And that is Riot, the reason why you are so out of touch with the game and its community because flash+tibbers is what nobody likes about Annie.
RiotMeddler77 votesWe don't think anyone likes Annie flash ulting onto them and bursting them down. We do think LoL needs some champions that provide reliable CC though as a both a balancing lever against some types of champion and as one of the ways to make short range damage focused kits functional (other options including untargetability, inherent tankiness, massive temporary defense etc). As a result we believe it's worth accepting the limited counterplay you have once Annie's in range of you, or when she has Flash up, frustrating though that can be.
Helmight26 votesThe issue I have with this is that Annie's effective stun range with Flash is too large to really play around. You end up having to stay WAY off the minions if she has her stun charged, and since the buff never falls off you don't get an opportunity to just wait it out. Getting two stacks of Silver Bolts or Z-Drive Resonance sucks and means you get zoned, but at least they'll eventually fall off and you can come back to the wave. With Annie though, there's never a safe moment once she gets it charged.
What're your thoughts on letting Pyromania fall off if Annie doesn't expend the buff in (X) seconds?
Jacknife5 votesThis would kill off support Annie entirely... and I'm not entirely opposed to the prospect.
It Hertz When IP2 votesIsn't Support Annie one of the support picks with the shittiest winrate anyway? I know winrate isn't everything, but last I saw it was at something like 46%.
Sightless666 votesWhat're your thoughts on letting Pyromania fall off if Annie doesn't expend the buff in (X) seconds?
They addressed this. It might work for laning but compromises the rest of the game. It would basically force Annie to use her abilities as spam to keep it up for initiation, and that's not a very interesting way of gating the ability. Finding something that only touches laning would be the goal.
Helmight26 votesRiot's actually done something like that with the Darius rework. His ultimate only resets itself for a few seconds after getting a kill - until he hits level 16. Then it "unlocks", fully resetting and costing zero mana to cast if he scores a kill with it.
I see no reason Annie couldn't have a similar treatment. From levels 1-10, Pyromania has a timer on it once primed, and will fall off if an ability wasn't used in that timespan. At level 11, Annie's passive "unlocks" and remains at the ready until her next spellcast.
Sure, it's more awkward than Darius's rework and adds a bit to her burden of knowledge, but given how simple Annie currently is I'd say it's a cost she can well-afford to pay.
Edit: Whoa downvotes. Let's have a discussion about this, guys. I'm honestly curious what y'all think about adding this to Annie's kit.
Llanite1 votesMana cost reduction is 100% for the sake of convenience.
What you suggested totally changes her gameplay after 11.
Helmight4 votesThe main issue with Annie as-is is that if she can hold her stun indefinitely, she becomes too overbearing in lane. If she can't hold her stun indefinitely, she becomes much weaker later in the game. Sure, it changes her playstyle entirely after she hits level 11, but it solves that particular problem.
I'm open to suggestions if you've got a more elegant solution. :)
Llanite6 votesNo one holds the stun indefinitely, unless he has faker's level of last hitting. Among all on-demand CC, Annie sacrifices the most for it (Other being Pantheon, Lulu, Fidd, Taric, Jax who can freely cast spell and have better last hitting technique).
If you cannot stay out of her range, you are counterpicked. She's supposed to dominate glass melee. It's her niche, nothing wrong with it. I'm against all sorts of artificial intervention because rookies refuse to learn the game.
Voluug132 votesIf you cannot stay out of her range, you are counterpicked. She's supposed to dominate glass melee. It's her niche, nothing wrong with it. I'm against all sorts of artificial intervention because rookies refuse to learn the game.
This is the truth, yet melee assassin refuse to learn to play the game, starting from champion pick screen.
Sariat17 votesIt would basically force Annie to use her abilities as spam to keep it up for initiation, and that's not a very interesting way of gating the ability.
Cough Ryze Cough
Sightless6611 votesYes, because Ryze is our paragon of good design choices.
Nameless Voice56 votesReliable CC on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, but combined with the burst to instantly delete someone, it leans towards an unhealthy kit.
That said, champions with reliable AoE CC like this are a band-aid solution for a bigger problem. They need to be in the game because there are champions who have too much mobility and don't have any meaningful risk built into that mobility.
