it being a skillshot but the abuse case of just charging E for leap root is gone/given a counterable window. Why the hell were the changes to force it clunky not reverted?

R, change it to bonus damage not a crit. Overall R change, while disputed, was a dramatic improvement. Given proper counterplay, for more power. I would also go so far to say it fits rengar even more theme-wise. He's proud of himself and his skills, yes he's a combat genius, but he feels like the type who wants the thrill of having his prey knows he's coming and slowly tear them apart.

Rengar's kha evolution could MAYBE:

Grant first part of Q full AoE(not second) OR add a 3rd part to the combo

W maybe increased % healing?

E maybe 2 charges?

Ulti- Could mark targets 500 units near your marked target and they take 50% of the marked bonus damage. (Basically this empower would reveal more units near your closest and while your main mark is still juicier you'd still get slight damage on others if you can't find the right angle for the "evolved")

Remember this is WITHOUT bonetooth, I do believe rengar w/o it is great, but I still question why even if assassin patch aren't major reworks what type of idea it was to keep bonetooth.

Also some VFX and SFV could be improved.

Rengar's old q being crit animation, rengar's old W lines are few things asked for.


On a side note I think putting the same "need a specific camp or unique champion kill" to evolve would tone down kha, albeit evolved Q may still need nerfing, what if evolved Q were nerfed but evolved E could isolate units hit for 2 seconds in exchange for the bonus range?


Would love feedback on thoughts about these rengy and kha changes. However I truly feel, while it's always been there, bonetooth shouldn't be the staple.

29 Comments

Very Hard Engage3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EpmEftsM-riot-please-dont-remove-the-hunt-in-the-upcoming-assassin-rework?comment=0001000000000001

what rengar needs right now is a huge nerf bat to his passive and ult. 30% free ad, laughable, its not even a challenge to get 5 kills. just consider all the raw utility an assassin has, slow/snare, crowd control immunity, stealth, gap closer, movement speed bonus, guaranteed crit, and ofc, my fav, vision.

want to appropriately nerf rengar? limit movement speed to only the first few seconds of his ult, add 1 more ferocity stack back. and finally when rengar dies he loses his stacks just like cho, half every time. after those changes if he still needs more then tune down the raw % value and change it to a better base amount.

make him work harder for his kills instead of being a giant ball of stats.

EcchiOtakuTM3 votes

He doesn't need all that it's simply bonetooth that's breaking him everything else is in reason with proper counterplay.

Also even if you may be right about his ulti, bonetooth needs addressing first. And not in a bandaid fix which reopens feast or famine nor increasing the flat amount(further encourages NOT building AD).

Daddy Gangplank6 votes

So basically gut rengar? Lmao. Even with 5 stacks on bonetooth if he goes tank with a single ad item he won't oneshot you just like assassin rengar does. With that ad item that is most likely black cleaver he will have around 200-250 ad. This much in late game especially isn't enough to deal more than bruiser damage. If he goes full assassin then he should be rewarded with high damage because that's all that he has. If he doesn't have that then it's better to just remove him from the game. What you were suggesting for nerfs is straight up gutting him. Heck, If he's nerfed even in the slightest he's going straight into the trash can. Learn to play against him instead of complaining about him on boards.

Very Hard Engage3 votes

http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=FIERCECLAWS

rengar main doesn't want his waifu nerfed. totally unbiased at all.

"high damage is all he has" did you even read off all the needless utility i just listed?

its disgusting how you could even think about not nerfing rengar.

you have an 80% win rate with him in ranked since the assassin update, no adjustments needed, your only loss being a 20min surrender where you hadn't even gotten the chance to hit 5 stacks yet. rengar atm is not ok, you tell me how to appropriately nerf him considering your experience on the champion, dont you dare use win rate as an excuse when his popularity has well over tripled.

just look at that 50% ban rate in just 2 days.

im somewhat of a vel koz main and even i said hes too strong and needed nerfing. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/meLcqWbl-as-much-as-i-hate-to-admit-it-vel-koz-is-a-bit-op

