if you are hard losing lane

Dr Dog·Nov 14, 2018·70 votes·19,813 views

do NOT harass your jger, do NOT flame and spam ping your jg, understand that in this snowball heavy meta its a bad idea to focus on losing lanes over lanes that are already winning and you are much more likely to win if i can get the lane thats already ahead snowballing harder and focusing around objectives with them just play it back and keep yourself safe unless i have a good opening to kill or force out the enemy laner

EDIT: and if you think flaming is gonna get them to gank you be warned thats a very good way to get your lane neglected completely by most jgers

84 Comments

TheUrbanKitsuneNov 14, 201844 votes

I mean trying to camp losing lanes in general seems like a bad idea. Plus a lot of people tend to forget that it's not the jungler's job to win lane for you, it's your job. The issue arises however in my opinion when the jungler has literally zero map pressure or presence. By that I mean as a general rule of thumb the jungler should be helping somewhere, if not your lane than in someone elses, or making sure to secure objectives.

Dr DogNov 14, 20189 votes

it is, a awful idea BUT if there is an opportunity to help out you should take it and you should always be winning at other areas of the map, but it certainly is not my job to win your lane for you

HügöNov 14, 201811 votes

The job of a jungler is that of everyone lese too, win against your "lane opponent" so the enemy jungler. What laners don't understand when they die to the enemy jungler they feed the oppent of their jungler which is the same as when their jungler walks into the lane and dies to the lane opponent. But they don't care if they die to the enemy jungler cause "lul jungle difference"

SanKakUNov 14, 20185 votes

Yeah I hate this so much, especially is problematic when getting really bad supports they don't know how to to ward and just keep feeding the enemy jungler meanwhile the opponents seem to have wards everywhere. It's enough to make someone quit jungle because they rely too much on not having a trolling support.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MNov 14, 20186 votes

I mean, if 1 jungler is getting significantly more succesful ganks off and getting ahead b/c of that, wouldn't that be him getting ahead because he's the better jungler?

demoted to ironNov 15, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I mean, if 1 jungler is getting significantly more succesful ganks off and getting ahead b/c of that, wouldn't that be him getting ahead because he's the better jungler?

Eh, there are plenty of scenarios where this isn't true. If you have 3 losing lanes as a jungler your best bet is to farm up most of the time. If 2/3 of your laners are hard pushed to the opposing laner's tower consistently, the opposing jungler would likely have way more successful ganks. Or if you're playing something farm-heavy like Rengar and the other jungler gets tons of ganks off pre-6, there's nothing you can really do to put pressure out pre-6 on Rengar unless you can set up a brush gank, which is very situational, can only do for 2/3 lanes (and only reliably for botlane) and you usually can only get away with once.

EDIT: Plus judging a jungler just off of volume/success of ganks is pretty narrow and not a great metric to judge junglers off of.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MNov 15, 20182 votes

Lmfao, in order for me to be wrong yall are creating Jungler "nightmare scenarios" "3 losing lanes!"

Thats clearly not what i meant, and yes Map prescence (ganking lanes) Is not the ONLY way to judge a jungler but it is certainly one of the major ones. LMFAO

But i love how most of the replies are people trying to make excuses for the jungler, because its gotta be the laners fault right? you didnt just get out jungled, nah its the laners who were wrong. LMFAO

demoted to ironNov 15, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Lmfao, in order for me to be wrong yall are creating Jungler "nightmare scenarios" "3 losing lanes!"

Thats clearly not what i meant, and yes Map prescence (ganking lanes) Is not the ONLY way to judge a jungler but it is certainly one of the major ones. LMFAO

But i love how most of the replies are people trying to make excuses for the jungler, because its gotta be the laners fault right? you didnt just get out jungled, nah its the laners who were wrong. LMFAO

Prime example of a straw-man argument. Clearly no use trying to have even any semblance of discussion with you.

HügöNov 15, 20181 votes

He gets ahead because the enemy had worse laners. When you want to gank someone succesfully you, as a jungler, give the outcome of the gank complelty over to the laner. It is like a turn based game. Both laners make their moves like: A goes for harass, B reactes with fall back and so forth. You as a jungler want to gank so you amke your turn going into river bush/tri bush. Now it is the enemys turn he has a few options depending on his earlier moves. He wareded earlier so he will walk away. Did he not ward and stay where he is it is the turn for your allied laner. Either he decides to commit to the gank or just ignores it. If he ignores it you, as a jungler, can go for the gank and probably not succeed with it or just go away. I hope I could describe it good enough.

Original SinNov 15, 20181 votes

Plus a lot of people tend to forget that it's not the jungler's job to win lane for you, it's your job.

