why arent marksmen and their items built around keeping distance?

Critmaster Garen·Jul 31, 2017·23 votes·1,192 views

considering their win/fail condition is supposed to be proper positioning and kiting, shouldnt their items give less benefits, the more enemy champions are in close proximity (less than around 300 range) to the marksman?

pretty much the opposite of what movement speed passive does?

why arent marksmen built around mechanics like spear, which get more effective at long distance than at close range? this includes mechanics in their kits, like attack steroids for example.

36 Comments

RalanrJul 31, 201714 votes

Because it's not just marksmen that build crit.

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Because it's not just marksmen that build crit.

ok, then why not include these mechanics in their kits?

just as a very generalizing example. why shouldnt their auto attack damage fall off the closer their target is to them? (this us JUST an example, im not proposing to actually do this in specific)

or use more abilities that scale with distance? the only one that comes to mind right now is Jinx ult and thats about it.

RalanrJul 31, 20175 votes

Probably because it'd be too easy to punish them for getting close and they'd have to buff base stats to compensate.

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 201714 votes

{quoted}

Probably because it'd be too easy to punish them for getting close and they'd have to buff base stats to compensate.

i mean. arent they supposed to be severely punished for getting close?

RalanrJul 31, 20174 votes

By being easy to kill.

Honestly I don't mind the idea of marksmen doing less damage up close.

HeresyHorusJul 31, 20177 votes

Today in Ascension, a Fizz jumped at my face trying to kill me as MissFortune but i mauled him with just 3 crit autos in less than 1.5 sec while he was waiting for his R + W knockup/proc.

damn it feels good to spam MasterYi Quinn MissFortune MonkeyKing Vayne and see assassins trying to assassinate u on them.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 1, 20172 votes

MonkeyKing is close of assassins tho

MLDzXnRRRAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

By being easy to kill.

Honestly I don't mind the idea of marksmen doing less damage up close.

Assasinating late game Nasus is easier with Zed than late game cancer like Caitlyn or Vayne.

MarshbouyJul 31, 201711 votes

Because divers and assassins would get a huge buff from this. You can't position around a Xin Zhao flashing and hopping on your ass from long range.

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Because divers and assassins would get a huge buff from this. You can't position around a Xin Zhao flashing and hopping on your ass from long range.

no you cant, thats why you have a team to peel for you and your own disegage mechanics.

if you just flash after he flash e'd you, youre already back at a distance.

MarshbouyJul 31, 20176 votes

that's easy to say until you get teammates who either picked champions with low amounts of peel, aren't currently grouped with the team, the ability is on CD, etc.

all of those things already make the game harder to win or can end a game winning fight, without the nerfs that you are proposing.

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20178 votes

{quoted}

that's easy to say until you get teammates who either picked champions with low amounts of peel, aren't currently grouped with the team, the ability is on CD, etc.

all of those things already make the game harder to win or can end a game winning fight, without the nerfs that you are proposing.

when youre not grouped with your team as a marksman, youre isolated and out of position. thats exactly the situation that should favour assassins and fighters to try and engage on you.

MarshbouyJul 31, 20175 votes

A marksman should not be punished even harder when a tank/support is pushing a lane or warding. A marksman could still be grouped with a jungler and mid but not have enough CC to truly peel them.

If you are asking for a team to be roaming in a 5 man group at all times so no one is "out of position" then fine.

Chembaron YamadaAug 1, 20174 votes

Remember the "ADC in 2017 lul" meme? I know, many people are denying it, but it actually had a reason it happened.

ADCs were weak. They were not able to accomplish anything on their own, they were highly team reliant. I know that counter argument will come, so I mention it: Yes, ADCs were mandatory in this game all this time.

Being mandatory =/= strong, though. You need someone in this game, who is able to take objectives safely and quick. That's what marksmen are offering. Ziggs was offering the same, hence why he got played at bot lane in that time. He was a viable replacement for a marksman.

If these changes would get through, playing ADC would be a pain again. You would just "take the duty", because your team actually needs someone to do the bad job. Meanwhile you are not allowed to have any power on your own.

Assassins and Divers are both subclasses who exceed at jumping in your face. Your suggestion is to completely delete the marksmans ability to defend themselves and let them hope that their team is able to protect the useless piece of meat they just became.

japhibAug 1, 20173 votes

**They already are. ** Really. If any ADC jumps into the middle of a fight, they'll die. Just the fact that they build squishy but can do a lot of damage with ranged autos means that they already revolve around keeping distance.

Oh wait, you want a new, gimmicky mechanic that makes it so jinx does even MORE damage at long range and has even LESS options when an assassin/bruiser gets within melee range of them? No thank you.

Also, the item 3046 passive is just bonus movement speed _while within 550 range _ of another champion, not just while moving towards them. ADC's are all about kiting backwards, away from melee champs, and this item synergizes perfectly with that.

Oh, you want champs that can blow people up from more than 550 range? Try Xerath Varus Lux Caitlyn Jinx Jayce

AFilthyCaitMainJul 31, 20172 votes

Jinx Ashe Caitlyn (Caitlyn because she cant just freaking use her q and ult on you while face tanking. she suppresses herself with the long cast/ windup times)

Critmaster GarenJul 31, 20173 votes

{quoted}

(Caitlyn because she cant just freaking use her q and ult on you while face tanking. she suppresses herself with the long cast/ windup times)

but in two of these champions cases its just their ultimates. im talking about abilities of their base kits and attack steroids aswell.

cait is a whole different beast, since she can animation cancel her q if im not mistaken.

