Redemption still has HP and the buff to shields to synergize with Locket. I've been wondering if these are actually still viable on Taric because of his unique position as a hybrid enchanter/warden?
I plan to test in normals tonight, and I'll update the thread when I can. In the meantime, anyone have any thoughts on that?
La Belle Sauvage2 votesBased on typical Taric builds I think Locket will synergize better then Redemption and both should be viable.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesYes. Locket is a must, either way. Redemption actually hasn't been great on him recently (at least not early game), but I'm thinking that the changes might actually shift that. Maybe. We'll see, I guess!
chipndip12 votesYes they are. Taric works with Crucible and Redemption, and he also works with things like Knight's Vow. Building the two is still a strong option on Taric, but you need Crucible.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesYou think I need crucible? I don't like building it on Taric that much. In fact, I'd much prefer to build Ardent Censer if I was going that direction. The MR stacking is not great on his kit.
I was hoping that I could make this work without any more heal/shield items since I was running windspeaker's. Obviously, the focus is getting a strong showing from locket. It just feels kinda cheap to go windspeaker's and not combo that with redemption. Typically, that's pretty good.
chipndip11 votesWhy would he need just 60 ap? Crucible makes him more tanky and gives double the heal shield bonus that Censer gives. Censer just gives ap and movement. Sure, Censer's effect is good, but tanks now have Zeke's for that if you want that route.
I mean, like the guy explained below, this is only if you're trying to work into both effects. Redemption should be fine enough with at least Windspeaker's.
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesYou don't get ardent for the selfish stats, you get it for the ally passive
chipndip11 votesOr you can get Zeke's...although I agree that Censer might not be too bad on Taric.
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesZekes feels a bit lack luster after the changes, though I had someone run it in practice mode for a run down of how much it actually does and it works it's just not amazing and doesn't do anything close to what ardent would do for you.
But it depends how you play ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The Fuzzy 0ne2 votesDon't forget, windspeaker's works for shields too ;)
I also go windspeaker's route on taric but it's always been about the aoe defense stat bonus you give your team while also abusing your passive. I've also found that the immediate shield is easier and better to have in most cases than the aoe heal with a cast time provided. Tbh, both are still good and usable on Taric, but rather than looking at them as core items, it might be more favorable to look at them as situational. High dps or burst enemies would likely make a locket more beneficial on an all in comp, but if you have a good poke or dps comp then redemption is good for the sustain.
Arguably you could still build both anyways.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesYeah, I think I'm agreeing with you after testing things last night. Locket still feels great; redemption is pretty meh. It was never really AMAZING, but I like having the extra mana regen on Taric... boy is very thirsty for mana.
In the end, just building mana and trying to ride it out with the mana regen mastery is better, I think.
Thanks for the good discussion, though!
DeathBurst1 votesMath time:
#Solari
You need between 500 HP (level 1) and 640 HP (level 18) for the new HP ratio to compensate the nerf on Solari.
If you build Face of the Mountain, Sightstone and Redemption, you're already at 800 HP. If you go Eyes of Targon and Redemption, you're at 700 HP. Basically, if you go for the Relic Shield line of Gold items, Solari is still viable.
#Redemption
So the question is, is Redemption still viable too? To compensate the nerf on Redemption you need at least 15% increased Heal/Shield (not counting Redemption own's). If you go Windspeaker as a keystone or any Forbidden Idol item, it's roughly OK, a very slight nerf. If you take any two out of the three (Windspeaker/Censer/Mikael), it's a buff. I don't really think that Censer is good on Taric (does he have good AP ratios?) but Mikael can be a good situational pick. So you're kinda forced into Windspeaker. I believe it's Taric standard Keystone, but I'm not sure.
#Overall
I think it's still viable for Taric, but I don't play him personally, so I don't know all the subtleties of his builds. Independently of Taric's kit, typical builds that really benefit from the changes would be: Windspeaker Keystone - GP10+Sightstone (or combined item) - Boots - Solari+Redemption - (fill out your build with your choice among Mikael/Zeke/Knight's Vow/Righteous Glory/Frozen Heart/any Tank item, take two if you picked the combined GP10+Sightstone version)
If you take FotM + Ruby Sightstone you get at least 3 item actives and the reduced CD from Ruby, but you get only 1 last slot, and if you don't take Mikael, it's a slight nerf to Redemption (and I believe Knight's is more generally useful). If you take Eyes of Targon, you get two more slots so you can pick Mikael and another item.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votes
I posted that above, too; that's what I'm thinking rn.
I do go windspeaker's on Taric. It's quite good since he has a heal and a shield in his kit already. That's why this mad synergy even works. So you and agree on that point, at least.
