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Xenogenic needs to see more use reworking outdated champs

Dr Dog··75 votes·18,559 views

for those of you who dont know, so far Xenogenic's track record consists of the xin zhao rework and most importantly nunus rework keep in mind he's behind the gameplay of the champs not the story etc. these two outdated champions have had in my opinion some of the best and most successful reworks gameplay-wise while keeping their core identitys and delivering on the champions fantasies extremely well, i think Xenogenic with his track record so far should be the go-to for reworking outdated champions and id love to see what he would do with champions such as yi and trynda. we need more reworks like xin specifically aka smaller reworks that revamp older champions while keeping their simplicity for newer players which is something very important that seems like it will be lost on future reworks with how reworks have been recently turning simple champions like akali and irelia into high skillcapped overloaded champions.

it may just be luck sure but i think he has a very bright future as a gameplay designer at riot and i hope to see his name at least once in this years roadmap on the off chance they see this keep up the outstanding work Xenogenic!

79 Comments

saltran22 votes

I want him to work on Vi

And if he's good at reworking why not let him on reworks ?

Last reworks as Irelia, Aatrox or Akali are more balance problems than new chamos as Neeko/Pyke.

Dr Dog10 votes

100% yes yes yes, him on a vi mini rework would be a gift from the gods lol

AetherArising3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T19:08:31.045+0000)

100% yes yes yes, him on a vi mini rework would be a gift from the gods lol

hell yeah. her W could use changes to really bring out that "Vault-breaker beat-em-up" champ a little more. The armor break is nice af but its the spell you max last because the reward to upping it early is too tiny to count. you want armor%break lategame when everyone has armor, not early

Alternatively, her Q or E. Q is nice, but doesnt go through walls nearly consistantly enough, i wouldn't change it if i were re-doing vi. the E is essential to her combo and i like the charges system, so it'd have to be a good change.

One option is to take the xinzhao approach, combine her passive or an ability with another, and give her a new ability. I'd combine W and passive since W has no cd in the first place and you get first solely because its the best to clear jg, but you lose on any ability to level2 gank. I'd go with this approach if i were the one updating her, but she'd need base nerfs to compensate for getting an extra ability. Shrug I'd love to see it tho, i hope he does it someday xD

Z3Sleeper13 votes

I know how to rework Vi into a viable champion.

Passive - Increased from 10% ==> 20% max health shield. Now only blocks the primary damage type of the champion you attacked Q - Now shoots a hookshot onto a wall. Recasting towards a champion causes Vi to lunge towards them E - New effect: After using Excessive Force it can be cast again within 3.5 seconds. Recasting it after 1.5 seconds converts it to true damage. R - Reworked: Instead of knocking the target up, Vi creates an arena around the target that only the target can't move out of. During this she deals % health damage to the target.

Sir Prepuzius3 votes

more like how to rework her as a broken camille clone

XL BENCH PRESS9 votes

https://img.memecdn.com/whoosh_o_1219169.webp

Sir Prepuzius1 votes

damn, i usually get stuff...

XL BENCH PRESS3 votes

we all have our good days and bad days xD

Akali Prime1 votes

why does vi need a rework?

Emo Twink2 votes

She is actually having work done by her original creator (Riot August; Jinx, Ekko, Jhin) :D The changes look promising.

https://twitter.com/RiotAugust/status/1087918685866651648

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Link to this?
I don't remember reading anything about her in quite a long while.

Emo Twink1 votes

oh just click on the image, the boards just transformed the link into the first image in the tweet.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Yea, i was on mobile and it was an image.
Then i switched to desktop and hovered over it, turns out it's a twitter link as well.

Changes look promising, if they ship. Vi was transformed into a singular "lock an load" champ and her durability left a lot to be desired. I wish i could play her a bit squishier than the usual bruiser items but it's really painful not being able to kill isolated targets and lose the gap closers (R + Q) and then be left in the middle of their team, getting pooped on.

Glauciane2 votes

{quoted}

I want him to work on Vi

And if he's good at reworking why not let him on reworks ?

Last reworks as Irelia, Aatrox or Akali are more balance problems than new chamos as Neeko/Pyke.

LEAVE VI ALONE She's decent and playable, i don't want her to get overpowered, then banned, then nerfed to death

Yraco2 votes

That's why he should be the one to rework Vi. He tends to keep the core of a champion to bring into a new league instead of making a new champion with the same name or making something that is impossible to balance. He has currently dealt with Nunu and Xin which are both possible to balance, fun to play and relatively true to their old designs.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

I'm hoping Vi gets some love. I am happy with her current kit but she actually needs updated tools to do her job.

kingDeDeDarius1 votes

{quoted}

I want him to work on Vi

And if he's good at reworking why not let him on reworks ?