AFilthyCaitMainJul 31, 20171 votes

Can only flash during her q. Her main animation cancels are, E>Q, E>W, E>Q>W, E>W>Q, AA>W>AA

LankPantsAug 1, 20171 votes

She can't animation cancel her Q, she can overlap the animation with her E, effectively Q has a 1 sec animation and E's animation+dash is about 0.6 seconds. When you overlap the dash timer eats most of the Q animation, so rather than sitting there for 1 sec you sit there for 0.4 seconds.

DunkinNoobsAug 1, 20172 votes

Keeping at a distance is already such an advantage that rewarding it further would completely warp the balance of the game. For that reason, abilities that scale with distance traveled are few and far between, the the only ones being Ashe ult, Nidalee q, Sejuani ult, Xerath E.

Critmaster GarenAug 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Keeping at a distance is already such an advantage that rewarding it further would completely warp the balance of the game. For that reason, abilities that scale with distance traveled are few and far between, the the only ones being ult, q, ult, E.

theyd also get punished harder for being at close range. i think something has to change around marksmen and counterplay added somewhere.

DunkinNoobsAug 1, 20171 votes

The only problem with such an idea is that it makes anti-dive champs more and more important in order for those adcs to keep distance. Isn't Janna OP enough already?

KloqdqAug 1, 20172 votes

Hard to add counter play to someone who just needs to right-click you.

Jhin is still one of the best adcs because at least his kit has clear strength and weaknesses. Even in his Autos that is there.

King of TroIIsJul 31, 20171 votes

Because Riot doesn't make class specific items (one of their larger faults).

i cant move wtfAug 1, 20171 votes

Honestly having marksmen do less damage at melee range would be an interesting concept to explore but the entire assassin class (and melee champs in general) would have to be reworked to allow for it as they'd be too strong as they are now. It might be better to introduce a new marksman that incorporates this and buff them significantly to compensate and test this out. I'd like to see the marksman class go in this direction.

EuthenaasiaAug 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=thI1XWP1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-08-01T03:44:21.818+0000)

Honestly having marksmen do less damage at melee range would be an interesting concept to explore but the entire assassin class (and melee champs in general) would have to be reworked to allow for it as they'd be too strong as they are now. It might be better to introduce a new marksman that incorporates this and buff them significantly to compensate and test this out. I'd like to see the marksman class go in this direction.

There is a new MOBA currently doing this and it's shaping out to be one of the most interesting moba's ive seen emerge in a while.

TwitchInMyPantsAug 1, 20171 votes

Isn't item 3094 an example of this? An item that increases your range guaranteeing an auto that outranges your foes for poke/finishing burst sounds like something that's based around staying near max range to me.

Also this idea of basing characters around range sounds a lot like Sgt Hammer in Heroes of the Storm, who's pretty well balanced around a Xerath-esque playstyle. Though she's kind of a low tier character due to low mobility and being forced to stand still, but she's got a pretty fun playstyle. ADCs are heavily based around kiting so forcing their optimal damage at max range means there's more incentive to wait for fights so they kite less and get optimal damage rather than poking and kiting where you get one optimal shot while you have to use your abilities to stop your enemies approach. I feel like an adc based around this playstyle would be better than itemization or a rework of adcs, it'd be too punishing for the role if everyone got nerfed dmg at melee range, especially when we look at Graves/Sivir/Urgot/ect.

Ionian DanceAug 1, 20171 votes

Yeah, Lucian with item 3047 item 3046 item 3812 tank adc.

OnandagaAug 1, 20171 votes

I'd like to see them create an actual Sniper champ where every auto attack fires in the direction of the cursor like Yasuo's Q, and he would have to cock his gun after every shot thus limiting his attack speed. In exchange he would have insane range, base damage and have a passive where he can "headshot" enemies for critical damage if he hits them in a certain spot, kinda like Fiora's passive. Perhaps I should think this out more and post it to concept and creations.

PePsiLemoNNAug 1, 20171 votes

There are a lot of champs who can just jump on top of you with nothing you can really do , if it was like that you would have to stay in fountain for half the fight if you hope to be useful

Pentium2Aug 2, 20171 votes

Even that would not satisfy the board's hate for the most mechanically intense class in the game.

Sure it feels like ass, when a full build ADC mauls you to death, but there is something else, that feels just like that and that is making 1 missclick in a fight and getting gangraped immediately afterwards...

Chaos Milk TeaAug 1, 20171 votes

See death for a well designed high range champion.

EuthenaasiaAug 2, 20171 votes

Because then Riot would have to give us a decent explanation why they removed Zephyr, which there isn't one.

The DeckownerAug 2, 20171 votes

Well physically bullets and arrows lose their velocity due to air friction when distance is long.

Critmaster GarenAug 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=thI1XWP1,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-08-02T04:43:46.359+0000)

Well physically bullets and arrows lose their velocity due to air friction when distance is long.

theyre all magic bullets.

The DeckownerAug 2, 20171 votes

Well Gandalf can't shoot a fireball to the moon.