The Dynamic Queue Roundtable breakdown

Lost R··1 votes·777 views

So I finally listened to the round table discussion. I tend to not listen to these since I've already inferred most of the situation and issues through intuition and simply understanding most of the mechanics without someone having to explain it to me. And good god, people downvoted that video like shit. I wonder how many people actually listened to it or understood what was being said? I know from experience that the linguistic proficiency of the community has cratered to an unbelievably abysmal level, but holy shit. I shudder for the continued existence of humanity if you are even a fraction of its successors.

To summarize, the crisis with the queue system right now can be summarized in one word: supply. Think about how many people go for each role, and then imagine that is just part of a larger equation that the system has to work with, along with factors like your MMR, division, if you are in a premade and possibly your location on this planet, country, state/province and even city (to minimize ping issues). Along with a combination of other factors I might not know about, the system tries to match people up like it's a dating website. This is easy to do at lower divisions (even with the abysmally long wait times), where the pool size of players is relatively large, but as you get higher up, that pool gets smaller and smaller, and as a result, the queue times get longer.

There is literally nothing you can do to deal with a shortage in player supply. It is a resource you ALWAYS have to work with and around, and as Riot admitted in the video (that people like to just ignore), they learned new information ABOUT that supply after they made lofty promises. You can scream and stamp your feet all you want, but them's the breaks, kids. Riot can't alter reality.

Riot explained that the Dynamic Queue has proven to reduce toxicity when it came to champion and role select; I can vouch for this personally. Before the new system, literally every other game would almost require to be nulled because someone decided to sabotage the game because they couldn't go Yasuo mid. Now I haven't seen hide or hair of any of those fuckers.

At the same time, it brought up issues that are arguably even bigger. No one is supporting anymore, especially when you can now avoid being drafted to the role (save for dire circumstances for the system, from what I'm hearing), you have a good chance of being paired up with and against premades, and as was stated earlier, the higher divisions are basically deadlocked with enormously lengthy wait times due to a small pool size.

Solo Queue might be a pipe dream at this point because of the small pool sizes in the LOWER divisions alone because of player preferences (read: no one is the support), let alone the higher divisions. Releasing Solo Queue might actually just make the situation WORSE, as they've heavily implied and explicitly stated at least once in a red post.

The best way to visualize this is like a pyramid. At the bottom is bronze, and at the very top is Master. Now imagine it segmented like a food groups pyramid, one for each major division in the game. now imagine they're all filled with water, and you have buckets to fill up from each segment. You functionally have an infinite amount of buckets, but only a finite amount of water; whatever is in that pyramid.

Now on top of that, each measurable volume of water (1 volume being a person) has an array of tags to it, and you have to match them in buckets with people with similar tags. It's pretty easy at the bottom of the pyramid, where the total volume is massive, but at the top of the pyramid, where it's tiny, you have a much smaller total volume. If you try to treat the top the same as the bottom, you very quickly run into a dead end where not enough people match up to be put in the same bucket (the bucket being a queue).

Now imagine Solo Queue is a thing. Suddenly you have TWO pyramids with the same volume of water shared between them, and you can't combine water from both pyramids. You'll run into that dead end a lot faster, and more than likely a lot further down the pyramid.

From what I understand, the system tries to work around this, which is why people end up getting put in roles they didn't call for, just so there's a game at some point in this lifetime.

Something has to be compromised or sacrificed somewhere. I don't know what solutions to offer, aside from maybe making the system a bit more indiscriminate when it comes to matching players across divisions (after X amount of games in silver, you'll start facing off against players in gold, for example), all of which might already have been attempted already, but the bullshit about this being some money-grubbing conspiracy or a contrived attempt by Riot to kill off their one and only game for something else down the line has to stop.

3 Comments

glitchyglu1 votes

I personally like DQ better, I don't have to worry about trolls, and I can pick my role. That said I would say that for me personally I don't care how long my queue time is as long as I get what I ask for (so I can play my best) and I get placed with people around my skill level (aka not facing b5s or plat+). This way when I do get thrust into a game I don't get stuck in a role I suck at coughADCcough and my team doesn't get steamrolled by much higher rated players. The problem I have with the current system is that for higher rated players who have to go through these long queue times, the longer you are in queue the more relaxed the system becomes to restrictions like role select/mmr/rank/solo vs 5 mans/so on. This means that I don't choose to compromise just one aspect, but that if the time aspect is compromised then it will auto compromise everything else to slow the bleeding of the time aspect.

In a way full LCS teams queueing up together is probably just the smartest way to do it just because you won't have to sacrifice anything except for time, as opposed to having a queue system that throws all of its "benefits" out the window just to not have too bad of a weakness. I don't think that there is a way to fix this system without making 5 man queues the way to avoid drawbacks. If you make people take 3+ roles to make it easier to find a match, but it would also give less of a chance to get your preferred role than the old system, and a one-trick might refuse to play unless they can get a 5 man so they can get said one-trick. If you make mmr/rank lower priority you get what happened to Scarra which is a shitty situation for everyone. Then there is the option to just make queue times longer but make sure good games are had when they are found. While I prefer this last one, it doesn't match everyone's needs. Someone might only have a few hours a week to spare on league due to being busy with work or school or family stuff, and that person probably doesn't want to spend half that time sitting in queue. This would further lower the amount of people trying to queue up.