Last reworks as Irelia, Aatrox or Akali are more balance problems than new chamos as Neeko/Pyke.

Does vi need a rework? She seems fine to me, and with her R, she seems to be even more attractive with all the new hypermobile remakes and new champs that come out. She can lock them down better than anyone.

Moody P6 votes

Nunu did not keep his core identity. He's great for small updates but keep him off VGUs

Dr Dog18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-22T20:45:25.655+0000)

Nunu did not keep his core identity. He's great for small updates but keep him off VGUs

how so? hes still a great counter jger with his staple ult and chomp that now works on champions too, only "Core" he didnt keep was being an easy point and click champ

Moody P4 votes

Nunus counter jungle and objective control are shells of what they used to be and he has almost no focus on his original value of being a buff/debuff tank. Nunu has value in generic means of offering so so engage and modest CC while being the only tank with a jungle clear that doesn't make you cry

Dr Dog10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T20:52:30.365+0000)

Nunus counter jungle and objective control are shells of what they used to be and he has almost no focus on his original value of being a buff/debuff tank. Nunu has value in generic means of offering so so engage and modest CC while being the only tank with a jungle clear that doesn't make you cry

his new passive is still a buff to an ally he never lost that and his "debuff" was his slow that his e now has along with aoe hard cc, his jg clear is fine rn and didnt change a huge amount, his objective control with his chomp is completely unchanged too so i dont see what your getting at there

Moody P3 votes

his passive sucks. It's a rank 1 blood boil (for the entire game) with a third of the duration. This also affects his clear and objectives greatly; having an AS steroid for twelve seconds is a lot more impactful than 4

nunus debuffs were AS slows. He had two of them. Both are gone. His identity as the buff and debuff tank is more or less entirely erased.

Dr Dog3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:50:35.148+0000)

his passive sucks. It's a rank 1 blood boil (for the entire game) with a third of the duration. This also affects his clear and objectives greatly; having an AS steroid for twelve seconds is a lot more impactful than 4

nunus debuffs were AS slows. He had two of them. Both are gone. His identity as the buff and debuff tank is more or less entirely erased.

lets be real people didnt know him for that as much as they did his ult one shots and annoying counter jging both of which are still there, ofc with a bit of counter jging power taken in return for gank power

Abibyama II1 votes

Yeah i don't think people didn't give a shit about his debuffs.

E: clarified as subjective opinion

Z3Sleeper4 votes

Very untrue. It's a massive part of the reason he was played top lane for a while. He won trades by slowing the resident fighter's attack speed (alongside dealing wonky damage and healing for a ridiculous amount).

That's like saying noone gives a shit about Fiora's Parry AS slow. It's absolutely crippling.

Abibyama II1 votes

Yeah I didn't mean it to be a fact, my subjective opinion.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

o dats cool then

Moody P3 votes

nobody picked Nunu competitively for AP meme builds

you picked him because he could give your ADC a hefty AS steroid after he was done doing his early game thing while heavily crippling the enemy ADC - and then later on he became a funnel for APCs when they added that to blood boil

Dr Dog1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:10:40.246+0000)

nobody picked Nunu competitively for AP meme builds

you picked him because he could give your ADC a hefty AS steroid after he was done doing his early game thing while heavily crippling the enemy ADC - and then later on he became a funnel for APCs when they added that to blood boil

competitive builds arent always the champions identity, and as i said in another comment old nunu was pretty much a stat checker which is a problematic design for a champion and usually a good sign out an outdated kit, they kept nunus core part while shoving out his outdated design flaws that needed changing which is what a rework should aim to do

Moody P2 votes

pretty much a stat checker

i've wasted my time here

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Psst, his debuff was an attack speed slow on his snowball.

Dr Dog1 votes

{quoted}

Psst, his debuff was an attack speed slow on his snowball.

ya i realize that no, but why would riot want to keep nunu basically a stat checker? stat check champions are unhealthy design i see why they got rid of it

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Correct

oortoomeebreesuu2 votes

Gotta agree, Nunu kind of sucks. I only really like what they did to his E, just because it's less toxic than his old one. W is a clunky Rammus impersonation, who himself is clunky, and the passive is virtually non-existent.