Sorry but this is wrong. Some lanes can't be won. You can survive these lanes or lose these lanes. Not win these lanes. How do you win lane as a vayne janna vs a draven thresh or brand etc. Impossible. Just like leblanc vs lux/ziggs etc. Actually impossible. The jungler needs to help these lanes by alleviating pressure on laners so that they dont get snowballed on because afk jg. Jg wins your lane for you in this season. Jg is the most important role.

cageliriousNov 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but this is wrong. Some lanes can't be won. You can survive these lanes or lose these lanes. Not win these lanes. How do you win lane as a vayne janna vs a draven thresh or brand etc. Impossible. Just like leblanc vs lux/ziggs etc. Actually impossible. The jungler needs to help these lanes by alleviating pressure on laners so that they dont get snowballed on because afk jg. Jg wins your lane for you in this season. Jg is the most important role.

Ah Janna and Ardent sensor supports from last season. Is that the reason the meta for this season seems to be a meta of one of the bot lanes losing a tower in 8 minutes or less and costing their team the game. Last season's meta was too forgiving for mistakes and seems to have made a lot of bot laners forget how to actually play the game. On top of that it seems like ADCs in general this season expect the jg and mid to be their 2nd and 3rd support. And because they don't know how to farm from behind and farm a losing lane sothey constantly come mid and steal my farm on top of everything which then makes me fall behind because I can't get my third item spike until alot later than It should happen

EthosTerrosNov 15, 20182 votes

Agree and for that reason I always make my lane easy to gank. Vision, sweep, stuns prepared and harass etc. I've almost never had an experience where my jungle ganked and it didn't at least get a flash, but more often than not gets an easy kill because of good wave control and proper laning in general. If I know it's dangerous and I can get all in I'll just safe farm til he gets there. It's foolish to ignore my lane because of how easy it is to play off of me. I might get frustrated if jungle is afk crugs or something but ultimately it's my job to win lane, I can control my game, not his. it's effort on both sides, but it's stupid to completely absolve yourself of responsibility, feed your lane 3 solo kills at like 5 minutes, then blame your jungler for you sucking.

hi ìm grootNov 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean trying to camp losing lanes in general seems like a bad idea. Plus a lot of people tend to forget that it's not the jungler's job to win lane for you, it's your job. The issue arises however in my opinion when the jungler has literally zero map pressure or presence. By that I mean as a general rule of thumb the jungler should be helping somewhere, if not your lane than in someone elses, or making sure to secure objectives.

Really dislike when someone posts something like this. It is the JG's job to win top lane, it is the jg's job to win top lane, it is the supports job to win top lane, it is the adc's job to win top lane. There is no aspect of that game that does not effect you, so play as if it's your problem.

And that's from a jungle main.

OneMustFallNov 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi ìm groot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tfIsVRdI,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-11-15T17:30:54.765+0000)

Really dislike when someone posts something like this. It is the JG's job to win top lane, it is the jg's job to win top lane, it is the supports job to win top lane, it is the adc's job to win top lane. There is no aspect of that game that does not effect you, so play as if it's your problem.

And that's from a jungle main.

Exactly.

That's the problem with a lot of bad junglers and people who post these topics, they have that poor attitude where it's not their problem. I literally have seen junglers be right next to a tower about to fall cause the laner got pushed out and had to recall and just completely ignore it and give up FB tower. That shit drives me crazy cause even if you're not gonna gank you can still stop the enemy from getting the tower and give your other laners a chance to get their tower.

"Not my job" is the battlecry of someone who shouldn't be playing Jungle.

hi ìm grootNov 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Exactly.

That's the problem with a lot of bad junglers and people who post these topics, they have that poor attitude where it's not their problem. I literally have seen junglers be right next to a tower about to fall cause the laner got pushed out and had to recall and just completely ignore it and give up FB tower. That shit drives me crazy cause even if you're not gonna gank you can still stop the enemy from getting the tower and give your other laners a chance to get their tower.

"Not my job" is the battlecry of someone who shouldn't be playing Jungle.

It's a really common attitude in low elo. Like they don't care as much whether they win or lose, so long as they can convince themselves its someone elses fault when it happens.

Sergeant HbA1cDec 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi ìm groot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tfIsVRdI,comment-id=0000000400000000,timestamp=2018-11-16T08:32:56.180+0000)

It's a really common attitude in low elo. Like they don't care as much whether they win or lose, so long as they can convince themselves its someone elses fault when it happens.

Or when the enemy jungler is harassing a lane that could be turned into an easy double kill. If someone sets up a tent it's effectively a 2v1. Junglers who don't pressure or continue to farm chickens while the enemy jungler is bringing home the bread are a bane upon the Rift.

OtterlyLostNov 14, 201813 votes

Depends on your definition of losing. I've literally had junglers ignore my lane when I was pushed in, they had no sums, we'd only died once(and it went on the support, not the ADC), and we were even in CS. :/ dude refused to gank or show bot even once.