I think the new system solves a lot of issues when it comes to toxicity, and as someone who almost left because I hated how toxic the game had become the new system is very refreshing. I don't face the issues that master level players are facing, but that doesn't mean these issues don't matter. If Riot can't find a good way to fix these issues then the high level play might just start to crumble, and given how esports centric this game is that would be awful for league as a game and riot as a company. I would hate to see that happen as I enjoy the game and want to continue enjoying it for a long time. I doubt this is some master conspiracy to release a new game, that just makes no sense. Why would a company give up a massively popular and lucrative game just to roll the dice on a new (untested) product? And not only that but trying to sell said product coming out of super negative PR from actively killing their previous one? No way, doesn't make sense. Riot is trying people, but they have trapped themselves in a complex system trying to fix the issues ALL OF US WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT BEFORE and they just haven't quite figured out how to make it work to perfection yet. That said they have listened to us, and they made these changes specifically to address issues we have had and expressed in the past.

Lost R1 votes

It's the rarest of events that I encounter someone in this community who speaks even a fragment of logic. Good on you, mate.

The good thing about the new system is it did cut back on toxicity. I'm glad now I don't have to worry every game that the Yasuo mid only guy will try and sabotage the game because he didn't get the one and only champion/role he plays.

The problem is this system only works with an ideal pool of players, and the player pool in League is anything but ideal. Even with the effectively limitless numbers down in the bowels of the tier pyramid, it runs into the same problem each and every time: too much of one thing, too little of another. That's why you see supports wait an average of <1 second, while anyone else in the exact same scenario can wait for over half an hour. That does not bode well for the health of the game, not just from a gameplay standpoint, but also from the player standpoint.

the longer you are in queue the more relaxed the system becomes to restrictions like role select/mmr/rank/solo vs 5 mans/so on.

This is more or less what put the nails into Dominion's coffin in the first place. The fact that we're seeing that effect bleed over to the MAIN GAME is a dreadful prospect. It also makes me wonder how much of it is bleeding into the lower divisions, due to the aforementioned number disparity between roles. It's one thing if it's in Diamond and up, where the pool size is Dominion-level small and spread out across the planet but it's another if it crops up in Bronze and Silver, where the largest concentration of players are. If that's the case, then this system was not only doomed from the very beginning, but the game itself has hit a logistical dead end.

Riot is trying people, but they have trapped themselves in a complex system trying to fix the issues ALL OF US WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT BEFORE and they just haven't quite figured out how to make it work to perfection yet. That said they have listened to us, and they made these changes specifically to address issues we have had and expressed in the past.

That's the part people, again, like to just ignore in favor of fantasies where Riot is a corrupt money-grubbing company that enjoys fucking over its consumer base. They like to imagine Riot got rid of Dominion on a dare, rather than "We can't figure out a way to salvage it, and nobody's playing it, so might as well do away with it (for now, at least)". The community has a victimization complex where everything is a conspiracy to screw them over. There's no reasoning with that kind of person. Nobody realizes that this is a constant learning experience for everyone involved, ESPECIALLY Riot; we're just along for the ride.

Then there is the option to just make queue times longer but make sure good games are had when they are found. While I prefer this last one, it doesn't match everyone's needs. Someone might only have a few hours a week to spare on league due to being busy with work or school or family stuff, and that person probably doesn't want to spend half that time sitting in queue. This would further lower the amount of people trying to queue up.

Coming from someone who regularly finds teams composed of all AD melee assassins, all of whom demand that they get all the kills and everyone else fall in line behind them, it's almost impossible to qualify a good game before a game could even be made. People are largely in charge of the kind of attitude they'll bring with them; I've seen too many games where people decide they're going to have a bad day and we end up spending twenty minutes with this guy sitting in the fountain or sabotaging other lanes talking endlessly about how tilted he is. How many threads do you see where people ask for a self-mute button or talk endlessly about how they mute everyone they come across (by the way, muting is blocking, and that more or less removes that person from appearing in a future queue with you, further exacerbating the whole queue issue).

I'm at the point where I can do just about any lane and role, though mid lane is my weakest point because the Yasuo mid or feed guy exists, and I don't get much opportunity there. I just pick fill in Dynamic Queue, even knowing that 99.999% of the time I'm going to get support, so I don't care what role I get, so long as I get into a game. Waiting for that absolute golden opportunity is a fool's errand; that sort of mentality is what kills more games than anything else in League. People have to give something up if they want gameplay to be anything more than staring at a pale blue client.

Unfortunately, compromise is a filthy word nowadays, something nobody wants to do, and I think that's the source of the problem. It didn't make the Yasuo mid or feed guy go away; it just segregated them, and there are millions of them out there. Now we're in a deadlocked scenario where we either continue the system and exacerbate the deadlock situation, or we get rid of it and force the Yasuo mid or feed guys into the same room and tell them to sort it out. As much as I like the Dynamic Queue, I'd almost prefer the latter just so more people will learn how to support without throwing a galactic shit fit and I can branch out to other roles more often.

Dehitay1 votes

You do realize that the supply problem is massively enhanced by complications of premade matchmaking? A matter of fact, the very reason they limited the number of people you can have in premades at diamond+ is because of this reality. You can actually reduce a significant amount of complexity in matchmaking by taking premades out of the equation. Which will result in quicker queue times and more balanced games.

Also, there a very likely cause and effect misunderstanding about dynamic queue and the reduction of toxicity. One that's made even more obvious by your very example of less toxicity. You say there's a lot less problems like people sabatoging games cause they couldn't go Yasuo mid but that's a direct result of of the new role selection and has nothing to do with dynamic queue. New role selection is actually the most likely reason that toxicity has gone down in comparison to dynamic queue.

And while I admit that dynamic queue and solo queue aren't going to thrive side by side, the very reason why is yet another reason to question dynamic queue's existence. Dynamic queue can only thrive in the absence of solo queue. Solo queue however can survive completely on its own. If you release both systems and one thrives while the other crashes and burns, most people would consider the survivor to be the superior system.

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