Daddy Gangplank5 votes

I have high win rate because it's the only thing I know to play? Duh.. Sure he has a lot of stuff like camouflage(not stealth because camouflage only helps him bypass wards and yeah), the movement speed when you ult which is pretty cool if you're chasing someone but if you ask me it's only good when you're at lvl 16 wtih 40% ms on it or maybe 11(things that slow down his snowballing with ult), slow/snare-this one's pretty cool but it's pretty broken now that the slow is not decaying at it stacks up to 90%(but everyone that has half a brain maxes w now because the cd is reduced and it's over all better), Gap closer, this was in his previous kit but with smaller range earlier but it had more fade away time from bush(if you want to jump like you did before you have to use Q fast select a target and press A, thing that isn't so reliable because you are left with no damage and 3 stacks because you lose your q stack as you're not in combat), the guaranteed crit...I dunno, it's just there, it's only good if you're catching someone farming bot lane but in a teamfight the chances of getting the crit on a squishy target are minimal(at least in higher elo), and the fucking god damn vision got nerfed to the ground by only being able to see one person(the closest one) and the fact that he gets a huge ass mark and the people around him get the black border on their screen so they know a teammate is in trouble and they should rush to him. Limiting his movement speed in the first seconds of ult would make the ult more useless than it is(atm it's just for running around and maybe a free crit), adding 1 more ferocity stacks would make his burst be even more limited than it is already. And if you feel like rengar should lose his stacks on death then you're completely retarded and bs because you got stomped by him. We're working hard for kills already because of the unability to target people with our ult. And btw, I only played a few games with him in flex queue(against gold/plat players) and if you didn't already see my solo division then you should see that too. High ban rate because people are retarded and don't want to learn to play against assassins so they just ban them. I don't see any nerfs on pbe for rengar yet so I think riot thinks he's in a good spot. If they decide to nerf him they should make him way smoother to compensate but nerfing his damage would make him only be played as a fighter or tank and unless you realised yet this is an assassin rework. They said about rengar that they're fine with him killing targets swiftly, they just wanted to give people some time to react(seeing him coming from 3 miles away and the big ass mark on your head, the black border on your temamates screen and the Q cast time and the fact that it's his only reliable damage ability, also a missable skillshot).

Very Hard Engage4 votes

i built zhonyas, rylais, warmogs, had a chainvest and was working on a damn thornmail its that bad

for the sole purpose of not to get 1 shot by rengar.

and rengar still managed to 1 shot me (combo, not just the leap like he does when its just a zhonyas)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rengar+is+busted

even youtube says hes broken.

fine, dont take my word for it take the word of challenger jungle main NB3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIswLrs7us

Daddy Gangplank5 votes

You searched rengar is busted. Are you...retarded? And nb3 is usually playing vs plats and golds on lower elo accounts. Heck he didn't even keep manage to keep his account in challenger because he is trash. If you are meme-ing then good job you're really a sarcastic person If not...don't talk to me ever again LUL. Btw he crits on ult you should buy randuin dumbass.

Very Hard Engage3 votes

it doesn't matter who hes playing against, hes literally just pressing R, clicking a target, and its dieing. thats it, thats all you need to understand and see that rengar is outright dumb, no outplay, no counter play, no fight, only 100-0 deletion with as minimal interaction as possible. and its completely handed to rengar for just killing everyone once.

Daddy Gangplank5 votes

Yo...goldie...get back to elo hell 'cause you don't even belong here if you don't want to learn to counterplay champions.

Very Hard Engage3 votes

NA gold = EU challenger, you couldn't be any more of a biased assassin main.

enjoy it while it lasts, ima just play rammus and win because i understand that much.

because clearly direct counterbuilds dont work

im a mage, tell me what i can build to counterbuild a rengar, "zhonyas rylais roa" still dead. deader than dead, im dead, rengar pressed R. 50s death timer, oh look, rengars ult is off cd again... and im dead again, that was fun, good game guys.

the only "counterplay" left is a friendship circle.