DeathBurst1 votesI'd still go for Solari before Redemption, at least. And maybe even Knight's before Redemption. You have no Armor at all in your build before 4th item if you go for FotM, Sightstone, Redemption. Not great.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesYeah, I got the opportunity to test it in an ARAM last night... I think it's better just to lean hard into his health scaling and forgo redemption. That's my thought right now, at least. I went redemption and ardent censer to get that synergy, and it just... didn't feel worth it. The massive shield would have been better.
Having said that, allied healing is cut on ARAM. So... I could still be wrong. But I think the setup time is not worth it; by the time you can reasonably buy redemption, it's better just to get health for the locket shield.
DeathBurst1 votesRemember that the more Health you already have, the better Redemption becomes, since it's a multiplicative buff. I think Redemption as 5th item is still good.
And I definitely don't think that Censer is good (unless, maybe, you're in a full auto-attack-based team like Vayne, Yasuo, Yi, Caitlyn or something ridiculous like that). Taric only has 2 rather weak AP ratios. Unless you can really abuse Censer AS buff on your whole team, Mikael is probably better
Meanwhile, Mikael's is cheaper, with a better build path, and offer 20% buffed Heal/Shield instead of 10%. This alone should compensate the AP ratio on your heal, and it buffs solari/redemption twice as much than Censer. And Mikael's active can be hard to use, I know I'm not a fan of this item myself, but you still have to admit it's pretty strong.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votes?? Redemption doesn't scale with health now? It scales with shield/healing buffs x 3, but only locket has actual health scaling now.
There is a way to build Taric with more enchanter items, but I think the tank build is better.
DeathBurst1 votesNo, but Redemption improves Solari shield by a percent, and Solari shield DOES scale with health. So the more Health you have, the bigger the percent buff from Redemption (or any other heal/shield buff, for that matter, but if you want to take only one Idol item, Redemption is obviously the first go).
The Fuzzy 0ne1 voteseven so, it's not as strong as it was and therefore building both like that is not as efficient as building full blown tank taric or opting to go the full blown healing/shielding taric. The latter is also possible and is really good especially if you choose to go the athenes path:
or 
would work really well
DeathBurst1 votesThe thing is, the "nerf" to Solari assumes that Tank Supports build the Relic Shield line of item so that it's not really nerfed for them.
On the other hand, the "nerf" to Redemption assumes that Enchantress Supports pick the Windspeaker Keystone so that it's not really nerfed for them.
Taric is in a unique position, where he is the rare champ that both builds Relic Shield but still pick the Windspeaker Keystone. So for him, neither item is really nerfed.
Let's say you went the full Tank Route, you are at 5 items, and you have Solari and plenty of HP. Building one more Tank item with HP will increase Solari shield by a very small fraction (it's an additive increase and you already have plenty of HP). If on the other hand you round out your build with Redemption, you increase your Solari shield by 10% guaranteed, and it also works with all your other Heal and Shield (FotM, your Q, your W) which doesn't scale with HP.
Even if Redemption's active was nerfed, building one Idol item is still a good thing for Taric, and of all the Idol items, Redemption is still the best one for Taric. Despite the nerf.
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesThis argument is very much based on how you plan on playing taric and I didn't emphasize that enough in this post and that's my own fault.
In general, yes, you are correct. Taric is unique enough to not really have lost out in any way to these nerfs. But uniquely speaking, for players who prefer a tank play style where they stand at the front with taric then locket changes greatly benefit them more, and redemption changes made it so that it's not really a must get item anymore if you don't want to. On the flip side, a full healing passively played taric where you rely more on the idea of heals and shields.
it also works with all your other Heal and Shield (FotM, your Q, your W) which doesn't scale with HP.
All of that does actually scale with hp fyi
Also, I'm not saying an idol item is bad on Taric... I'm saying that though good, it's not a must as it once was. They made it so that much of the support itemization actually has a better diversity than only going for ss>gold item>boots>locket>redemption every game
DeathBurst1 votesAll of that does actually scale with hp fyi
Yes, indeed, my bad. Even though W technically scales with target's HP, so buying a Tank item for yourself doesn't increase the shield you output on your allies. (And buying Redemption still probably increases all of that more than yet another Tank item, even despite the HP ratios.)
They made it so that much of the support itemization actually has a better diversity
Yeah, and that's great, no question about it.
But back to Taric's build. Let's say you currently have: FotM, Sightstone, Boots of choice, Solari, Knight's Vow, and you want to play what you dubbed the "tank play style". In that circumstance, what would you buy as your last item? I don't play Taric myself, so I'm genuinely curious to have your feedback.
But I do think that even in that circumstance, Redemption is still the best item to round out your build, better than any other Tank item. (I might change my mind depending on how the new Zeke item turns out, I really don't have a clear picture of how good it is.)