Dr Dog8 votes

{quoted}

Gotta agree, Nunu kind of sucks. I only really like what they did to his E, just because it's less toxic than his old one. W is a clunky Rammus impersonation, who himself is clunky, and the passive is virtually non-existent.

he only sucks because hes a team reliant tank and thats kinda the worst type of champion rn, but his kit is well designed and you can always go ap for a bit of fun its perfectly meta , and his passive is much better than you probably think as it gives the ally with the most attack speed near you 20% aa speed and 10% ms plus the aoe helps a lot with raptor clear

oortoomeebreesuu1 votes

In almost any context, I would choose another jungler over Nunu, or another tank over Nunu. I'm biased, I'm sure, from having never seen a good Nunu, and I understand that jungle & tank are two hard boxes to check, but as long as Sejuani exists, I'm going to have to say Nunu is a bad champion.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:45:20.238+0000)

he only sucks because hes a team reliant tank and thats kinda the worst type of champion rn, but his kit is well designed and you can always go ap for a bit of fun its perfectly meta , and his passive is much better than you probably think as it gives the ally with the most attack speed near you 20% aa speed and 10% ms plus the aoe helps a lot with raptor clear

Nunu is actually a great champion right now. He has 52% winrate according to champion.gg and 53% winrate according to lolalytics. His playrate is low, though. On my opinion the only reason why Nunu is not OP is because the meta does not suit him at all.

Blue Moon Wolf5 votes

Honestly I'd love it if he worked on MonkeyKing. From what Riot said they are looking at doing small work on him and he really nailed Xin's update in a way that both kept him similar to how he played before while giving him new tools to mess with, all while not breaking him. Would be nice to see what he could do with Wukong's kit.

Dr Dog5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:46:15.426+0000)

Honestly I'd love it if he worked on MonkeyKing. From what Riot said they are looking at doing small work on him and he really nailed Xin's update in a way that both kept him similar to how he played before while giving him new tools to mess with, all while not breaking him. Would be nice to see what he could do with Wukong's kit.

ya i think he could do wukongs kit well

Kattzy3 votes

I agree with you completely. That said, you might want to rethink saying things like "he has a bright future as a game designer" and his success "may just be luck" when he has been a game designer for over a decade and has founded multiple businesses lol. It's one thing to say that about a newcomer to the business but this is a veteran designer so it comes across a tad condescending, which I am sure you did not intend!

Dr Dog1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with you completely. That said, you might want to rethink saying things like "he has a bright future as a game designer" and his success "may just be luck" when he has been a game designer for over a decade and has founded multiple businesses lol. It's one thing to say that about a newcomer to the business but this is a veteran designer so it comes across a tad condescending, which I am sure you did not intend!

oh i didnt intend that at all i ment more of at riot specifically as opposed to in general, and the luck part was more of him only having 2 champions worked on so far so i didnt wanna kinda over blow things and assume y'know

Kattzy1 votes

Makes sense <3

Dr Dog1 votes

{quoted}

Makes sense <3

dont worry i changed it a bit ^^

fire2632 votes

Going to be completely honest, I've heard of this guys name but never knew what he reworked or did. If he did rework Xin and Nunu, I would love for him to rework some of the more simpler champions so they can keep up with today's kits without having to make them have massive, overloaded kits. Simple champions like Aatrox and Akali now become overloaded messes of complexity, and I feel newer players just wouldn't want to play as/against them just due to the fact that they have so many mechanics that you have to learn.

Unfortunate I've never heard of this guy much before, but I do agree that he should work on some of the champions intended to be simple for this next coming year!

Shattered Mind2 votes

reqork teemo and zoe and master yi. or just remove them from the game.

Axxuka2 votes

SolCrushed also got a great record for champion reworks and his single new champ :

Galio Been one of the most popular rework ever, like it or not. Gragas Viktor Poppy Sejuani The only ''Fail'' imo and it was mostly due to the team still pushing class updates even if they created alot of problems. Viktor Yorick Gangplank Irelia Overloaded... but one year later they are getting rid of two passives. Neeko

Overral he does great. Same for August (Jhin Jinx Vi Ekko Gnar ), hence why I'm hyped for Kayle ad w/e he managed to get in for Morgana. He also did the Rengar latest REVERT

Stashu redeemed himself from Cassio extreme farming passive (Even if she was strong, the passive was a shore and not fun), he's behind Fiora Vladimir Talon and Evelynn reworks

The King Diamond1 votes

Give a bit love for Kayle :(

ZaneShadow1 votes

I'd be facinated to know what they could do with tryndamere rework. He's supposed to be throwing himself into battle so I'd love to see him aimed more at team fighting rather than a really frustrating to deal with split push strategy.

The Highest Noon1 votes

Sion's rework was the best rework of all time and you can't convince me otherwise, especially using Xin (which wasn't really a champion rework as much a gameplay update. Nunu's rework is fine; though I disagree that it kept to his core gameplay design--in that regard, I DO think that it's a fitting and necessary update to the champion. I think all the reworks are fitting and necessary. But in terms of the best rework to base their future reworks on? Sion. Definitely Sion. He went from ugly shit to a goddamn masterpiece.

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