Daddy Gangplank4 votes

Dude...what... How do you do teamfights there? You're in the other corner of the map 1v1-ing him or what the fuck. If you zhonya in a teamfight if he decides to jump on you then you shouldn't ever die. Zhonya counters his burst completely as every rengar will use his whole combo when jumping if he doesn't want to die because he can't emp. w and if he decides to Q again you should get him CC-ed or slowed down with rylai and he's trash. Learn to fucking play the game and stop complaining. By the way. In the ziggs game the rengar was diamond 5. He obviously has more brain than you have and more experience and he'll know to fuck you up really bad.(he's also a rengar main with around 230 games with him this season so that means he know how to get fed and how to use his strng points). Also building warmog and chain vest is retarded on a squishy champion. You could've countered him so bad just by putting a W down and then waiting in it and when he jumped just press w again. He wouldn't instantly be immune to cc because he can't stack ferocity instantly. And you just got wrecked in only 1 game and you're crying about it. Shut the hell up and stop crying like a bitch.

Very Hard Engage2 votes

theres your fallacy.

the truth is were in the game together, by definition we have the same elo. the issue is i dont play ranked, i cant reliably play uninterrupted with so many dogs.

"outplay" has nothing to do with pure stats, he wasn't playing better, he just landed all his point and click abilities and i was dead at the end of it, which isn't hard to do. "we group up" yes, rengar cant do jack, shame that doesn't win us the game while 2 lanes split push and if anyone of us goes to defend either, rengar breaks off, 500+ms, catches them, and creates a stupid situation.

Daddy Gangplank4 votes

Flex queue was fucked in the ass and still it's matching people with highly different MMRs. Stop talking pls.

Very Hard Engage2 votes

#it was normals, im playing with tons of other diamonds in normals because thats who riot says i should play against.

jesus you have a reading problem. you even looked at the game.

you should really just make a poll and see for yourself, you are a biased rengar main, ofc you need your freelo to be powerful.

Daddy Gangplank3 votes

Oh, so you're complaining about a single normal game. I thought you were playing ranked and took you seriously...

Very Hard Engage2 votes

no im complaining about the instant overnight 50% ban rate. (still rising btw, give it another 2 days)

coupled with one shot deletion which riot said they would try and avoid.

Astôlfo3 votes

lmao no. Only his passive stacking's scaling is a problem. He should not get +30% bonus AD just for killing each enemy champion 5 times. Just reduce it and maybe the 4-kills (20%) a bit and he will be perfectly balanced.

Teridax683 votes

The fundamental problem with Bonetooth Necklace is that it's a passive that rewards kills by making you better at killing. That is the very essence of snowballing in League. Now matter how much it gets tweaked or redone, its core theme will never make Rengar healthier.

I think the other issue with Rengar right now, aside from his R crit, is his Ferocity: both Rengar's W and E are designed to be used optimally in the right situations, but his Ferocity system encourages him to spam everything at once. It's part of the reason why he still has so much upfront burst, despite having one of the more reliable initiations out there, and why he still falls into similar binary patterns as before, either killing his target in under a second or dying before he can do so.

At this point, I think Rengar may be better off with Fury instead of Ferocity, especially since he's meant to be very autoattack-focused. Having him build up towards an empowered ability through basic attacks rather than in a quick sequence of abilities would give him better choice over his utility and crowd control, instead of him having to make the false choice between that power and more burst damage.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Yea I could see a fury system on current rengar fully. His new playstle is pretty close to renek.

Zetra132 votes

I actually agree with this 100%. An adapting feature, which is akin to evolve based in unique kills, would be amazing and much better than Bonetooth. As for some ideas for the possible Adapted skills...

Q=First part of Q is now a 135 degree angle ahead (leaving only behind him as a "safe spot") OR Second part of Q has a greater lunge range OR both parts of the attack now grants a ferocity stack.