The Fuzzy 0ne2 votesStill, getting redemption now after changes is really more about intent and how you play him as well as what situation your team is in.
As for your item question:
Zeke's
Works amazingly with Taric ult
Has armor and MR which again, works well with Taric's overall kit
Gargoyle Stoneplate (not what I personally would pick, but other Taric mains swear by it)
HP given by active is very good
General tankiness the item provides is also very good
Frozen Heart (best vs full ad teams)
Is very gold efficient
Iceborn Gauntlet (If ahead)
Gives extra damage that buffs your passive
Gives loads of mana
Gives large AOE slow
Lots of CDR
Also gold efficient
Banner of Command/ZZ'Rots
Good if you need the split pushing or sieging power
Moar defense stats
Warmog's (Something I'm currently testing)
Gives more HP for HP scaling things *HP regen is very excellent if you tend to like being at the front soaking up that damage
Spirit Visage (not what I like to take but is valued by many a Taric player)
Good Passive on Taric
MR and HP
Or of course, Redemption. It depends on you as a player and the situation you're in
DeathBurst1 votesOK, thanks for the reply. I still think Redemption has a place, even in a Tank build/playstyle, given most of your suggestions are situational, but yes we agree it's not a "must-buy" anymore.
Cheers o/
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesAh, I see what you mean. Do we have confirmation that the shield % kicks in AFTER the health scaling, though? That actually sounds pretty abusable.
DeathBurst1 votesI didn't actually test it, but I'm 99.9% sure. Every other % modification apply after ratios. Like, Spirit Visage doesn't amplify only the base values from heals, it also works with the ratios, Giant Slayer amplifies all your damage, not just the base values, etc. I see no reason that it would be different in this case.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesGood thought. might test this in customs later and let you know for sure. If that works, we're back to my original premise; this combo is OP on Taric.
DeathBurst1 votesNah, probably not OP. It's just as good as before, but it wasn't OP before. It's just that it was the only build for 90% of all Supports, and that wasn't good.
Now, Taric can still use it, but all other Supports have to change their builds. We got the diversity that we needed, and it's even better that Taric can still do that. It makes him more unique and the Roster more diverse. But it's probably not OP.
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesTry getting a warmog's instead of redemption :) it feels really nice on Taric, or you can try stoneplate which gives great defensive stats and the active works well with locket should you activate both closely together. Also the new Zekes works well on him too (as a side note).
Personally I go or 
into and 
. with is also very viable should you prefer that but more options/ideas is always good :)
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesYeah, and it depends on the game, tbh.
I've kinda grown accustomed to the SS/FotM build just because the shield on FotM scales nicely with health, too... there's some nice synergy between that and locket now. Warmog's isn't bad, but I typically prefer 
because the best thing about warmogs is the health regen, and I feel like I don't need it with the powerful heal I've got already. That said, it scales great with runic armor mastery, I'm sure.
Sidenote: this is what I love about Taric. OPTIONS.
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesYup, I definitely feel like he is the most versatile support at the moment XD
Visage is good too, I just like the max hp that warmogs would give... I just feel like there are already a lot of options for MR but they've nerfed hp in almost every tank item making warmogs precious, but that's my opinion [slayer-jinx-catface]
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesYes, and his health scalings were already important for his heal. That's a good point, too... I forget about that a lot. Haha.
Death by Glamour1 votesWhat would be your complete build with those two items ?
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesI'll probably go for my first game. If it goes that long :P
One Ashe On1 votesPersonally i was already building them on Taric as i use windspeaker blessing as mastery. Taric main strenght is the fact that he can both shield and heal, so why not using some boost ? My favorite build is this: 
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesYeah that looks really similar to what I was planning to go to. My games don't often last long enough for me to test a full build like that. I feel like my late game has suffered lately because of it XD
AlienPrimate1 votesI find Redemption to be a bad item on Taric. My goal on him is to keep one person alive for the 2.5 seconds it takes his ult to activate. I do this by building . The redemption activation time doesn't keep someone safe from burst which is why I never build it.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesYeah, I think I've landed with you on that... maybe.
The thing is, if you get the good health scaling on locket, and redemption heal buff applies AFTER that... that's OP. I'm gonna be testing it later. Thanks to Deathburs7 for that idea (see elsewhere, this thread).
DeathBurst1 votes(A quick note in passing: THIS is what a good thread in Gameplay is. People exchanged ideas, theorycrafted, learned things. We need more threads like that, and less whining/bitching/blaming. And yet, this thread only has 4 upvotes... It's sad.)
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesThanks for that! I try to make good threads... :3
And you're right. I'm gonna be try-harding in the near future to make this sub-board a lot more friendly and useful. I appreciate the feedback on that.
Feel free to tell your friends to stop by and leave an upvote for me :P