About lifesteal: Why don't they give it the same treatment they gave to Wota's spellvamp?

YumaS2Astral··2 votes·787 views

Nerf lifesteal on items (including Death's Dance which is technically not lifesteal). However, make lifesteal ignore armor. Now, lifesteal can be better balanced by not making it suck against armor stackers (if you don't have armor penetration) and not be opressive against squishies. It also makes it so that you can better know how much a character will heal with their auto-attacks. It is hard to estimate how much one will heal with lifesteal because it is reduced by armor, including base armor, so you are in pratice healing less than you should unless you have armor penetration. It means that lifesteal has to be high so that it is decent against armor stackers, but this makes it opressive against squishies that can't instantly 100-0 you.

In the past, Riot changed WotA for that exact reason. Back then, the spellvamp was higher, but because it directly scaled with the damage dealt, magic resistance would reduce it. This allowed you, for example, to counter Vladimir by building a single magic resistance item. Not only this would make you resist his damage, but also reduce his sustain. This made it more difficult to balance Vlad, as he had to have higher healing than usual, which would make him opressive if ahead, or against squishies. Champions with natural healing on their kits would also face the same problem. Examples include Renekton and Swain. Riot made it so that their sustain, instead of scaling with the damage they dealt, it would scale off a separate value. In case of WotA, they made it so that the spellvamp ignored magic resistance, then they reduced the spellvamp to compensate. Boom. Now Vlad could still sustain against opressive matchups but now he wouldn't be opressive himself if the opponent couldn't afford to build magic resistance or if he was ahead.

18 Comments

Paroe1 votes

i... dont think making lifesteal work with premitigation damage would be smart. Mostly because marksman can get 300AD with 100% crit - thats potentially 750 premitigation damage to be healed from. Per hit. The reason why premitigation worked for WotA was because it was on spells, which have cooldowns. item 3072 item 3153 item 3812 item 3074 Say we do what youre suggesting. BT: 15% lifesteal Botrk: 10% lifesteal R-hydra: 10% lifesteal Deaths Dance: 10% phys to health

You cant really go below 10%, and BT is meant to be THE life steal item. If you lower it to 10%, it just kind of... feels wrong. 10% premitigation is also a LOT more than 20% post mitigation. Like... a fragton more.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[deleted]

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

And that's why I suggested to nerf the lifesteal values to compensate.

Nerf how? 10% is the lowest you can have without it being "tiny". Unlike spellvamp, AD champions have three general lifesteal items and one melee specific. And BT is supposed to be THE lifesteal item so it should be higher than the rest.

No, with how much lifesteal there is in the game making it premitigation is just a bad idea unless they start making grievous wounds semi-core.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

{quoted}

No, with how much lifesteal there is in the game making it premitigation is just a bad idea unless they start making grievous wounds semi-core.

To be fair, Morell is on every mages item list.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tXuE8kig,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-16T06:16:25.849+0000)

To be fair, Morell is on every mages item list.

-40% healing. Its not a lot vs premitigation unless they also have healing. And morellos needs you to get them below 40% health in the first place.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

True but look it at this way, once they get to 40%, they won't easily recover to a non ergency in their health bar.

EDIT: Urgent* Sorry. 12 in the morning. Already quoted so I am just putting it here.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tXuE8kig,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-16T06:23:48.765+0000)

True but look it at this way, once they get to 40%, they won't easily recover to a non ergency in their health bar.

well... Say someone gets 25% premitigation lifesteal instead of 35% postmitigation. 800 premitigation; 200 800 post mitigation (50% damage reduction); 160

Thats 40 HP per hit, on attack speeds which can easily reach 1.8. The difference might seem small, but its VERY large due to attack speed.

DeathBurst1 votes

You can go below 10%, the "tiny" argument is irrelevant.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

You can go below 10%, the "tiny" argument is irrelevant.

How do you justify the small number then? 2% on vamp scepter, 5% on the complete item? Its so small to actually feel good.

DeathBurst1 votes

What "feels" good isn't reading the number when you press C. It's seeing your life go back up when you AA. And it would go up even with 5 or 7% if it's premitigation...

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Question: Is spell vamp even that huge of a stat in the game? The only item I can think of that comes close to spell vamp Hex-Tech Gunblade but then again, I am thinking of items. I am aware that you can get the stat in masteries but is spell vamp even huge for magic damage champions that is neither Vlad or Akali? Just a question. Life steal is obvious way more popular so this is me being curious.

jmp2311 votes

Morg if built full ap has crazy spell vamp

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

I have heard of that (Haven't fought a lot of full AP Morgs) but where does it come from? Is it natural in her stats to have spell vamp?

Julanus1 votes

Morgana's passive gives her 10/15/20% Spell Vamp.

10% at Level 1, 15% at Level 7, and 20% at Level 13.

Also, to your question above, currently, the only (non-champion specific) sources of Spell Vamp are Quintessence Runes and the Vampirism mastery (3rd tier of Ferocity, also gives Lifesteal).

However, at once time, Spell Vamp was actually a stat which could be built in-game and was on two items, Hextech Gunblade and Will of the Ancients.

Will of the Ancients was a Mage item that went through a few iterations (at one time, it gave a Spell Vamp aura), but ultimately, it was removed from the game for being problematic to balance.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Didn't know about Morg's Passive. What fun. As I thought, spell vamp isn't really much of a stat in the game other than it being on Quintessences, the Mastery and Champion specific.

How hard is it to balance exactly? Thinks of Akali Never mind.

Julanus1 votes

The main argument was it made mages difficult to balance since they were "intended" to be squishy sources of damage through abilities.

It was also stated that the reason there were no AD Spell Vamp items was because it was too difficult to balance.

In my opinion, I don't feel like it actually would have been as difficult to balance as it'd been presented to be.

What makes it even weirder is how every item currently with a Spell Vamp-esque effect has Attack Damage (Death's Dance, Hextech Gunblade, and Blade of the Ruined King, even Elixir of Wrath, all heal from damage dealt by abilties).

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Hmm. Guess we can add that to the conspiracy against Riot and their hatred/disinterests in mages.

To the topic at hand, I see where you are coming from. Thank you for this information. I guess the only real question is how is it too hard to balance? The argument that mages are suppose to be a squishy source a damage is not as valid when you consider that marksmen are a squishy source of dps damage.

DeathBurst1 votes

Lifesteal is basically balanced around Tanks. Lifesteal against squishies is irrelevant.

You say: "this makes it opressive against squishies that can't instantly 100-0 you". But what are those? Mostly other ADCs that also have Lifesteal, or Battle Mages that aren't supposed to 1v1 ADC anyway. Burst mages/Artillery/Assassins CAN one shot ADCs, and other classes do stack Armor.

Would implementing your suggestion be a bad thing? No. But it would create a lot of disruption for no meaningful gain in the end. So it's not worth the work.

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