You can argue that e.g. you need something like Annie's stun to deal with champions like Kalista - but I'd argue the opposite. Champions with Kalista-levels of mobility should not exist in the first place. A good mobility move is one with inherent risk - the champion has reasons to use it other than escaping, and it has enough cost/cooldown that they are vulnerable when they use it offensively. Any champion with multiple dashes (or mini-cooldown dashes like Kalista/Yasuo) violate this.
There's a reason that most of the oft-complained about champions are ones capable of multiple mobility moves in a very short space of time.
RoodToob7 votesActually, people complain the most about champions that kill them. But mobility is a close second. Its why zed or graves is hated more than someone like Ahri
manbearswine7 votesActually, people complain the most about champions that kill them. But mobility is a close second. Its why zed or graves is hated more than someone like Ahri
That's not true,I easily hate ahri more than graves(and quite frankly 100% of the graves hate is cause he is too strong,which is the natural state of things) and even zed.
Fucking unpunishable garbage,no risk high reward champions are just BS.
RoodToob1 votesYou might, and i totally understand why, but i just mean you'll notice people complain more about champs with high damage like zed
manbearswine4 votesYou might, and i totally understand why, but i just mean you'll notice people complain more about champs with high damage like zed
I'm not sure about zed,I don't know if people hate him more because they don't like playing against him,or because he is in bed with riot.
But anyway,if we go by damage output(as in "damage dealt to champions" in the end of the game) zed ranks quite low,and people don't hate most of the champions who rank high here(thing like karthus/ziggs/velkoz/zyra).
Knoyle10 votesI hate Zed because He basically has little to no risk while farming and then gets to delete squishies almost as fast as any other assassin. Even Leblanc has her mana to consider. Fizz has his as well since his only waveclear is also his escape and drinks his mana like nursing baby. But Zed gets to farm from a distance, poke in safety, has no mana restrictions so he can do it all laning phase. It's like there is no actual draw back for him besides being less relevant when you hit late game IF you hit late game in this season. He is the very reason I picked up Fizz at all. Same with me taking Xin mid against Yasuo. I take great pleasure in making their laning phases a living hell because apparently not many other champions can do it as hard as Fizz or Xin.
RoodToob2 votesSorry, **High burst ** damage is what is complained, but damage overall does the trick. I think they complain less about 
is probably due to the mobility (creds to you and nameless voice there) I just see overall more complains about damage, but mobility definitely does get complained about. You got me thinking its more of a mix. But there are some champions that have burst and mobility (
to name two) that i see very little about. hmmm
And i feel like that in bed with Riot isn't really true, but they wouldn't try to destroy him with nerf. But those typically only come after a patch of complete dominance (4.20 Warwick ) or a long time in the spotlight (GP is a recent example, though he's alright still)
manbearswine3 votesSorry, **High burst ** damage is what is complained, but damage overall does the trick. I think they complain less about
I mean some burst mages have a very high burst(like syndra,or lux),and they aren't complained much about,as far as kha/shaco go,they are mostly percieved as weak,and I remember that when they were perceived as strong there were A LOT of complaints about both of them.
I mean take rengar for example,most of the complains about him died out,and most of it due to him being seen(...and rightly so) as weaker,his kit is still the same cancer it's always been,just weaker.
And i feel like that in bed with Riot isn't really true, but they wouldn't try to destroy him with nerf. But those typically only come after a patch of complete dominance (4.20 Warwick ) or a long time in the spotlight (GP is a recent example, though he's alright still)
Nah it's very true,the amount of attention he gets is absolutely amazing,there are champions(quite a few actually,and many without inherent problems) which have been considered shit(I mean by people who know what they are talking about,not by idiots who took a glimpse at winrates and now think they know the champ+role inside out) for a very long time and haven't received a fraction of the attention zed gets,he's very much in bed with riot.
Nameless Voice19 votesWell, consider the champions who fit my criteria: have multiple moveblocks or a single one with a very low cooldown and low risk/cost:
Every single one of these have been regularly complained about whenever they are strong or in the meta (and often even when they are weak or not in the meta.)
RoodToob8 votesMaybe, but all of those champions also deal a whole lot of damage, which also fits my criteria lol [slayer-jinx-wink]
Nameless Voice16 votesAnd when a champion has both of these things, safe mobility and lots of damage - then people will hate them even more.