W=Increased Radius OR increase burst window by .5 seconds (2 sec window for heal) OR shreds an amount of resistances based on W rank (either % or flat, depends which would be more balanced)

E= Can throw a second, weaker bola if ths first ine hits that grants less of a slow and no ferocity (purely to keep up, would barely affect damage if at all) OR Rengar now launches the Bola from a devide, having it go through minions and only stop on champions (purely to hit from over minions) OR allows Rengar to jump on target hit by Bola (basically, passive against bola targets)

R= ONLY OBTAINED AFTER ADAPTING OTHER SKILLS! Bonus damage from ultimate slowly increases as Rengar stays in his ultimate OR Rengar now sees his prey's surrounding allies, letting him be more informed before he goes after his prey OR Rengar goes on a frenzy if he kills a target within 3 seconds of exitting his ultimate, giving him a large MS boost for a set time (to allow rengar to escape. What a thought!)

I realky like this idea over BTN. Rewarding his kills with more utility is better than rewarding kills with more killing. While snowballing does exist, and is vital, Rengar shows how it can ruin an experience on both sides if poorly implemented.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly I think if they removed bonetooth, Rengar would return to his old pattern of killing the same squishy over and over again.

I think they should nerf the %AD or make it flat AD.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

It wouldn't the new kha evolution would fix it. Since it's unique kills before actually upgrading per rank.

Making it flat AD would INCREASE tank rengar who lacks AD.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I disagree.

The only nerf I feel Rengar needs, is to have the free crit removed. It's sorta cheesy, doesn't synzergize with the rest of his kit, and just feels out of place.

Get rid of the crit, and he'll be fine. Besides that, people just need to learn to play against him. Ward. Keep track of his trophies and prevent him from getting them. Take advantage of his squishy early game. If he's pure Assassin, focus fire him with CC and blow him up instantly.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Doesn't fix his tank build.

Doesn't address bonetooth being boring.

Crit is counterplayable literally only the marked target.

Bonetooth reopens the crit+as sustained dps balance issue

If the player can't kill at least 3 people throughout a game they are probably building lethality which rengar doesn't need compared to graves build(maw death dance bc pd and ie) or full tank build which are far more successful. And getting assist on the last 2 isn't hard. Or just horrible at actually making use of rengar.

Bonetooth still breaks him as it always has, it's a failed mechanic, this current one being pure feast.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

The fundamental problem with Bonetooth Necklace is that it's a passive that rewards kills by making you better at killing. That is the very essence of snowballing in League.

That's completely how the game works. If you get a kill, you get bonus experience and 300g. Everyone snowballs. Just because Rengar is a champion who excels more off of it doesn't make him unhealthy. Snowballing is not unhealthy, it's a strategy that everyone relies on.

Kindred Draven Zed Chogath all have kit mechanics based on getting kills to snowball over the course of the game (Cho'Gath is the only one who can lose anything by dying). Any champion with resets, like Katarina Khazix Irelia Twitch rely on localized snowballing to win particular teamfights.

Other 'early game' champions, like Renekton Pantheon Darius rely on snowballing to become super powerful so enemies can't catch up, without having actual snowball specific mechanics in their kits.

Snowballing in and of itself is not a bad or unhealthy strategy. It's something people can react to and prepare for by focusing on these champions early and setting them behind. Keep track of Rengar's trophies and prevent him from getting them. If he invaded your jungler and got 1, watch your bot lane and be ready to roam or TP or gank to keep him from getting trophies there. If you force him to use his Ferocity on an Empowered W, you've basically won since you've cut his damage tremendously.

The only nerf Rengar needs is to have the free crit removed. That will curb his up front burst and force him to rely on the utility of his skills. Everything else is fine.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Graves bruiser build. Maw, death dance, black clear, phantom, ie. Where is your god now?

Removing crit ulti won't fix tank either. Not to mention tank rengar will still dive without the crit anyways. Removing ulti crit won't fix anything.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

That's completely how the game works. If you get a kill, you get bonus experience and 300g. Everyone snowballs.