TheUrbanKitsuneNov 14, 20184 votes

What was the matchup though? Some lanes are way easier to gank than others. It's important to know the matchup in bot especially, because if the enemy lane has a very strong and aggressive early lane a gank can easily get turned into a triple kill for them-- especially if they already have a lead.

OtterlyLostNov 14, 20183 votes

I know the match ups bot lane, thank you. I also know that there is no reason for a shaco to not gank a Cait/Pyke lane if his laners are a braum and a tristana. Two champions that have decent gank assist on a cait who has no flash and no peel because her support is a pyke. Dont even have to kill them; just make pressure so I'm not trapped under tower and theres hope for him to get dragon.

TheUrbanKitsuneNov 14, 20189 votes

I didn't say that you didn't know the matchups... lol Was asking you what it was. No need to get so defensive. But I'd argue even though Caitlyn isn't the best ADC right now she's still fairly safe because of her range, and Pyke, being possibly the safest assassin ever has good disengage on his E to peel for the Caitlyn, and W for himself.

Plus you said the kill was on their support-- PYKE, support. Pyke with a lead is terrifying, lmao. You can't just say "oh it's ok the kill went to their support" in a Pyke lane. Especially if he got it with ult.

I honestly don't blame Shaco for not wanting to gank.

Evil JesterNov 14, 20189 votes

Also quit pinging for ganks when the enemy is under their tower at full HP. I'm not tower diving for you at level 3 jack ass!

HateDaddyNov 14, 20188 votes

Yes but at a certain point you DO HAVE to do something to help that losing lane or you’re going to be missing your inhib by 15-20 minutes, especially in top lane. I’ve no problem with the logic of ganking lanes that are ahead or even but do not use this as an excuse to ignore a hard losing lane to the point where your inhibitor is gone because that is equally the junglers fault as it is the laners, especially if the laner decides to stop dying and wait for help.

PB4UAMENov 14, 20184 votes

Or particularly when the enemy jungler is diving, ganking, etc the lane that is losing, or especially if the lane is only losing to begin with because of said jungler interference.

hewhodoesnotcareNov 14, 20187 votes

As sky William put it so eloquently. If ur behind in farm and kills I ain't coming. My time invested in another lane to try and get them ahead is much better used there.

Spicy RiceNov 14, 20186 votes

Alright man, lets just ignore irelia sitting top, having free farm because i can't contest, and she knows you aren't coming top. I'm sure that this isn't going to come bite us in the ass 20 mins later.

Sometimes, you need to understand that I'm not asking for a gank because i want to carry, but because my enemy laner is a very serious threat, and I believe that letting them have free reign is worse than getting someone else on our team ahead.

Dr DogNov 14, 20183 votes

ya because feeding your fed duelist a double is gonna help a lot more than pushing a lead with our hyper carry adc or our mid, ofc id help out if i have an opportunity but im not gonna go out of my way

WatchYourHeadM8Nov 14, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tfIsVRdI,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-11-14T21:00:17.858+0000)

ya because feeding your fed duelist a double is gonna help a lot more than pushing a lead with our hyper carry adc or our mid

Then don’t let her get fed you idiot you don’t have a fucking lane opponent. God low elo junglers may have the worst game knowledge of any role

HeeroTXNov 14, 20185 votes

Rebuttal: If you're not gonna help my "losing" lane, then don't expect me to be effective later and don't blame me if my lane opponent is shoving your head up your butt later. Personally, 9 times out of 10 I don't care if you leave my lane alone entirely, but then either a) you better be snowballing the hell out of the other lanes because their jg is trying to feast on mine, or b) you better at LEAST be killing keeping their jg out of my lane by making him deal with you elsewhere. If your "lane" opponent is in MY lane all the time (this goes for mid too) then you BETTER be making him pay for it elsewhere.

SanKakUNov 14, 20182 votes

I think ganking for your losing lane in general is fine, but if the jungler is already getting ganked himself, then ganking for his team's losing lane is only going to put him even more behind when the gank fails and the winning lane even more ahead. It could cost your entire team the game, his decision to gank that lane even once. I don't think you understand how dangerous the proposition is. If the jungler is doing fine and didn't get ganked, then it's reasonable to suppose he might gank for you. But it still in general shouldn't be expected. If he's picking up objectives without ganking your lane, then he's still doing a good job. If he's not ganking for you and he's not getting objectives, then either he's doing something wrong or the rest of your team is. It might be his fault and maybe instead of his, it's someone else's on the team but not yours. Don't jump to conclusions.