LankPants3 votesKalista's damage isn't that high relative to her class's. It's actually pretty low end for an ADC.
RoodToob1 votesshe does do less damage, if not for her e. Its the reason she scales well. That stacked with a runaans and a bork means she always will do good damage
Masala Chai3 votesShe doesn't scale very well at all. Her crits scale with 180% of her AD, with IE only 225% of her AD.
Twitch deals plenty of damage with Runaan's and BORK, I would even say he's sleeper OP.
You can even clearly see that by statistics despite her above average average playerbase games, her winrate is rather sad. Damage dealt out of all ADCs is 19th out of 19. http://champion.gg/champion/Kalista
Shavidar2 votesAaaand if you remove all those Champions, the game gets boring. There would be always the same old dash with Champion XYZ = Champion YXZ. No thanks.
Nameless Voice6 votesI disagree. Having less champions with extreme mobility would allow a lot more champions to be viable and increase diversity in games.
Also, playing against (and as) champions with no free escapes is far more exciting, since there's a real sense of risk and reward. It's also more interesting to watch - one of the most well-regarded games was that UoL game where they all picked immobile champions.
The Yetii Rider10 votesWe don't think anyone likes Annie flash ulting onto them and bursting them down. We do think LoL needs some champions that provide reliable CC though as a both a balancing lever against some types of champion and as one of the ways to make short range damage focused kits functional (other options including untargetability, inherent tankiness, massive temporary defense etc). As a result we believe it's worth accepting the limited counterplay you have once Annie's in range of you, or when she has Flash up, frustrating though that can be.
You like some champions who provide reliable CC. Just not Rengar. Or Veigar. Or Sion. Or Soraka. Or Taric. Or any other champion who had reliable CC until you removed it from them.
Voluug131 votesOr Veigar. Or Sion. Or Soraka.
Wut.
Veigar's cage can be easily avoided because delay, we all know Sion counters himself and is unreliable in lane.
And Soraka's Equinox is not ''reliable'' at all.
BastionKross4 votesHe's talking about them before they were reworked. Sion used to have a point and click stun like Taric, Veigar's cage used to be instant instead of on a delay, and Soraka used to have a point and click single target silence.
L0ve Is Blue7 votesTL:DR
The only reason we keep Annie flash stun even tought the whole community hate it to counter over mobile champions we don't want to change.
PDE5 Inhib12 votesHOLD THE PHONE
So you literally killed Veigar's stun for the SAME EXACT reason that you are saying you want to keep Annie's.
That literally makes no sense.
The Queen Viper7 votes[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhib,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tTpXAMBe,comment-id=00040009,timestamp=2016-03-30T02:20:12.926+0000)
That literally makes no sense.
You expect RITO to make sense when it comes to balancing stuff?
Dude, c'mon. :P
They have no clue.
PDE5 Inhib6 votesI honestly don't get it. I'm fine with having CC to counter mobile champs, it's actually a good thing. But they killed Veigar's stun because he could nuke you if you hit it....but Annie can do the same exact thing, except her's is fucking easier to hit. Not too mention that Annie has other CC abilities even if they did change her ult. One of them is a point and click stun, which is much better against mobility anyway.
You know what they say, "you're promoted to a level of incompetence"...and it's completely true.
Voluug133 votesTo be fair Annie's CC is extremely short ranged, single target, or in a very small area.
Compared to Veigar's, the only thing it has above it its the damage tied to it.
PDE5 Inhib1 votesOne of her CC's is single target. The other two are AoE.
And Veigar's stun was relatively easy to dodge anyway. It wasn't he hole cage. His E was more of a zoning tool than a stun.
Voluug132 votesThe other two are AoE.
Yeah, but they have quite the small area of effect. Unlike Veigar's that also worked as a zoning tool. I mean, yeah, it sucks they gutted Event Horizon so hard, but Annie's AoEs are pretty small.
PDE5 Inhib2 votesThe reason for gutting Veigar's Even Horizon was because "he could stun you and nuke you". Annie can literally do the same....only her stuns are a lot easier to hit.