Everyone snowballs, but snowballing is only healthy if it's within a certain acceptable window. If there's not enough snowballing, nothing feels like it matters, but if there's too much snowballing, champions become binary and games feel like they're either won or lost due to some mistake early on. Since assassins already tend to snowball really heavily off of item leads, the last thing you'd want to do with an assassin is give them an extra snowball effect.

{quoted}

Kindred Draven Zed Chogath all have kit mechanics based on getting kills to snowball over the course of the game (Cho'Gath is the only one who can lose anything by dying).

Kindred's passive increments with jungle monsters precisely to make the effect less snowbally, Draven's a marksman, not an assassin, Zed's passive only relies on one takedown to come online, and Cho'Gath's ult is ancient. None of those are good analogues to Rengar.

{quoted}

Any champion with resets, like Katarina Khazix Irelia Twitch rely on localized snowballing to win particular teamfights.

Kat was given a heap of resets independent of getting kills in her update, Kha's reset guarantees him mobility, not kill potential, Irelia's reset is used almost exclusively on minions to jump to champions, and Twitch's reset also guarantees him utility first. That is in no way the same kind of snowballing as Bonetooth Necklace, which is purely kill-oriented.

{quoted}

Other 'early game' champions, like Renekton Pantheon Darius rely on snowballing to become super powerful so enemies can't catch up, without having actual snowball specific mechanics in their kits.

All of these champions are lane bullies, not snowball champions, and Darius becomes superpowered by getting stacks on his enemies, not by getting a large permanent power lead.

{quoted}

Keep track of Rengar's trophies and prevent him from getting them.

"Don't ever die to Rengar" isn't a particularly nuanced strategy.

{quoted}

The only nerf Rengar needs is to have the free crit removed. That will curb his up front burst and force him to rely on the utility of his skills. Everything else is fine.

The point to removing Bonetooth Necklace isn't to gut Rengar, it's to give him more consistent power. Buffing his AD growth and ratios in compensation, or putting an increase to bonus AD on his W, could end up providing similar amounts of AD, without the binariness attached to an on-kill bonus.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

i built zhonyas, rylais, warmogs, had a chainvest and was working on a damn thornmail its that bad for the sole purpose of not to get 1 shot by rengar.

Ah, yes. Thornmail. The quinsenssial anti-Rengar item. (Sarcasm, btw)

The fact that you were going to build Thornmail (A really bad item atm) shows you're misinformed.

Your choice of items isn't going to help you. Not just VS Rengar, but VS anybody. There's virtually no armor in that build; a Renekton with Black Cleaver, Tiamat, and a Long Sword would kill you just as easily. Any Assassin or ADC would kill you just as easily. Armor AND Health is required, and Zhonyas + Chain Vest is not a great amount of armor. Warmogs is specifically not an anti-Burst item; health alone won't protect you against burst and neither will Warmog's passive. Could have been a Randuin's Omen, with more armor and 10% reduced Critical Damage, as well as a slow to try and escape Rengar when he's trying to assassinate you.

I do think Rengar needs to be nerfed, but only in the crit. I'd be willing to say the flat AD on his trophies could go too. But anything more, and he'll be useless. Rengar is mostly fine. The assassins as a whole are a lot better than they were before. Learn to play against them and realize the counterplay VS Assassins isn't in their burst window; as a class, they're supposed to have limited counterplay in combat. If they manage you engage on you, you've already made a mistake. The counterplay is in planning and preparation, like warding, sticking with allies, sweeping enemy wards so Rengar can't find you, and preventing him from accessing resources (IE, counterjungling, roaming and counterganking, etc).

Also, tanks. If you're team lacks a proper tank, then you don't know how to play against assassins.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

145 armor from 2 items is virtually no armor? + ziggs base 77.6armor?????????????

???????????

222.6 = 0

so what you're saying is i need even more than 222.6 armor

or would you have prefered i had built deadmans plate/sunfire for 1000 health/ 100armor? its a trade of 200 health for 10% CDR and more damage back to rengar. (same armor, but sunfire/DMP costs more so.....)

#just to not get oneshot by rengar

i had 3.2k health, apparently thats not enough either.

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