HeeroTXNov 15, 20181 votes

And that's FINE. But if I'm losing my lane, and you're not helping because you KNOW I'm losing my lane then you focusing elsewhere better have a plan to win the game without my help, because it AIN'T coming. The OP's point is also bad because "play safe" isn't possible in this snowball META. If I'm "hard losing" lane, then I can pretty easily be dove under turret. So I either sit uselessly out of range of pretty much anything, or I put myself at risk to TRY to stay remotely relevant.

IMO, jg doesn't need to actually GANK. If you're worried about dying, then don't be sneaky AT ALL, just show yourself as clumsily as possible and hopefully you can make the opponent back off. I've had multiple "failed" ganks onto myself that gave my opponent breathing room to at least farm up to a point that reduced advantages I'd been building. That's one thing that's AWFUL about all the snowball-loving, impatient people that wanted this META. It's not always about KILLS, sometimes it's about carving out subtle advantages that pay off LATER.

SanKakUNov 15, 20181 votes

You make a good point, that playing safe is overrated, but we don't know exactly what he meant by that. Maybe he means buy resistance items, maybe he means hug tower. Could mean something else entirely like 'dodge a damn skillshot'. And you're right. If you just go straight at someone, sometimes you can get them to back off of your ally. Especially if your ally can get in some free poke due to your presence might it be worth your time. Of course, I've had times where I tried to do something like that and the enemy lane jumped on me 1v1(or worse, their lane opponent ganks you while you're on the way with their jungle ally's help) and I lasted for a while but the ally didn't lift a finger to help. That kind of thing might happen too often to some junglers and their PTSD prevents them from helping lanes when they need it the most.

No flash no lifeNov 14, 20184 votes

The problem is ppl don't prioritize winning over their game experience.

They'd rather be the one doing work rather than allowing the team to carry instead, because that's not fun, even if they know which option benefits more for the team as a whole.

Doge2020Nov 14, 20182 votes

Huh I must be different than most people who play this game. as a supp player I am used to my team doing a bunch of the carrying, I just do what I can, pull my weight and try to help my teammates from falling behind.

And I also play a bunch of champs that tend to lose lane a lot, like Nasus lol.

SanKakUNov 15, 20181 votes

If you play something that's not support, you'll find that out really fast first hand. I play support because when I don't, I have to deal with toxic support players that never try to support or I get the 'innocent ones' that won't step up and farm when their bottom lane ally is incompetent.

MerevelNov 14, 20183 votes

The only time I have ever complained is when it was an even match up and the jungler never ganked, when even one gank would have been game changing. Well and junglers who refuse to gank at all or just feed.

Dr DogNov 14, 20184 votes

ya if its even and you arent shoved up theres no reason you shouldnt get a gank unless your vsing someone like camille who can just e across the lane back to tower

Scorpio SznNov 15, 20183 votes

Nobody cares because nobody wants to take responsibility for the fact they lost lane fair and square. It’s always “lol ig difference” or “that champ is broken” rather than “I lost lane what can I do to learn from this so I improve as a player”?

EcophileNov 15, 20183 votes

You should ignore those players...

Jack GarrusNov 15, 20182 votes

''...because you are gonna to be harassed and flamed. You chimp.''

SexualNutsNov 15, 20182 votes

Generic topic. Ultimately it is never correct to flame and harass a teammate. That's a given. Anyone who disagrees with this very statement is likely to be an a-hole.

HOWEVER, there are circumstances where the jungler practically trolls a lane by not ganking. If the enemy jungler is hard camping a lane, the team jungler really should at least consider a counter gank when near, and pressuring other lanes/objectives when not near. To see your own jungler at the nearest camp just AFK-farming while you are being tower dived is absolutely infuriating and borderline trolling/griefing.

I'm a top laner/jungler so I see both sides of this argument. Again the bottom line is flame/harassment is always wrong regardless of the situation, but there are times when the jungler does boderline troll by not even consider helping (even when they know where the enemy jungler is). Likewise we often see laners going AFK because they gave up for no good reason.

Only 5 or 6 games ago I practically played 2v1 top lane for the first 12 mins. Luckily that was a game where I played my best and ended up going 15/1 and carrying the game. However, not once did my jungler gank, ward, help, communicate or even consider pressuring the map elsewhere while I was getting perma camped. And that, for me was OK. What wasn't OK was that the jungler went to my lane on 2 occasions when I backed, to clear full waves. That is griefing.

OneMustFallNov 15, 20181 votes

I mean if I recognize my jungler is bad and I've getting camped then I usually just give up the lane and towers until my team is forced to rotate. I've played with good junglers and the good ones aren't the ones that ignore lanes because they're behind. Not ganking losing lanes is just a excuse bad junglers use because they're not good enough at the champ they're jungling with. There's no point in me getting frustrated and tower dived for 15 minutes by two people if my jungle doesn't want to help. Just take the loss and move onto the next game.