Leetri2 votesVeigar's CC had longer range, didn't require you to burn a 5 minute CD to use, is a regular ability and not an ultimate and also had a larger AoE. The only thing Annie's Flash-Tibbers has over Veigar's stun is that it deals damage.
PDE5 Inhib4 votesVeigar's CC had longer range, didn't require you to burn a 5 minute CD to use
Ok, as long as Annie has her stun up, you literally can't go anywhere near her. So the range argument doesn't hold weight with me.
is a regular ability
I'm sorry, but did you forget about Annie's 2 'regular ability' CCs?
also had a larger AoE
The stun area actually wasn't that large. Hence why it was more of a zoning tool to keep people away than it was a stun.
Voluug133 votesShe cant keep her stun forever. And even there, she is supposed to counter glass melee. You arent supposed to get close to her.
I'm sorry, but did you forget about Annie's 2 'regular ability' CCs?
You mean the Single Target Q or the extremely short, ''Annie needs to basically hug you'' range W?
The stun area actually wasn't that large. Hence why it was more of a zoning tool to keep people away than it was a stun.
The area of effect is way biggest that Annie's. Yeah, gutting it was a bad thing, but they are pretty different abilities, on champions that fulfill different roles. They cant be simply compared because both bring CC.
Velasan3 votesWe don't think anyone likes Annie flash ulting onto them and bursting them down. We do think LoL needs some champions that provide reliable CC though as a both a balancing lever against some types of champion and as one of the ways to make short range damage focused kits functional (other options including untargetability, inherent tankiness, massive temporary defense etc). As a result we believe it's worth accepting the limited counterplay you have once Annie's in range of you, or when she has Flash up, frustrating though that can be.
I just want to say that I do like the Annie flash capability. There are plenty of champions that do well with flash burst combos. The only disconnect I have with Annie is the fire shield being weaker and working on Tibbers. I suppose it was intended to add extra play, but it really doesn't do much for her play style and no one goes out of their way to save a Tibbers.
Anyways, I agree, the game needs champions like Annie.
Weasel Kensei7 votesWe don't think anyone likes Annie flash ulting onto them and bursting them down. We do think LoL needs some champions that provide reliable CC though as a both a balancing lever against some types of champion...
I feel like Iv seen this very excuse from you before.
Riot - "Annie is the cornerstone to balance for all the broke stuff we put out, without her you cant counter the broke champions flying around with 12 dashes, Annie has to be able to pop people like a water-balloon while stunned or the game balance will fall apart."
Annie isn't providing "CC" in most cases. Shes deleting people with them not having the ability to fight back. Annie is basically an assassin, she rolls up, burst her target down, walks off... skips, she skips off. She kills stuff faster than Diana, and from further away, and more safely in many cases.
So what the game needs is reliable CC sure, if were forced to tolerate all the "outplay" champs. OR... or maybe, we could dial back the mobility... Id say creep, but it seem like mobility "many zero cooldown dashes" as opposed to creep that new champs get released with. Almost as if it was an arms race to beat each others champs in overpoweredness/mobility.
The notion that you guys sit around and look at a champion design and say "Sure is mobile, but it's ok ANNIE IS IN THE GAME so it will all work out" frightens me.
Voluug133 votesAnnie is basically an assassin, she rolls up, burst her target down, walks off... skips, she skips off. She kills stuff faster than Diana, and from further away, and more safely in many cases.
Please show me where in Annie's kit I cant find the mobility to be an assassin.
Or is ''assassin'' the new word for burst mages?
Because last time I checked assassins where more defined by their mobility.
EDIT: Also, Diana as 800+ ranges on both her main spells, while Annie has at best 600.
The only reason Annie can delete you without flash is when she counterpicks you. Which is intended.
Jefftiffy2 votesWe don't think anyone likes Annie flash ulting onto them and bursting them down. We do think LoL needs some champions that provide reliable CC though as a both a balancing lever against some types of champion and as one of the ways to make short range damage focused kits functional (other options including untargetability, inherent tankiness, massive temporary defense etc). As a result we believe it's worth accepting the limited counterplay you have once Annie's in range of you, or when she has Flash up, frustrating though that can be.
Except her range isn't that short. It's 1k+ units plus flash range for her combo. That is by no means short range.
